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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jul 19, 2007 2:26:17 GMT -5
I believe, as the Early Church did, that we inherit original ability from our parents, i.e. freewill.
The EARLY CHURCH ON FREEWILL & VOLUNTARY SALVATION
• Justin Martyr of the Early Church said, “Every created being is so constituted as to be capable of vice and virtue. For he can do nothing praiseworthy, if he had not the power of turning either way.” And “unless we suppose man has the power to choose the good and refuse the evil, no one can be accountable for any action whatever.” (Doctrine of the Will by Asa Mahan, p. 61, published by Truth in Heart)
• Tertullian of the same century said, “No reward can be justly bestowed, no punishment can be justly inflicted, upon him who is good or bad by necessity, and not by his own choice.” (Doctrine of the Will by Asa Mahan, p. 61, published by Truth in Heart)
• Origen said, “The soul does not incline to either part out of necessity, for then neither vice nor virtue could be ascribed to it; nor would its choice of virtue deserve reward; nor its declination to vice punishment.” Again, “How could God require that of man which he [man] had not power to offer Him?” (Doctrine of the Will by Asa Mahan, p. 62, published by Truth in Heart)
• Augustine said, “They that would not come [to Christ], ought not to impute it to another, but only to themselves, because, when they are called, it was in the power of their free will to come.” (Doctrine of the Will by Asa Mahan, p. 63, published by Truth in Heart)
• Clement of Alexandria said, “Neither promises nor apprehensions, rewards, no punishments are just if the soul has not the power of choosing and abstaining; if evil is involuntary.” (Doctrine of the Will by Asa Mahan, p. 63, published by Truth in Heart)
• Jerome said, “God has bestowed us with free will. We are not necessarily drawn either to virtue or vice. For when necessity rules, there is no room left either for d**nation or the crown.” (Doctrine of the Will by Asa Mahan, p. 62, published by Truth in Heart)
• Tertullian said, “In pursuance of that aspect of the association of body and soul that we now have to consider, we maintain that the puberty of the soul coincides with that of the body. Generally speaking, they both attain together this full growth at about the fourteenth year of life. The soul attains it by the suggestion of the senses, and the body attains it by the growth of the bodily members. I do not mention [the age of fourteen] because reflection begins at that age (as Asclepiades supposes). Nor do I choose it because the civil laws date the commencement of the real business of life from this age. Rather, I choose it because this was the appointed order from the very first. For after their obtaining knowledge of good and evil, Adam and Eve felt that they must cover their nakedness. Likewise, we profess to have the same discernment of good and evil from the time that we experience the same sensation of shame. Now, beginning with the aforementioned age, sex is suffused and clothed with a special sensibility. This eye gives way to lust and communicates its pleasure to another. It understands the natural relations between male and female, and it wears the fig-leaf apron to cover the shame that it still excites.” (c.160, A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 7, published by Hendrickson Publishers)
• Justin Martyr said, “In the beginning, He made the human race with the power of thought and of choosing truth and doing right, so that all men are without excuse before God.” (c.160, A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 271, published by Hendrickson Publishers)
• Justin Martyr said, “Let some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever occurs happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Now, if this is not so, but all things happen by fate, then neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it is predetermined that this man will be good, and this other man will be evil, neither is the first one meritorious nor the latter man to be blamed. And again, unless the human race has the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions.” (c.160, A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 271, published by Hendrickson Publishers)
• Justin Martyr said, “I have proved in what has been said that those who were foreknown to be unrighteous, whether men or angels, are not made wicked by God’s fault. Rather, each man is what he will appear to be through his own fault.” (c.160, A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 286, published by Hendrickson Publishers)
• Tatian said, “We were not created to die. Rather, we die by our own fault. Our free will has destroyed us. We who were free have become slaves. We have been sold through sin. Nothing evil has been created by God. We ourselves have manifested wickedness. But we, who have manifested it, are able again to reject it.” (c.160, A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 286, published by Hendrickson Publishers)
• Melito said, “There is, therefore, nothing to hinder you from changing your evil manner to life, because you are a free man.” (c.170, A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 286, published by Hendrickson Publishers)
• Theophilus said, “If, on the other hand, he would turn to the things of death, disobeying God, he would himself be the cause of death to himself. For God made man free, and with power of himself.” (c.180, A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 286, published by Hendrickson Publishers)
• Irenaeus said, “But man, being endowed with reason, and in this respect similar to God, having been made free in his will, and with power over himself, is himself his own cause that sometimes he becomes wheat, and sometimes chaff.” (c.180, A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 286, published by Hendrickson Publishers)
