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Post by Josh Parsley on Feb 7, 2008 12:55:34 GMT -5
What are everyone's response to this? Here is something I once replied on the topic. It's short- by no means exhaustive. If your not familiar with what the problem of evil is, here it is. 1) God is benevolent. 2)God is all knowing. 3) God is all powerful. 3) Evil exists. If God is so good and loving, he has all knowledge that he knows how to stop evil, and the power to do it why does evil exist? The answers are: 1)God isn't all loving so that he doesn't want people to suffer. 2) God isn't all knowing that he knows how to prevent evil. 3) God isn't all powerful that he is able to do it. 4) God doesn't exist. To answer the problem, you have to add a premise: God has good and loving reason to allow evil. If the added premise is logically sound, then there is no logical problem. ----------------------- I believe the reason there is evil/suffering is because God desires that man have an option to decide (free-will). God wants man to be in a relationship with him, by choice, not force. Because of God's nature, for a man to be in relationship with Him, man must be in accordance to holiness (God's nature). Basically God wants men to be morally upright and in relationship with him by choice. When something is contrary to God's desire, it's sin or in other words, evil. If there is no ability to chose contrary, then there really isn't a choice. As far as natural evil, for man to have this freedom of choice there must be "laws of nature." The reason being is that if God automated every single atom in the universe, it seems (to me anyways) that man would be in such a locked down environment he wouldn't have much freedom. If the laws of nature do not respond then free will choices really don't mean much. How can you kill someone with a gun if those certain natural laws, which must be in effect for a gun to work, aren't there? These things that God has set in order can cause good or bad, but the removal of them (nature and it's laws) removes the ability to do good. Here is a quote from Michael Peterson: The same water which sustains and refreshes can also drown; the same drug which relieves suffering can cause crippling psychological addiction; the same sun which gives light and life can parch fields and bring famine; the same neural arrangements which transmit intense pleasure and ecstasy can also bring extreme pain and agony. If my above response is logically possible, then is it a logical necessity that the "problem of evil" demands God can't exist?
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Post by rebecca on Feb 7, 2008 13:14:12 GMT -5
I believe that evil has always existed. The world - God= evil light - light = darkness darkness-darkness=light good- good= evil evil- evil= good I know it's short and sweet but I thought this over a long time ago and that's what I came up with. Isaiah 45:7 7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. I believe what the above verse is saying is that when God comes on the scene evil manifests to show that it is evil. When you preach the gosple you are showing that man is sinful. Without the law we would not know that sin exists.
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Post by rebecca on Feb 7, 2008 14:18:33 GMT -5
Take for example peace, why would you need such a thing as peace unless there was such a thing as conflict or discontent?
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Post by Jeffrey Olver on Feb 7, 2008 15:35:43 GMT -5
CS Lewis covers the "problem of evil" very well in his books, "Mere Christianity" and "The Problem of Pain."
I personally do not believe that in order for there to be peace, conflict must be (or have been) present at some point. Or for good to exist evil must be (or have been) present.
God does not need something to contrast him in order to be thought of as good. I've thought about this and have considered - well, does that change the perspective of what good is?
We all know and believe that God is, indeed, good. Has been good, is good now and always will be good. But was He good before he created anything else to comprehend Him as good? God comprehends himself, of course, so does that count? ;-)
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Post by rebecca on Feb 7, 2008 15:57:22 GMT -5
God does not need something to contrast him in order to be thought of as good. I agree, but the opposite is true. The existence of one thing causes the existence of something else even if that thing is nothing. Nothing is a negative.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Feb 7, 2008 18:03:03 GMT -5
1. God has a good and sufficient reason for allowing sin to presently occur. No doubt, the reason God granted us a free will in the first place was so that we could choose to genuinely love Him and each other. But we have mis used that free will so why doesn't God take it away? Because there is still a chance and an opportunity that we might repent. That is the reason that Peter gave as to why Judgment Day hasn't already occurred.
So to break down my answer:
- God allowed the possibility of evil so that we could be capable of good (gave free will)
- God temporarily allows the continuance of evil (instead of destroying us or having judgment day today) so that we could have the opportunity to repent.
