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Post by dale on Sept 3, 2006 14:07:07 GMT -5
Again, I submit a question for you and hope to hear from the street preachers on this. While the last questions, as of late, brought a disappointing lack of response, with only 3 people as of now, especially when I made good my promise not to respond on said thread or downgrade the answers, I hope to see more feedback down there, as well as here. Again, I will make no response on this thread to whatever answers are posted.
Ler's talk about persecution. I read and unlike some of the others of the axis of evil, did not respond on these threads in these sections. Your ballpark and your rules. But let;s look at this.
I submit you people really do not know what peril or persecution is. I read the posts. Whar do you have? An arrest for disturbing the peace or a fine that usually gets thrown out in court? Being asked to leave a foeign country where like it or not, you are often a guest? Having someone laugh at you, downgrade you or joke about you on a college campus. Having someone refuse your tracts?
"Will you die for him?" )" A quote from the Seventh Sign
"Hmm. we don;t know how you'd be in emergencies. I was thinking, this is the right place. I've got a way you can show the men." Indio in For A Few Dollars More.
"To live is Cjrist and to die is gain," Somewhere in the Bible.
I submit that for all your talk and bluster, in a situation where you really are confronted with the opportunity to die and gain, the lot of you would turn yellow. You would back down, run or deny your faith, only to cry and blubber about it, later repent and try to make amends once you are out of danger. I submit that for all your talk and bluster, in a real life situation, "we don't khow you'd be in emergencies" I submit that the bulk of you would be all talk if it really came down to the wire. Granted, there might be a real man somewhere among you, but in such a situation as I pose to you, to deny or die, you would turn and run.
You are all great at facing suffering for christ within your comfort zone, such as on the college campus squares and parks where you are going to be at least partially protected from any major threat. Why are you not all in Agfghainstan, like those two chicks a couple years ago who came close to ending up martyrs? Why are you not going into the jungles or wilds of Colombia, Ecuador and Bolivia to witness to the coke business druglords? Why don't you try Iraq and Saudi Arabia? Why don;t you hit China? Why don;t you go try to witness to the Al Quieda people?
Unless I am missing something, I see nothing to truly impress me on your persecution page. I only see a bunch of people crying about how one was told to move on and not pass out tracts, another was laughed at or someone faced the anger of a pastor's wife for handing out Bibles at a church camp (That one kind of throws me a little too, but still, if this is the worst that happens to you, one can hardly picture your situation as comparable to the two chicks in Afghanistan or those four or five people who went down to South America several decades ago (from the book Through the Gates Of Splender if memory serves me right) and all got speared. You all do not even come close.
My questions are simple.
Would you die for Him? Really. Don;t just give me the fluff. Look into yourself and give me feedback. Would you die for him? Again, I contest the bnulk of you would not, after allw as said and done.
If youw ould die for him, then whya re you here? Let's skip the argument about "Sick people need a doctor and there are loads of people here who need the Gospel. In the uSA there is a church on every streetcorner or so, so myself, the other axis of evil people and most of the unsaved could probably take responsibility for our own actions,s tumble into a church and get reborn without you peopel to help us, if we were so inclined. The same is not true in many of the danger zones I have listed beforehand. So why are you not there instead? Why are you not really seeking out the chance to live in christ and die in gain?
I contend the bulk of youa re all hot air and parables, but little else besides that.
So would you die for Him? If so, why are you here, wasting time on this board? Why are you not out living really dangerously for Christ?
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Post by oap001 on Sept 3, 2006 16:03:09 GMT -5
I don't have time to read such a long post . I just got back from the jym and now I'm off to Church again. See ya!!
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Post by biblethumper on Sept 4, 2006 16:36:11 GMT -5
Repent.
Turn from your wickedness and place your Faith in Jesus Christ.
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Post by messengermicah on Sept 4, 2006 16:46:34 GMT -5
Good question Dale. I don't think any of us will deny that the persecution we receive in this country is not worth mentioning compared to that of other countries.
I have been arrested (as well as my wife), and the case was not thrown out, so I did have to fight it. I risked spending a few months in jail.
I have been physically assaulted several times while preaching.
As far as willing to die, I am absolutely willing to die. I am usually at least threatened with assault every time I go out to preach. Living in a large American city and confronting homosexuals, club owners, gangsters, drunkards, etc. in their sin is risky business.