• Irenaeus said, “’Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good deeds’…And ‘Why call me, Lord, Lord, and do not do the things that I say?’…All such passages demonstrate the independent will of man…For it is in man’s power to disobey God and to forfeit what is good.” (c.180, A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 287, published by Hendrickson Publishers)
• Clement of Alexandria said, “We…have believed and are saved by voluntary choice.” (c.195, A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 287, published by Hendrickson Publishers)
• Clement of Alexandria said, “Each one of us who sins with his own free will, chooses punishment. So the blame lies with him who chooses. God is without blame.” (c.195, A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 287, published by Hendrickson Publishers)
• Clement of Alexandria said, “To obey or not is in our own power, provided we do not have the excuse of ignorance.” (c.195, A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 287, published by Hendrickson Publishers)
• Tertullian said, “I find, then, that man was constituted free by God. He was master of his own will and power…For a law would not be imposed upon one who did not have it in his power to render that obedience which is due to law. Nor again, would the penalty of death be threatened against sin, if a contempt of the law were impossible to man in the liberty of his will…Man is free, with a will either for obedience or resistance. (c.207, A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 288, published by Hendrickson Publishers)
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Post by abraham on Jul 21, 2007 5:14:59 GMT -5
Hey Jesse, can you write an article (with a list of scriptures and some exposition) on verses throughout the bible that clearly teach that man can of his own freewill do truth, come to the light, do good, do works of faith, bring forth the fruit of godly sorrow (prior to regeneration). I can think of alot of verses that command man to bring forth good fruit. If you list any verses, these are not the ones I'm looking for. I'm looking for ones that teach that a natural man can do these things. I suppose we could assume man is able, because God commanded him to do it. (I mean, that would make sense if God taught it.) But, I have only heard men teach this. (the teaching that says... because God commands it, natural men must have the ability to perform it.) Finney teaches it well and so do these from the early church. But, my Father has not taught me that. I find it no where in scripture taught that because God commands it, we must be able to be willing (prior to regeneration). Assumption or opinions from well respected men isn't what I'm looking for. This is vain if it contradicts scripture. Also, we both can find 100's of verses where God commands obedience and examples of men obeying the truth. But, you have to answer for the many passages that clearly teach man is unwilling by nature (see John 3:19-21; John 3:32-33) and Man is Unable by nature (See John 5:43-44 with Romans 3:11, Romans 8:7-8). Yes, even better! Scratch that Jesse. Write an article that Clarifies what Jesus and His prophets meant when they said things like "cannot", "neither can", "receiveth not", ...etc. I put an article on this forum in the scripture and doctrine section with a list of some of these verse. Maybe, you could get them all from there, and explain what God was trying to get across when he spoke of natural man's inability and unwillingness. Jesse, If God made it clear to you that "the doctrines of Grace" are Paul's theology and from God. (Yes, the thought may be horrifying) ...would you be willing to turn from the system of theology that you are now in and conform to the bible, if it was true. (which would mean Hodge instead of Finney) I believe that God is able to make it clear to you. I'm only asking that, because you are in my prayers. God bless you brother. You have always been an encouragement to me. -Abraham
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jul 21, 2007 5:23:41 GMT -5
Ro 2:14 - For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Being made in the image of God, all men have the natural ability for good or evil, all men have freewill and can choose good or evil. Going to hell for sin you cannot avoid would be like going to jail for your skin color, which cannot be avoided. Criminality can only be prescribed to the voluntary, it can only extend to the optional. Unavoidable, hereditary sin (which in reality does not exist; all sin is optional and consists in voluntary choices) can no more send you to hell then unavoidable, hereditary skin color can. Does God require apples from a bannana tree? Or does God require strawberries from a blueberry tree? Does God condemn the lame for not walking? Or, condemn the lame for being born lame?? God is not a tyrant, His laws are not tyrannical. Pharaoh commanded brick but gave no straw, and then beat those who failed to perform the impossible. Pharaoh was a tyrant for doing such and scripture assigns the fault to Pharaoh and not with those subservient to him (Exodus 5:16). The moral fault was with the commander, not with the command breakers. The infallible testimony of Divine Inspiration declares that when an impossible law is broken, the problem is with the law itself and with the one who issued the law. What is vice in Pharaoh would not and could not be virtue in God. What scripture condemns in one is condemnable in all; what is vice in one is vice in all. The equality and impartiality of justice demands that what mars the character of one must mar the character of all, a blemish to one must be a blemish to all. God does not command obedience