The only reason that God allows men to have the possibility of sinning, and does not destroy them as soon as they sin, is because God still has hope that they might repent and enter into a relationship with Him. It would seem that the value of the possibility of love and relationship far outweighs the risk that we will misuse our free will and go to hell at last.
2. Regarding the yin and yang issue "in order to have good there needs to be evil" I would disagree. You do not need the actual existence of evil for there to be the existence of good. All you need is the concept of evil in order to have the existence of good. But while I'd say that the concept of good and evil is required for there to be good, the actual existence of evil is not required for there to be the existence of good.
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Post by rebecca on Feb 7, 2008 18:17:29 GMT -5
Amen Jesse, that's what I was trying to say but you said it better! lol!
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Post by rebecca on Feb 7, 2008 18:44:06 GMT -5
The answer to that would be the problem of evil demands that there is an absence of God only where there is the presence of evil.
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Post by rebecca on Feb 7, 2008 19:10:21 GMT -5
The answer to that would be the problem of evil demands that there is an absence of God only where there is the presence of evil. ... for instance cancer cells. Everything that is good is of God!
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Post by rebecca on Feb 7, 2008 19:27:17 GMT -5
The answer to that would be the problem of evil demands that there is an absence of God only where there is the presence of evil. ... for instance cancer cells. Everything that is good is of God! Which answers the question "is it God's will to heal?" Absolutely! God is not a part of sickness or disease.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Feb 8, 2008 9:59:22 GMT -5
What about natural evil? Like tornadoes and such? I think moral evil isn't too hard to answer, but natural evil seems to be more of a challenge.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Feb 8, 2008 10:55:14 GMT -5
God creates natural evil. God is directly the cause of natural evil. Every flood, every tornado, every fire storm, every earth quake, all of it is the hand of God. God's omnipotence is directly in charge of, and directly in control of, all natural evils.
And He has a good and sufficient reason to do so. God is always guided by His benevolence and wisdom. God always does what is good and wise.
Isa 45:7 "I form light and create darkness, I make peace and create evil, I the Lord do all these things."
Amo 3:6 "Shall there be evil in a city and the Lord hath not done it?"
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Post by rebecca on Feb 8, 2008 12:47:26 GMT -5
God creates natural evil. God is directly the cause of natural evil. Every flood, every tornado, every fire storm, every earth quake, all of it is the hand of God. God's omnipotence is directly in charge of, and directly in control of, all natural evils. And He has a good and sufficient reason to do so. God is always guided by His benevolence and wisdom. God always does what is good and wise. Isa 45:7 "I form light and create darkness, I make peace and create evil, I the Lord do all these things." Amo 3:6 "Shall there be evil in a city and the Lord hath not done it?" I believe that too, Jesse. Man brought all of these things upon themselves when they withdraw themselves from the purpose and plan of God and evil takes over. It's kind of like if you have a light on in a room and you turn the dimmer switch down more darkness comes in and invades the room. Or if you decide to start eating junk food instead of healthy food your body physically begins to suffer. God could definately stop a tornado but something has to cause that tornado to stop like prayer ect...Other times God can protect us from the tornado but tornados are inevitable because of the damage sin has brought upon the earth. Just like the fact our physical bodies break down even though we are saved, flesh is still flesh.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Feb 8, 2008 16:12:39 GMT -5
Greg Bahnsen has a chapter called "The Problem of Evil" in his book "Always Ready".
Basically he explains how the problem of evil is not a problem for the Christian at all, but it is a problem for the unbeliever. Because in the world of an unbeliever, good and evil are just a subjective opinion and not an absolute universal standard. So for the unbeliever to claim certain things to be absolutely evil is to in fact contradict their own position.