To me, dying is not such a big deal. The difficult thing is these guys in other countries who are tortured for their faith.
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Post by SlowBro on Sept 4, 2006 17:49:53 GMT -5
Again, I will make no response on this thread to whatever answers are posted. I don't see why, it's your question. Feel free to respond, if not at least in email. Ler's talk about persecution. Oh I'm so glad you invited me to reply to this question (even though I'm not a street preacher) because this is a subject dear to my heart. I submit you people really do not know what peril or persecution is. AMEN that is so true! Look around America, will you find one pile of bloody rocks where a Christian was stoned for his beliefs? Where will you find the singed ground of a Christian burned at the stake? I submit that for all your talk and bluster, in a situation where you really are confronted with the opportunity to die and gain, the lot of you would turn yellow. You would back down, run or deny your faith, only to cry and blubber about it, later repent and try to make amends once you are out of danger. I submit that for all your talk and bluster, in a real life situation, "we don't khow you'd be in emergencies" I submit that the bulk of you would be all talk if it really came down to the wire. Granted, there might be a real man somewhere among you, but in such a situation as I pose to you, to deny or die, you would turn and run. That is so true man. It's a testimony that there is a vast difference between me and the Christ who set his face resolutely toward Jerusalem and said, "See, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the scribes, and they will condemn him to death and deliver him over to the Gentiles." (Mark 10:33 ESV) You are all great at facing suffering for christ within your comfort zone, such as on the college campus squares and parks where you are going to be at least partially protected from any major threat. Why are you not all in Agfghainstan, like those two chicks a couple years ago who came close to ending up martyrs? Why are you not going into the jungles or wilds of Colombia, Ecuador and Bolivia to witness to the coke business druglords? Why don't you try Iraq and Saudi Arabia? Why don;t you hit China? Why don;t you go try to witness to the Al Quieda people? Unless I am missing something, I see nothing to truly impress me on your persecution page. I only see a bunch of people crying about how one was told to move on and not pass out tracts, another was laughed at or someone faced the anger of a pastor's wife for handing out Bibles at a church camp (That one kind of throws me a little too, but still, if this is the worst that happens to you, one can hardly picture your situation as comparable to the two chicks in Afghanistan or those four or five people who went down to South America several decades ago (from the book Through the Gates Of Splender if memory serves me right) and all got speared. You all do not even come close. My questions are simple. Would you die for Him? Really. Don;t just give me the fluff. Look into yourself and give me feedback. Would you die for him? Again, I contest the bnulk of you would not, after allw as said and done. If youw ould die for him, then whya re you here? Let's skip the argument about "Sick people need a doctor and there are loads of people here who need the Gospel. In the uSA there is a church on every streetcorner or so, so myself, the other axis of evil people and most of the unsaved could probably take responsibility for our own actions,s tumble into a church and get reborn without you peopel to help us, if we were so inclined. The same is not true in many of the danger zones I have listed beforehand. So why are you not there instead? Why are you not really seeking out the chance to live in christ and die in gain? I contend the bulk of youa re all hot air and parables, but little else besides that. So would you die for Him? If so, why are you here, wasting time on this board? Why are you not out living really dangerously for Christ? First, recognize that there are differing strengths of faith. I for example have no problem engaging people on message boards but cannot even open my mouth to my wife's family! Second, recognize that there are indeed Christians who DO face death. My sister, for example; she just went back to China for the fourth or fifth time and will be there a year. She will face GENUINE prosecution by attending an illegal underground church. From my recent "Voice of the Martyrs" magazine (the focus this month is on Indonesia, the most populous Muslim country in the world): "In Indonesia, Yubelina was severely burned while fleeing from attackers, when she fell and splashed kerosene from her lamp onto her face and body..." (You should see the picture, her face is so grotesque it turns my stomach, yet she is grinning from ear to ear!) "In Bangledesh, Pastor Stephen Mir was shot in the face by radical Muslims..." "In Nigeria, Nvou was badly injured and lost her unborn child in an attack by radical Muslims..." "After finishing his work on a Saatu village plantation in Poso, Indonesia, 19-year-old Alfrianus Tompa was ambushed by four radical Muslims wielding swords. They viciously slashed the young Christian across the left side of his head, back