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Post by Jesse Morrell on Nov 21, 2007 16:54:47 GMT -5
On campus the other day I made this statement, "this is the best God could do, given all the elements God deemed worthy to exist".
Is this universe the best that God could do? A student said, "aren't you limiting God's ability" to which I said, "If I said God could do better, but didn't do any better, then that would be slandering God's character."
All the problems in the world today are not caused by God, but are caused by mens freewill.
No doubt, God gave us the freewill. But that is because He thought that the risk was worth it. It valued the possibility that we would be loving over the possibility that we would be selfish. And freewill was necessary for love to exist.
So because there is no flaw in God's character, this universe is the best that God could have done.
The only way to ensure that there would be no sin, would be to take away men's freewill. And then we would be mere machines, puppets, robots, or zombies. And if God also did not give us freewill, there would be no love, in which case, that would be worst then the universe we currently live in.
So God has very wise and very loving reason for allowing the evils in the universe to exist.
When I said, "this is the best that God could do" one student said, "that's all I needed to know about your god" and then walked away.
But if he believes in another "god" who could have done better, yet chose not to do better, then that is saying that the character of this god is not good.
So no matter what "god" a person believes in, if God could have done better, (and still be consistent with wisdom and love) yet chose not to do better, then that is to slander the very character of God.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Nov 22, 2007 0:41:29 GMT -5
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Post by celebrity on Nov 26, 2007 12:52:19 GMT -5
Jessie, There is a scripture in the new testiment about avoiding Vain and foolish questions.
The Fact of the matter is, is that this worlds days are numbered as much as the heavens themselves are numbered. This shall pass and a new earth and heaven will replace the old.
I was slightly getting ready to touch on this in my thread Brian wneks hitchhickers guide to God and the Universe.
Here is how I play this out in my head.
I made an allusion to the center of the universe and how something pierced it and cause the spread of the stars across space. If the center of the universe is heaven symbolically, than perhaps the war that is already raging against heaven has already positioned the destruction of the world and heaven. The true question is how is God Going to stop the destruction or is he going to just start over.
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Post by cervyy on Dec 4, 2007 12:48:16 GMT -5
Is this universe the best that God could do? A student said, "aren't you limiting God's ability" to which I said, "If I said God could do better, but didn't do any better, then that would be slandering God's character." Err, wrong. Let's take a look at your hypothetical world for a sec. shall we? God makes the world, but does NOT do any better. Clearly here He CAN do better. So if this this world you say 'God COULD do better' then you are speaking the truth. Number one defense for defamation? THE TRUTH! Media Law for the win! So your above statement is false and therefor a lie. If you don't repent that lie will you go to hell? If I had never corrected your lie, but you still didn't know, would God still let you into heaven on the basis of pure ignorance? Or are little white lies acceptable? Just curious.
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Post by joem on Dec 4, 2007 13:24:43 GMT -5
For anything to be "better", one has to determine a unit of comparison. God being the Creator of everything, has no standard to be held to other than His own example, no other creator to be compared to. Nothing could be done better as nothing exist apart from God. He is the standard, the mark of perfection, and anything different from Him would be imperfect. "Fallen short of the glory of God" is the perfect phrase showing the mark of perfection missed by mankind, with God deciding what the mark of perfection is. "Better or worse" statements are simply opinions, unless there exist an absolute for comparison. God is the absolute, and therefor the standards by which all things are to be judged exist only by His definition. Fortunatley for us, He has chosen to reveal the standards by which we will all be judged in His Word.
Grace and Peace, Joe
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Post by Josh Parsley on Dec 4, 2007 14:26:05 GMT -5
What could God have done better? Make sure that what ever you suggest doesn't cause more harm in another area. Some may say "well it would be better if there were no sin." But that would take away from any ability to choose- which would cause more harm than good.
EDIT: That last part should have been "which would not make it better."
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Post by cervyy on Dec 4, 2007 23:10:58 GMT -5
Clearly Josh, I'm getting the impression from your post you didn't fully read mine. Go back, try again. Read it carefully before coming at me with attempts on my argument because I assure you, the one you think it is, is not the same as what I wrote.
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Post by art on Jun 19, 2008 15:24:55 GMT -5
I had to take this old and buried thead out as it is worth commenting on.
Of course their God could do better. After all he does not even exist! Want God to do better? Than just add some stuff to the myth. Be creative. The ones who wrote the Bible were .