but then gives no ability to perform that which is commanded, only to punish with eternal torment those who do not obey when they had no ability to obey. The fault would, according to the divine scriptures, be with the commander and not with the command breaker, when the commands are broken. Sin would ultimately be the fault of the one who gave the unreasonable law, since sin is transgression of the law (1John 3:4), and there can be no transgression where there is no law (Romans 4:15, Romans 5:13,1John 3:4). Sin then would not and could not be the fault of the one who broken the law which naturally could not be kept. The one who decrees an impossible law must be the ultimate author and actual cause of sin. But the truth is that God is not the author of sin, He is not the ultimate cause of sin, because God’s moral laws are not unreasonable, because God’s moral laws can in fact be kept. God’s Moral Government, or Moral Kingdom, is not a tyrannical one, but a reasonable and just one. God does not condemn the incapable for failure to perform the impossible, but condemns the able for failure to perform the possible Have you read my article on " Necessary Conditions of Moral Accountability?" I explain in it how the bible clearly teaches that moral accountability extends only as far as moral ability and moral knowledge. openairoutreach.proboards52.com/index.cgi?board=articles&action=display&thread=1179957529Also see my article called " The Relation of the Nature and the Will" which answers many of the so called scriptural arguements against freewill: openairoutreach.proboards52.com/index.cgi?board=articles&action=display&thread=1167252225Also see the article: " Sinners by Choice or Constitution?" openairoutreach.proboards52.com/index.cgi?board=articles&action=display&thread=1174940556
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Oct 29, 2007 8:34:57 GMT -5
"Obedience results from a decision of the mind, not the substance of the body." Pelagius "those who are unwilling to correct their own way of life appear to want to correct nature itself instead." Pelagius "And lest, on the other hand, it should be thought to be nature's fault that some have been unrighteous, I shall use the evidence of the scripture, which everywhere lay upon sinners the heavy weight of the charge of having used their own will and do not excuse them for having acted only under constraint of nature." Pelagius "Yet we do not defend the good of nature to such an extent that we claim that it cannot do evil, since we undoubtedly declare also that it is capable of good and evil; we merely try to protect it from an unjust charge, so that we may not seem to be forced to do evil through a fault of our nature, when, in fact, we do neither good nor evil without the exercise of our will and always have the freedom to do one of the two, being always able to do either." Pelagius "Nothing impossible has been commanded by the God of justice and majesty...Why do we indulge in pointless evasions, advancing the grailty of our own nature as an objectionto the one who commands us? No one knows better the true measure of our strength than he who has given it to us nor does anyone understand better how much we are able to do than he who has given us this very capacity of ours to be able; nor has he who is just wished to command anything impossible or he who is good intended to condemn a man for doing what he could not avoid doing." Pelagius "Grace indeed freely discharges sins, but with the consent and choice of the believer." Pelagius "Our most excellent creato wished us to be able to do either but actually to do only one, that is, good, which he also commanded, giving us the capacity to do evil only so that we might do hi will by exercising our own. That being so, this very capacity to do evil is also good - good, I say, because it makes the good part better by making it voluntary and independent, not bound by necessity but free to decide for itself." Pelagius "Is it possible then possible for a man not to sin? Such a claim is indeed a hard one and a bitter pill for sinners to swallow; it pains the ears of all who desire to live unrighteously. Who will find it easy now to fulfil the demands of righteousness, when there are some who find it hard even to listen to them?" An unknown Pelagian "When will a man guilty of any crime or sin accept with a tranquil mind that his wickedness is a product of his own will, not of necessity, and allow what he now strives to attribute to nature to be ascribed to his own free choice? It affords endless comfort to transgressors of the divine law if they are able to believe that their failure to do something is due to inability rather then disinclination, since they understand from their natural wisdom that no one can be judged for failing to do the impossible and that what is justifiable on grounds of impossibility is either a small sin or none at all." An unknown Pelagian "Under the plea that it is impossible not to sin, they are given a false sense of security in sinning...Anyone who hears that it is not possible for him to be without sin will not even try to be what he judges to be impossible, and the man who does not try to be without sin must perforce sin all the time, and all the more boldly because he enjoys the false security of believing that it is impossible for him not to sin...But if he were to hear that he is able not to sin, then he would have exerted himself to fulfil what he now knows to be possible when he is striving to fulfil it, to achieve his purpose for the most part, even if not entirely." An unknown Pelagian "Consider first whether that which is such that a man cannot be without it ought to be described as sin at all; for everything which cannot be avoided is now put down to nature but it is impious to say that sin is inherent in nature, because in this way the author of nature is being judged at fault." An unknown Pelagian "How can it be proper to call sin by that name if, like other natural things, it cannot be avoided, since all sin is to be attributed to the free choice of the will, not the defects of nature." An unknown Pelagian ---------------------------------- I highly recommend reading, "The Letters of Pelagius and His Followers" by B. R. Rees It was also published as the second half of "Pelagius: Life and Letters" by B. R. Rees Search at www.abe.com