When I was in an airport trying to get into Canada once, the security and immigration wanted to ask me some questions. Eventually this man asked me my religious views (about abortion) so I felt at liberty to ask him his view. He said, "I don't believe in God anymore". So I asked, "Well, why not?" He said, "I've seen to many evils in the world." I said, "Well, if there is no absolute God, there is no absolute evil." To which he quickly ended our discussion and let me into Canada.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Feb 8, 2008 16:50:06 GMT -5
Greg Bahnsen has a chapter called "The Problem of Evil" in his book "Always Ready". Basically he explains how the problem of evil is not a problem for the Christian at all, but it is a problem for the unbeliever. Because in the world of an unbeliever, good and evil are just a subjective opinion and not an absolute universal standard. So for the unbeliever to claim certain things to be absolutely evil is to in fact contradict their own position. When I was in an airport trying to get into Canada once, the security and immigration wanted to ask me some questions. Eventually this man asked me my religious views (about abortion) so I felt at liberty to ask him his view. He said, "I don't believe in God anymore". So I asked, "Well, why not?" He said, "I've seen to many evils in the world." I said, "Well, if there is no absolute God, there is no absolute evil." To which he quickly ended our discussion and let me into Canada. Yes, that's the strictly presuppositional way to deal with it. A lot of people I've talked to, don't really receive that argument- or they don't really understand it. It works with philosopher type people, but not just your average Joe. That's been my experience anyways.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Feb 8, 2008 17:14:44 GMT -5
If someone accepts that God is:
Omnibenevolent Omniscient Omnipotent
Then it must logically follow as a conclusion, given this premise, that God has a loving and wise reason for allowing moral evil and for causing natural evil.
But it is very important to distinguish between moral evil and natural evil, as has already been done. The former relates to God's moral government, the latter relates to God's natural government. The former is something God allows, the latter is something God causes.
But if it is conceded that God is all loving and all wise, then it must follow that God has a loving and a wise reason for allowing moral evil and for causing natural evil.
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Post by rebecca on Feb 8, 2008 17:20:35 GMT -5
"Well, if there is no absolute God, there is no absolute evil.". That's good, I'll have to remember that. I'm a firm believer in absolutes. This whole thread got me thinking about sickness and disease. Either it's totally God or totally not God. I believe it definitely of course is not of God. I don't believe there are any grey areas.
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Post by John McGlone on Feb 8, 2008 21:44:28 GMT -5
This is great, revK and I were speaking of this on the way home today. I couldn't find the scripture that came to my mind....
Isaiah 45:7 7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
this word evil in the Hebrew is ra, plenty of definitions.....
7451 ra` rah from 7489; bad or (as noun) evil (natural or moral):-- adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease(-ure), distress, evil((- favouredness), man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief(-vous), harm, heavy, hurt(-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief(-vous), misery, naught(-ty), noisome, + not please, sad(-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked(-ly, -ness, one), worse(-st), wretchedness, wrong. (Incl. feminine raaah; as adjective or noun.).
-God can cause natural destruction(judgements) -God can allow satan to cause natural destruction(testings) -God is morally good -satan is morally evil
Exd 32:12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.
Exd 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
1Sa 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.
Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.
Psa 5:4 For thou [art] not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.
What is the conclusion? Well, I believe that we need to really carefully examine the meaning of the particular word in context of the verses and chapters. Herman who?
Our english words are too simple and easily manipulated. We "love" both pizza and Mom.
So I humbly ask, of all the definitions offered in the above Hebrew lexicon which will the Holy Spirit apply to God for you personally?
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 8, 2008 22:29:01 GMT -5
This has been my experience as well. When I preached at UNC-Wilmington in the fall, I tried presuppositional apologetics on them. They just did not get it. They were just not smart enough. I'm not trying to insult them, but it is true. I think I did a pretty good job of explaining it and they just stared at me with a blank stare and called ME stupid. I thought to myself...um...nevermind then...
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 8, 2008 22:34:08 GMT -5
I understand what you were saying now John, and what verses you were referring to. The NKJV translates "evil" as calamity. I thought you were saying that there are verses in the Bible that say God causes moral evil. Good thread...