No one will punish you. Their God is a myth.
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Post by Jeffrey Olver on Jun 19, 2008 15:55:01 GMT -5
Art...
This is probably going to come across as "unloving..." But I'm going to take that risk...
Do you have anything intelligent to say to back up your attacks? Have you seriously read any of the statements in regards to the character of God, etc.
Or do you just hang around here to attempt to make the "stupid Christians" feel bad?
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Post by dale on Jun 19, 2008 17:24:48 GMT -5
I cannot speak for anyone else but one reason why I personally say I am an agnostic and not an atheist is I cannot prove there IS no God. It is just the argument the Christians make that there IS one that I find equally lame. It is a thought worth considering.
The bottom line is NO ONE can be CERTAIN in regard to what exists out there. The Christians MUST at some time act on FAITH in their belief and this is where I draw the line as impossible.
The street preachers have to accept indirectly inviting some people like this. The very nature of their deliveries invites such critics to this board.That's the price tag that comes with your condemnation, sandwich boards and style. You all just have to live with it.
On the other hand, haven't the street preachers failed this dude then? )Forget failing me, I am way too far gone). You ought to be trying to find out what was said to make him detest you people so much aside from that tired old "he heard the word and is angry abput facing the truth of being a sinner" argument as that gets old quick. Did anyone ever ask the guy what his trip is aside from the superficial comebacks?
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Post by art on Jun 19, 2008 22:41:10 GMT -5
Jeff, it is fine to sound unloving as beneath the surface that is the nature of the street ranters and no big news to me. I do not expect you to love me and be assured I do not love you as I see beyond your happy face masks. The words you use in your rants on campus are totally unloving. You do not hate sin and love the sinner. You love yourselves and that is it. You hate both sinner and sin. No wonder people throw trash at you, atatck you and hate you. To youa ll, love of the oost is a joke. It is a mask you wear to make yoruselves look good among yourselves and only that. We can see through you people like glass. You all claim to be loving, but none of you show it. Pick any rant on campus and you prove it. Now is that enough back up for you! In your own boring book it says many claim to say lord and Lord, nut their eharts are far from me. I do not believe your God exists, but if he did, I do not think he would own up to you all being a part of his doings. Note the contempt the critics and the nonchristians are shown both at your rallies and on this board. Sometimes it is barely beneath the surface and sometimes blatant, but it is always there. If heaven is for you people, hell sounds real good. Pity neither exist.
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Post by debonnaire on Jun 20, 2008 4:08:28 GMT -5
Ecclesiastes 3:10-12 I have seen the burden God has laid on men. He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of men; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end.
Guys what have you done of this that come from God : do you have this thought about eternity in you heart ? Or do you have buried it already ?
Back to the subject of this thread ; the best thing God has ever made is this Rest in Christ, in which we enter by faith in Him. All the other things He has created and done are good and excellent (yeah even free will and even the Law of Moses), but this one is far superior. A guest at Cana said : "Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now." (John 2:10). This guest spoke of the new covenant in Jesus' blood , although he probably wasn't aware his words were prophetic and would be reminded to us by the Holy Spirit.
God has given his very best by giving His only son so that anyone who believe and lay down his life perishes not.
Imagine that yourself give your only son so that others , even your enemies , perish not... but are reconciled to you
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Post by Jeffrey Olver on Jun 20, 2008 10:32:20 GMT -5
Granted, there are some actual bonafide "ranters" out there who make it a point to scream unintelligebly, be outrageous for the shock value, etc. who deserve the term of a "ranter."
But seriously; what IS loving?
With the knowledge that Christians should have: Is it loving to let someone perish in sin without a warning of Hell? Is it loving to hold back a message of reconcilliaton from rebels against God?
Love is not a feeling. It is action.
And because many people feel that love is about the feeling of it - when something comes along that abrasive and confrontational they reject it because it doesn't make them feel good.
If God, and in turn Christians, were more concerned about people's comfort than their character, we'd let them perish in Hell without a second thought.
So what is more important in the eyes of God, comfort or christian character?
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Post by art on Jun 20, 2008 17:48:52 GMT -5
Comfort. I choose comfort. Christian character is a joke. Christian hypocrisy is more like it.
Why dont you just present a compelling case for Jesus and convince me if you are so sure you are right. Make me a believer and win me for God.
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