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Dec 6, 2007 0:47:54 GMT -5
PELAGIUS DEFENSE OF THE FREEDOM OF THE WILL Reconstructed by Rev. Daniel R. Jennings
Synopsis: This book was written by Pelagius and explains his beliefs regarding the free will that God has given to mankind. It was a short treatise composed of four books. These fragments are taken from Augustine's two book work entitled "On the Grace of Christ, and on Original Sin". Unfortunately for those wishing to fully understand Pelagius' views Augustine is not a faithful quoter when it comes to his archenemy's writings. Augustine will quote him in one place, then repeat the quote later in a different way, each time wording it in such a way that best suits his argument. We are left to wonder if he has done this with all of the quotations that he has made from Pelagius' writings, perhaps exaggerating his statements to present them in an extreme light that the original author never meant. This would explain why two ecclesiastical synods, two popes, at least thirty-two bishops and several influential Christians could not find anything wrong with Pelagius' doctrinal stances.
"Now we have implanted in us by God a capacity for either part. It resembles, as I may say, a fruitful and fecund root which yields and produces diversely according to the will of man, and which is capable, at the planter's own choice, of either shedding a beautiful bloom of virtues, or of bristling with the thorny thickets of vices." (from Book 1)
"We distinguish three things, arranging them in a certain graduated order. We put in the first place 'ability;' in the second, 'volition;' and in the third, 'actuality.' The 'ability' we place in our nature, the 'volition' in our will, and the 'actuality' in the effect. The first, that is, the 'ability,' properly belongs to God, who has bestowed it on His creature; the other two, that is, the 'volition' and the 'actuality,' must be referred to man, because they flow forth from the fountain of the will. For his willing, therefore, and doing a good work, the praise belongs to man; or rather both to man, and to God who has bestowed on him the 'capacity' for his will and work, and who evermore by the help of His grace assists even this capacity. That a man is able to will and effect any good work, comes from God alone. So that this one faculty can exist, even when the other two have no being; but these latter cannot exist without that former one. I am therefore free not to have either a good volition or action; but I am by no means able not to have the capacity of good. This capacity is inherent in me, whether I will or no; nor does nature at any time receive in this point freedom for itself. Now the meaning of all this will be rendered clearer by an example or two. That we are able to see with our eyes is not of us; but it is our own that we make a good or a bad use of our eyes. So again (that I may, by applying a general case in illustration, embrace all), that we are able to do, say, think, any good thing, comes from Him who has endowed us with this 'ability,' and who also assists this 'ability;' but that we really do a good thing, or speak a good word, or think a good thought, proceeds from our own selves, because we are also able to turn all these into evil. Accordingly,--and this is a point which needs frequent repetition, because of your calumniation of us,--whenever we say that a man can live without sin, we also give praise to God by our acknowledgment of the capacity which we have received from Him, who has bestowed such 'ability' upon us; and there is here no occasion for praising the human agent, since it is God's matter alone that is for the moment treated of; for the question is not about 'willing,' or 'effecting,' but simply and solely about that which may possibly be." (from Book 3)
"We are supposed by very ignorant persons to do wrong in this matter to divine grace, because we say that it by no means perfects sanctity in us without our will,--as if God could have imposed any command on His grace, without also supplying the help of His grace to those on whom he imposed His commands, so that men might more easily accomplish through grace what they are required to do by their free will. And this grace we for our part do not, as you suppose, allow to consist merely in the law, but also in the help of God. God helps us by His teaching and revelation, whilst He opens the eyes of our heart; whilst He points out to us the future, that we may not be absorbed in the present; whilst He discovers to us the snares of the devil; whilst He enlightens us with the manifold and ineffable gift of heavenly grace. Does the man who says all this appear to you to be a denier of grace? Does he not acknowledge both man's free will and God's grace?"
"How will this stand consistently with the apostle's words, 'It is God that worketh in you both to will and to perfect'? He works in us to will what is good, to will what is holy, when He rouses us from our devotion to earthly desires, and from our love of the present only, after the manner of brute animals, by the magnitude of the future glory and the promise of its rewards; when by revealing wisdom to us He stirs up our sluggish will to a longing after God; when (what you are not afraid to deny in another passage) he persuades us to everything which is good."