and above his left heel..." "...a mob of 100 Muslims came to our church (...) and nailed boards over the doors and windows. (...) We thanked God that He allowed this to happen to us." Why don't Christians run into this fray? They are! From the magazine: "Young Indonesian Christian adults are now going to the islands most entrenched in Islam to quietly share Christ." My good friend and evangelistic mentor visited China last month to smuggle in over 1,000 Bibles! Voice of the Martyrs assists countless Christians who do indeed go into the dark corners of the world. I love their magazines and pray for those persecuted. Third, recognize that the body of Christ is multi-faceted. Some are called to be pastors here in the comfortable US, some are called to walk on their bare knees in gravel for 1.5 miles as Richard Wurmbrand did. Some earn big money here to then contribute to the printing of Bibles for China, some are burned at the stake for bringing the first english Bible into England, as William Tyndale did. Some mothers raise up men in the fear and admonition of the Lord who then begin nationwide revivals as Susannah Wesley did. Some engage in the intellectual battles here on the internet, some pray for the engagers. I think the primary problem is the lack of faith, as I mentioned. OH how I just WANT TO SAY ONE THING to my in-laws, much less my co-workers. Dale, I wish I had the boldness to be a street preacher in Afghanistan. OH how exciting to live and die for Christ in that way! Dale, you've rightly criticized us but you've also encouraged me. I want to grow more and more. I lack boldness because I doubt God. It is the uphill battle a Christian must struggle with. But engaging atheists and mormons on message boards is a terrific place to start. Finally, the good news is that when real persecution comes (I'm certain it will come to the USA one day) the Christian church spreads like wildfire. One of the fastest growing mission fields is China, where pastors are regularly arrested for printing Christian literature. Illegal underground house churches are EXPLODING! Yet here in America, where there's a steeple on every corner, we cannot even open our mouths to our relatives. In an odd way, I look forward to the blood of Islam which will inevitably spill onto our shores, because it will strengthen and purify the church. So I will continue to engage atheists in message boards and little by little I'll step out in boldness. Who knows? Perhaps God may grant you repentance and you'll be so filled with faith you'll hop the next plane to Afghanistan and preach on street corners! Would you do me a favor? Go to Persecution.com and sign up for the free monthly magazine. Read the testimonies of Christians who face death every day and -- amazingly -- praise God when they are beaten and deficated upon because it deepens assurance (Romans 5:3,4), because it leads to glory (1 Peter 4:13), because it is an amazing example (1 Thessalonians 1:6,7), because the reward is great (Matthew 5:11,12), and because it joins them in the sufferings of the greatest martyr ever, Jesus Christ Himself! So please, sign up and read the magazine.
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Post by ejuliot on Sept 4, 2006 18:11:21 GMT -5
Well, Dale I haven't talked to you yet, but I will answer this honestly... As for dying, at times I think it's easier to die for Christ than to live for him. If heaven is real (and I know it is) then death isn't the problem. Torture on the other hand is entirely different! If I alone in my flesh was left to torture you can bet that I would cave, but I trust that God would give grace to me as he has to many others who have been tortured for the sake of Christ. I can do nothing good on my own but through Christ we can do all things. So, in a sense you are right, humans are weak and it would be expected for them to fail but God is infinitely stronger and able to strengthen those who are physically and mentally tortured. There is nothing that is different between people in America or people in China/afghanistan... They are all weak, infallible, sinful, degenerate. I would never give any Christian credit for handling torture because all people are weak. Only God can receive the glory/credit for giving someone the strength to endure. As for going to another country...I hope to. In fact I might be headed to Ecuador next year. I sure hope that I would be able to preach the gospel to some coke business drug Lords (just a reminder some of us have spoken to dangerous criminals in the US they are not restricted to foreign countries).
Conclusion: Yes we are weak and by ourselves we would fail but in Christ we can do all things and if you ask any Christian who has been persecuted according to your definitions I am sure they would say the same. You are right American persecution is wimpy. And yes some of us are going to go to foreign countries in the future, those who do not are just as worthless and degenerate as those who go. We are all dust, and only God can can receive credit for any good that comes out of our lives.
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Post by SlowBro on Sept 4, 2006 19:32:56 GMT -5
Dale, one more thing: You mocked the suffering that US street preachers have faced but it's my firm belief that God counts every tear.