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Post by Josh Parsley on Feb 9, 2008 10:16:02 GMT -5
Yeah. I think if you are a strict presupper you really only have one argument (TAG). And if they don't "get" the argument or don't even come close to receiving it... what do you have left? That's why I like a guy named Ron Nash. I believe he was taught under Gordon Clark, but he doesn't use his apologetic much. Listening to Nash has really helped me add some "tools to the belt." But since I don't preach much on campuses my tools are a little rusty. I don't seem to deal with near as much philosophical stuff on the street as I do when I'm on a campus. You can listen to a semester of Nash teaching on the below link. I recommend it to anyone. I think he might be Calvinist, but I really don't see it come through in his lectures. Nothing like when I have read stuff from Van Til. www.biblicaltraining.org/class.php?class=TH601
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Feb 9, 2008 21:51:49 GMT -5
Another question that, in apologetics would be called "the problem of evil" or in theology would have to do with "theodicy" has to do with evil and God's omniscience and foreknowledge.
Suppose that God foreknows which persons, before He creates them, will live in sin - die in sin - and go to hell in sin. If He foreknows that their condemnation is certain, before He creates them, why does He still create them? Does He create them so that they will sin and go to hell??
I know the Calvinist answer and the Open Theist answer. But I guess I haven't heard any Arminian answer.
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Post by rebecca on Feb 10, 2008 13:15:57 GMT -5
Another question that, in apologetics would be called "the problem of evil" or in theology would have to do with "theodicy" has to do with evil and God's omniscience and foreknowledge. Suppose that God foreknows which persons, before He creates them, will live in sin - die in sin - and go to hell in sin. If He foreknows that their condemnation is certain, before He creates them, why does He still create them? Does He create them so that they will sin and go to hell?? I know the Calvinist answer and the Open Theist answer. But I guess I haven't heard any Arminian answer. I was thinking that maybe He just knew us but didn't know the unbeliever. Jeremiah 1:5 " Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations." Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
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luvofchrist
Full Member
"Gibson" the wonder pup
Posts: 233
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Post by luvofchrist on Feb 14, 2008 14:39:22 GMT -5
I believe that evil has always existed. The world - God= evil light - light = darkness darkness-darkness=light good- good= evil evil- evil= good I know it's short and sweet but I thought this over a long time ago and that's what I came up with. Isaiah 45:7 7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. I believe what the above verse is saying is that when God comes on the scene evil manifests to show that it is evil. When you preach the gosple you are showing that man is sinful. Without the law we would not know that sin exists.I posted this in "World views" but I think it's a good analogy to attach to this post as it is a good analogy for explaining evil: When people dialogue and witness to atheists they can often get the: "There is no God because there's too much evil in the world!" Well, when the atheist posits that remark the burden of proof is on them to explain HOW they know what evil is. Don't let them get away with saying that they just "know" what evil is. No, they have to have a reference point. Someone once said that it's like sailing on a cloudy night without a compass. Another example is one someone shared with me recently. He went scuba diving in an underwater cave. He said it was soooooo dark that you literally could not tell which direction you were swimming in unless you had your flashlight on and the guide was directing you. He said that his guide told him that even experienced divers have gone into the caves and died because they lost their sense of direction, swam in the wrong direction, exhausted their supply of oxygen and died. That's like evil. The atheist only knows evil because he sees rays of light, otherwise he would just be lost in the dark not knowing which was up. That light is God’s moral law.
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Post by unclebill on May 10, 2008 19:04:14 GMT -5
Jesse said; "God creates natural evil. God is directly the cause of natural evil. Every flood, every tornado, every fire storm, every earth quake, all of it is the hand of God. God's omnipotence is directly in charge of, and directly in control of, all natural evils."
I disagree, Jesse. I don't believe god created ANY evil, He created free will, which gives his creatures the option of choosing evil over good. This teaching that God creates ALL natural disasters is un-biblical and creates unnecessary excuses for unbelievers to hate God even more than they do.
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Post by mattmisk on May 21, 2008 5:49:47 GMT -5
Concerning the problem of evil, use the contrapositive.
This:
1) Evil that has no purpose exists. 2) God would not allow evil without purpose. 3) Therfore, God does not exist.
Becomes:
1) God exists. 2) God would not allow evil without purpose. 3) Therefore, Evil without purpose does not exist.
This is my favorite way to deal with the problem. Both arguments have a common assumption (2) and both arguments have a unique assumption (1). The atheist assumes that "Evil exists without purpose" and the Christian assumes "God exists". Logically, both arguments are just as valid. So you see that the "problem of evil" translates to "I start with the assumption that..."
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