“[James tells us ‘Submit yourselves unto God; but resist the devil, and be will flee from you.’] He shows us [here] how we ought to resist the devil, if we submit ourselves indeed to God and by doing His will merit His divine grace, and by the help of the Holy Ghost more easily withstand the evil spirit."
"The man who hastens to the Lord, and desires to be directed by Him, that is, who makes his own will depend upon God's, who moreover cleaves so closely to the Lord as to become (as the apostle says) 'one spirit' with Him, does all this by nothing else than by his freedom of will."
"Whosoever makes a right use of this [freedom of the will] does so entirely surrender himself to God, and does so completely mortify his own will, that he is able to say with the apostle, 'Nevertheless it is already of I that live, but Christ liveth in me;' and 'He placeth his heart in the hand of God, so that He turneth it whithersoever He willeth.'"
"That we are able to do good is of God, but that we actually do it is of ourselves."
"That we are able to make a good use of speech comes from God; but that we do actually make this good use of speech proceeds from ourselves."
"That we are able to think a good thought comes from God, but that we actually think a good thought proceeds from ourselves."
"[When we talk about grace in the New Testament we are talking about a] grace [that] is bestowed in order that what God commands may be the more easily fulfilled. [This “grace” should be understood to be the gift of the Holy Spirit who was not given as an indwelling presence under the Old Testament dispensation.]"
"But while we have within us a free will so strong and so steadfast against sinning, which our Maker has implanted in human nature generally, still, by His unspeakable goodness, we are further defended by His own daily help." (from Book 1)
"[Grace is sent by God] in order that men may more easily accomplish by grace that which they are commanded to do by free will."
"We hold likewise one baptism, which we aver ought to be administered to infants in the same sacramental formula as it is to adults."
[There is a fictional discussion in Book 3 between Pelagius and an opponent.]
[Opponent: I insist that these words of the apostle, ‘For what I would, that do I not’ and ‘I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind’ intimate that man cannot live without sin.]
"[Pelagius:] Now that which you wish us to understand of the apostle himself, all Church writers assert that he spoke in the person of the sinner, and of one who was still under the law,--such a man as was, by reason of a very long custom of vice, held bound, as it were, by a certain necessity of sinning, and who, although he desired good with his will, in practice indeed was hurried headlong into evil. In the person, however, of one man the apostle designates the people who still sinned under the ancient law. This nation he declares was to be delivered from this evil of custom through Christ, who first of all remits all sins in baptism to those who believe in Him, and then urges them by an imitation of Himself to perfect holiness, and by the example of His own virtues overcomes the evil custom of their sins."
"The blessed Bishop Ambrose in whose writings the Roman faith shines forth with especial brightness, and whom the Latin’s have always regarded as the very flower and glory of their authors, and who has never found a foe bold enough to censure his faith or the purity of his understanding of the Scriptures." (from Book3)
"Everything good, and everything evil, on account of which we are either laudable or blameworthy, is not born with us but done by us: for we are born not fully developed, but with a capacity for either conduct; and we are procreated as without virtue, so also without vice; and previous to the action of our own proper will, that alone is in man which God has formed." (from Book 1)
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Post by sean on Dec 7, 2007 21:08:50 GMT -5
Jesse,
If God has blinded the Jews - at least the majority of them - then how can they of their own free will come to Christ?
And how does "God blinding people" fit in with your doctrine of the nature of God?
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Post by evanandliz on Dec 7, 2007 21:43:58 GMT -5
Jesse,
Are you seriously appealing to Asa Mahan as an EARLY CHURCH citation? I sure hope you mis titled that. If you think he is the early church you are turning into a MG reformer, they think Augustine was the early church.
- Evan
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Dec 8, 2007 16:27:17 GMT -5
Evan,
I never quoted Asa Mahan at all, neither did I say that Asa Mahan was the Early Church. In fact, I've never quoted anything Asa Mahan has said in my entire life.
If you actually read my post you would see that I quoted Early Church fathers that Asa Mahan quoted in his book. The source of the quotes are found in a book by Mahan. I took quotes of the Early Church fathers from a Mahan book.
These are all quotes from the Early Church Fathers which quotes can be found in a book by Asa Mahan:
Sean,
On campus I am accused of turning off sinners. But that only means that the sinners, by their own freewill, are rejecting what I am saying, because they don't like what I am saying.
What I do results in sinners hardening their hearts even more, even refusing to hear the gospel.