Yes even the overwhelming pain I experience from a tract that is rejected will be rewarded. And my God will avenge my pain.
I just pray that He opens the eyes of those whom reject the tract by some other method.
"Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you." (Matthew 5:11,12 ESV)
Sign up for the magazine. Stare into the grotesque scarred faces of those who really know what it is to live and die for Christ.
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Post by Jeffrey Olver on Sept 5, 2006 12:40:28 GMT -5
Dale wrote: "Why are you not all in Agfghainstan, like those two chicks a couple years ago who came close to ending up martyrs? Why are you not going into the jungles or wilds of Colombia, Ecuador and Bolivia to witness to the coke business druglords? Why don't you try Iraq and Saudi Arabia? Why don;t you hit China? Why don;t you go try to witness to the Al Quieda people?"
While I firmly believe the Church should be reaching the four corners of the earth...I am one of the few who is called and sees the need that the USA needs some cleaning up before we go and try to straighten out another country.
It takes thousands of US dollars to train up an american missionary and send him to another country ande support him. It takes almost pennies on the dollar to train up and support a national to be a missionary in his own country...I believe we should be doing more of that, so we can focus on our own country which is rotting to the core!
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abb
Full Member
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Post by abb on Sept 5, 2006 17:44:39 GMT -5
HAHAHAH! I thought no amount of money would be too much for teh Jebus?!
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Post by Jeffrey Olver on Sept 6, 2006 0:13:57 GMT -5
True, Abb. But we're to employ wisdom and good-stewardship when handling the money (by way or miracle or hard-earned) He brings our way.
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abb
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Post by abb on Sept 6, 2006 0:50:25 GMT -5
He doesn't bring anything anyway. You con people in order to get yourself money and a free ride through life.
Emotional persuasion.
Playing on logic is much much more difficult... emotional persuasion is the easiest type of persuasion out there... and with it, you fill collection plates everywhere!
So be proud, that you are a "man of god." Be proud that you are able to con a person into giving into his emotions and reaching into his wallet.
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Post by Jeffrey Olver on Sept 6, 2006 22:41:34 GMT -5
Abb...careful when you point the finger like that, but I'm guessing you were generalizing.
I think ANYone who preys on a person's emotions in order to bilk them of their hard-earned money is a crime against God. I've never, ever done anything like that. Never from behind the pulpit, or streetcorner. Ugh, I would be very upset if I ever saw anyone taking up a collection while preaching open air.
Anyone who's giving to an "offering," "collection," or "tithe" should not only do so out of obedience to the Lord and their goodwill and faith, should also employ their brain. Find out what exactly you're money is going to.
But that isn't the issue I meant to broach. What I was talking about the sad, sad state of missions support from Americans. Like I mentioned, I think we would do better to train up and support natives in their own countries instead of sending our own...But those who are indeed called to go to the four corners of the earth are supported by a sparse handfull of people here in the States.
It would be wise to use funds we're blessed with, like I said whether those funds be hardearned from labor, or as a 'miracle' (not in the chintzy form of the word), to raise up and support native missionaries in their own countries.
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abb
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Posts: 163
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Post by abb on Sept 6, 2006 23:00:58 GMT -5
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand you are a street preacher by profession? So you live by the donations of others?
Then you are guilty of this crime against God. Any preacher who lives off of donations is guilty of this crime.
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Post by Paul Mcgrade on Sept 7, 2006 1:15:37 GMT -5
If you would die for him, then why are you here? Tradition and fact say that most all 12 disciples were martyrs, not to mention the apostle Paul. Jesus says "The servant is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you" (John 15:20). Scripture says in another place "all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution"(2 Tim. 3:12). I don't want to lightly glance over these things. Real Christians will suffer persecution, even being killed for His name sake. Don't ever forget that. But remember this, Christianity isn't about dieing for Christ. O, you die, theres no doubt about it that a real Christian is crucified with Christ, that is the "normal christian life". But as far as physical death comes, the martyr's death, cant even the 9/11 terrorists do better than most of us in this? You see, your forgetting one thing. Its not about dieing for Him, though you might just do that. Your forgetting that eternal life isn't to die for Him, but to know Him. Do you know know Him? More importantly does He know you? Can you say that Christ lives in you?
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