Likewise, God hardened Pharaohs heart in that, God brought judgment upon Egypt and Pharaoh voluntarily hardened his heart by his freewill because of what God was doing.
And God closed the eyes of the Jews in that, Jesus and the Apostles preached the truth, the Jews did not want to hear the truth, so they voluntarily closed their eyes, blocked their ears, and hardened their hearts, lest they be converted.
Pharaoh hardened his own heart:
Exo 8:15 "But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them, as the Lord had said."
Exo 8:32 "And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go."
Exo 9:34 "And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants."
The Jews closed their own eyes:
Mat 13:15 "For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears ar dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them."
Act 28:27 "For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them."
The Jews have closed their own eyes. You could say that God closed their eyes only in the sense that God presented truth to them which they voluntarily rejected and in effect closed their own eyes.
Just as the preaching of Stephen resulted in men closing their own ears:
"Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord." Acts 7:57
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Dec 9, 2007 22:21:50 GMT -5
“Neither praise nor condemnation, neither reward no punishments, are right if the soul does not have the power of choice and avoidance, if evil is involuntary.” Clement, Will the Real Heretics Please Stand Up, by David Bercot, pg 71, printed by Scroll Publishings
“All the creatures that God made, He made very good. And He gave to every individual the sense of free will, by which standard He also instituted the law of judgment… And certainly whoever will, may keep the commandments. Whoever despises them and turns aside to what is contrary to them, shall yet without doubt have to face this law of judgment… There can be no doubt that every individual, in using his own proper power of will, may shape his course in whatever direction he pleases.” Archelaus, Will the Real Heretics Please Stand Up, by David Bercot, pg 71, printed by Scroll Publishings
"It is our responsibility to live righteously. God asks this of us, not as though it were dependent on Him, nor on any other, or upon fate (as some think), but as being dependent on us... We have freedom of the will and that we ourselves are the cause of our own ruin or our salvation." Origen, Will the Real Heretics Please Stand Up, by David Bercot, pg 74, printed by Scroll Publishings
“Whenever I have to speak on the subject of moral instruction and conduct of a holy life, it is my practice first to demonstrate the power and quality of human nature and to show what it is capable of achieving, and then to go on to encourage the mind of my listener to consider the idea of different kinds of virtues, in case it may be of little or no profit to him to be summoned to pursue ends which he has perhaps assumed hitherto to be beyond his reach; for we can never end upon the path of virtue unless we have hope as our guide and compassion…any good of which human nature is capable has to be revealed, since what is shown to be practicable must be put into practice.” Pelagius (The Letters of Pelagius and his Followers by B. R. Rees, pg 36-37, published by The Boydell Press)
"It was because God wished to bestow on the rational creature the gift of doing good of his own free will and the capacity to exercise free choice, by implanting in man the possibility of choosing either alternative...he could do either quite naturally and then bend his will in the other direction too. He could not claim to possess the good of his own volition, unless he were the kind of creature that could also have possessed evil. Our most excellent creature wished us to be able to do either but actually to do only one, that is, good, which he also commanded, giving us the capacity to do evil only so that we might do His will by exercising our own. That being so, this very capacity to do evil is also good - good, I say, because it makes the good part better by making it voluntary and independent, not boud by necessity but free to decide for itself." Pelagius (The Letters of Pelagius and his Followers by B. R. Rees, pg 38, published by The Boydell Press)
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Dec 20, 2007 16:45:42 GMT -5
Here are some quotes Pelagius used in one of his books. These are quotes from other Early Church leaders:
"[Let us now turn our attention to other Christian writers who agree with what I am proposing. Lactantius has said] ‘It behooved for the Master and Teacher of virtue to become most like to man, that by conquering sin He might show that man is able to conquer sin.’"
"[Again Lactantius says] ‘And again, that by subduing the desires of the flesh He might teach us that it is not of necessity that one sins, but of set purpose and will.’"
"[Hilary has said that] It is only when we shall be perfect in spirit and changed in our immortal state, which blessedness has been appointed only for the pure in heart, that we shall see that which is immortal in God."
"[Again Hilary has said] ‘This Job had so effectually read these Scriptures, that was because he worshipped God purely with a mind unmixed with offences: now such worship of God is the proper work of righteousness."
"[Hilary, likewise, while expounding that passage of the psalm in which it is written, ‘Thou hast despised all those who turn aside from Thy commandments,’ says:] ‘If God were to despise sinners, He would despise indeed all men, because no man is without sin; but it is those who turn away from Him, whom they call apostates, that He despises."
"[Ambrose of Milan has said] ‘Inasmuch as the Church has been gathered out of the world, that is, out of sinful men, how can it be unpolluted when composed of such polluted material, except that, in the first place, it be washed of sins by the grace of Christ, and then, in the next place, abstain from sins through its nature of avoiding sin?’"
"[Remember that John Chrysostom has said] ‘that sin is not a substance, but a wicked act. And because it is not natural, therefore the law was given against it, and because it proceeds from the liberty of our will."
"[Remember what Xystus, bishop of Rome and martyr, has once said] ‘God has conferred upon men liberty of their own will, in order that by purity and sinlessness of life they may become like unto God?’ [and] ‘A pure mind is a holy temple for God, and a heart clean and without sin is His best altar.’ [Xystus has also said] ‘A man of chastity and without sin has receded power from God to be a son of God.’"
"[Jerome has written] `Blessed are the pure in heart; for they shall see God.' These are they whom no consciousness of sin reproves. The pure man is seen by his purity of heart; the temple of God cannot be defiled.’ [He has also said] ‘God created us with free will; we are drawn by necessity neither to virtue nor to vice; otherwise, where there is necessity there is no crown."
"Bishop Augustine also in his books on Free Will has these words: `Whatever the cause itself of volition is, if it is impossible to resist it, submission to it is not sinful; if, however, it may be resisted, let it not be submitted to, and there will be no sin. Does it, perchance, deceive the unwary man? Let him then beware that he be not deceived. Is the deception, however, so potent that it is not possible to guard against it? If such is the case, then there are no sins. For who sins in a case where precaution is quite impossible? Sin, however, is committed; precaution therefore is possible.'"
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jan 8, 2008 16:39:37 GMT -5
FREE WILL IS ONE OF THE EARLIEST ORTHODOX CHRISTIAN DOCTRINES
“All the Fathers…agreed with the Pelagians in attributing free will to man.” Dr Wiggers (The Doctrine of the Will by Asa Mahan, pg 60)
John Calvin admitted that “The Greek fathers above others” have taught “the power of the human will.” (An Equal Check to Pharsaism and Antinomianism by John Fletcher, Volume Two, pg 202, Published by Carlton & Porter
And Calvin also said, “The Latin fathers have always retained the word free will…” (Doctrine of the Will by Asa Mahan, pg 60, published by Truth in Heart)
“What is plainer than that the ancient divines, for three hundred years after Christ, those at least who flourished before St. Augustine, maintained the liberty of our will, or an indifference to two contrary things, free from all internal and external necessity!” Episcopius (An Equal Check to Pharisaism and Antinomianism by John Fletcher, Volume Two, pg 209, Published by Carlton & Porter)
Asa Mahan said that free will “was the doctrine of the primitive church for the first four or five centuries after the Bible was written, the church which received the ‘lively oracles’ directly from the hands of some of those by whom they were written, to wit: the writers of the New Testament. It should be borne in mind here, that at the time the sacred canon was completed, the doctrine of Necessity was held by the leading sects in the Jewish Church. It was also the fundamental article of the creed of all the sects in philosophy throughout the world, as well as of all the forms of heathenism then extant. If the doctrine of Necessity, as its advocates maintain, is the doctrine taught the church by inspired apostles and the writers of the New Testament, we should not fail to find, under such circumstances, the churches planted by them, rooted and grounded in this doctrine.” (Doctrine of the Will by Asa Mahan, pg 59, published by Truth in Heart) Rather, we find that the Early Church affirmed free will while the Gnostic heretics denied it and affirmed a slaved will through a totally corrupted nature.
David Bercot, an expert on early Christian beliefs said, “The Early Christians didn’t believe that man is totally depraved [totally unable] and incapable of doing any good. They taught that humans are capable of obeying and loving God.” (Will the Real Heretics Please Stand Up, pg 64, published by Scroll Publishings)
David Bercot also said, “There was a religious group, labeled as heretics by the early Christians… they taught that man is totally depraved [totally unable]… the group I’m referring to are the Gnostics.” (Will the Real Heretics Please Stand Up, pg 66, published by Scroll Publishings)
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jan 9, 2008 15:20:16 GMT -5
These are some quotes by Augustine himself:
“The religious mind…confesses…and maintains…that we do by our free will whatsoever we know and feel to be done by us only because we will it.” (Augustine, City of God, Washington, C.D. Catholic University Press, 1950, Book V, ch. 9)
“We…assert the liberty of the will, whereby our actions are rendered either moral or immoral, and keep it free from every bond of necessity, on account of the righteous judgment of God.” (An Equal Check to Pharisaism and Antinomianism by John Fletcher, Volume Two, pg 205, Published by Carlton & Porter)
“…we sin voluntarily and not by necessity.” (Freedom of the Will, Book III, ch. 3, sec 6
"They that would not come [to Christ], ought not to impute it to another, but only to themselves, because, when they are called, it was in the power of their free will to come” (Augustine; Doctrine of the Will by Asa Mahan, pg 63, published by Truth in Heart)
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Apr 27, 2008 13:13:56 GMT -5
“For no other reason does God punish the sinner either in the present or in the future world, except because He knows that the sinner was able to conquer but neglected to gain the victory.” Clement of Rome, mentioned in Php. 4:3, (History of Original Sin by Cowles, pg 3)
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Post by Jesse Morrell on May 1, 2008 15:37:46 GMT -5
"Where there is no freedom of choice there can be neither sin nor righteousness, because it is of the nature of both that they be voluntary." A. W. Tozer (Signposts, A Collection of Saying From A. W. Tozer, Published by Victor Books, p. 22)
"Where there is no moral knowledge or where there is no voluntary choice, the act is not sinful; it cannot be, for sin is the transgression of the law and transgression must be voluntary." A. W. Tozer (Signposts, A Collection of Saying From A. W. Tozer, Published by Victor Books, p. 22)
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jul 23, 2008 22:09:08 GMT -5
"If anyone is truly religious, he is a man of God; but if he is irreligious, he is a man of the devil, made such, not by nature, but by his own choice." - Ignatius
Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume One, page 61
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Post by possess on Oct 16, 2008 11:56:01 GMT -5
OOps--I must have posted in the wrong place, somewhere there is a place where you sited Martin Luther with a free will quote, I didn't mean to argue by throwing quotes at you - sorry - but Luther was not a big free will advocate, and neither is your quote in this string!
Thanks for the Pelagius quotes, I have never actually read anything by him! I do think the "Pelagians" in question at a certain hearing were going way beyond what Pelagius had to say, and then the opposition over-corrected a bit. Maybe they were condemned as "Pelagians" by a group of men that had never even read any of what Pelagius had to say...
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Oct 16, 2008 19:45:11 GMT -5
Yes, some who were called "Pelagians" were teaching a far more extreme view than what Pelagius himself actually taught. That is why Pelagius was always cleared of heresy whenever he was able to defend himself and his teachings.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jun 5, 2009 17:47:33 GMT -5
110-165AD Justin Martyr "We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, chastisements, and rewards are rendered according to the merit of each man's actions. Otherwise, if all things happen by fate, then nothing is in our own power. For if it be predestined that one man be good and another man evil, then the first is not deserving of praise or the other to be blamed. Unless humans have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions-whatever they may be.... For neither would a man be worthy of reward or praise if he did not of himself choose the good, but was merely created for that end. Likewise, if a man were evil, he would not deserve punishment, since he was not evil of himself, being unable to do anything else than what he was made for." (Justin First Apology chap. 43) 185-255 AD Origen "He makes Himself known to those who, after doing all that their powers will allow, confess that they need help from Him." (Origen Against Celsus bk. 7, chap. 42) 190 AD Clement of Alexandria "A man by himself working and toiling at freedom from sinful desires achieves nothing. But if he plainly shows himself to be very eager and earnest about this, he attains it by the addition of the power of God. God works together with willing souls. But if the person abandons his eagerness, the spirit from God is also restrained. To save the unwilling is the act of one using compulsion; but to save the willing, that of one showing grace." (Clement Salvation of the Rich Man chap. 21) 190 AD Clement of Alexandria "Neither praise nor condemnation, neither rewards nor punishments, are right if the soul does not have the power of choice and avoidance, if evil is involuntary." (Clement Miscellanies bk. 1, chap. 17) 250-300 AD Archelaus "All the creatures that God made, He made very good. And He gave to every individual the sense of free will, by which standard He also instituted the law of judgment.... And certainly whoever will, may keep the commandments. Whoever despises them and turns aside to what is contrary to them, shall yet without doubt have to face this law of judgment.... There can be no doubt that every individual, in using his own proper power of will, may shape his course in whatever direction he pleases." (Archelaus Disputation With Manes sees. 32, 33) 260-315 AD Methodius "Those [pagans] who decide that man does not have free will, but say that he is governed by the unavoidable necessities of fate, are guilty of impiety toward God Himself, making Him out to be the cause and author of human evils. " (Methodius The Banquet of the Ten Virgins discourse 8, chap. 16)
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