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Post by sean on Mar 6, 2008 22:23:56 GMT -5
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 6, 2008 22:40:31 GMT -5
Can you explain to me how Paul Washer can say, "oh that we would forsake our sins" when he believes that it isn't our choice anyways, but it is God's choice? Paul Washer complains a lot about the state of the world and the state of the Church. But doesn't He believe that God planned everything before the foundation of the world? If so, then isn't Paul Washer complaining about the plan of God?
I like a lot of what Paul Washer says. I just don't see how it is compatible or consistent with his Calvinism. He sounds so much like an Arminian.
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Post by sean on Mar 6, 2008 22:44:48 GMT -5
Can you explain to me how Paul Washer can say, "oh that we would forsake our sins" when he believes that it isn't our choice anyways, but it is God's choice? Paul Washer complains a lot about the state of the world and the state of the Church. But doesn't He believe that God planned everything before the foundation of the world? If so, then isn't Paul Washer complaining about the plan of God? I like a lot of what Paul Washer says. I just don't see how it is compatible or consistent with his Calvinism. He sounds so much like an Arminian. “The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but those things which are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law. (Deu 29:29) True Calvinism preaches the Sovereignty of God and the Responsibility of Man.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 6, 2008 22:54:01 GMT -5
That seems to be the fall back answer Calvinists have been using for years, "I see the contradiction but I cannot explain it, it's a mystery".
(But when Calvinists want to know how open theism and prophecy are compatible, which they are, I'm sure they wouldn't be satisfied if I just quoted Deut. 29:29.)
But if everything is God's plan, being angry with sin, hating sin, being grieved with sin, is all being angry with God's plan, hating God's plan, and being grieved with God's plan.
God being the cause and author of everything not only takes away man's responsibility, but it also destroys the possibility of regret. For how can we regret our sin without regretting God's plan? It also destroys holy hatred, for how can we hate sin without hating God's plan? It also destroys holy grief, for how can we grieve over sin without being grieved with God's plan.
When Jesus wept over Jerusalem because He wanted to save it, but they did not want to be saved, Calvinism says that Jesus didn't really want to save it or else it would have been saved. And if Jesus really did weep over it, Jesus was weeping over the plan of God.
The absurdities go on and on.
The truth is, preachers like Spurgeon, Piper, Washer, and others have to sound like Arminians if they are going to preach at all, they have to betray their own position and be inconsistent in order to sound like Christians in their preaching at all.
God is Sovereign, but His will is not always done on the earth. Sinners are in rebellion against the Sovereign plan of God. If someone calls that a contradiction, maybe they should read Deut 29:29. But in reality, Sovereignty doesn't mean that God causes everything, or that God's will is always done. Sovereignty means that God is the ultimate authority, there is none higher then Him, and we are accountable to Him.
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Post by John McGlone on Mar 9, 2008 7:08:04 GMT -5
Forgive me, how does Calvinism teach the responsibility of man? I understand that some are 'elected' to salvation and most others to damnation according to this doctrine. Is that true or false?
If God's grace is irresistable, how is it that most of humanity seems to be very successful at resisting the same. Isn't God's grace offered freely to all and resisted by most?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 9, 2008 10:55:53 GMT -5
My understanding is that Calvinism doesn't teach responsibility at all yet strangely does teach accountability.
Calvinism says that we are not responsible for being sinners, it's not our fault, we were born that way, it is Adam who is responsible for it.
And we are not responsible for being converted saints, it's not our choice, God eternally decreed that we should be.
Calvinism denies responsibility yet at the same time admits accountability.
In Calvinism, we are not responsible for being sinners yet we are accountable for being sinners. But how can you have accountability without responsibility? How can we be accountable for being sinners if it isn't our fault? If God eternally decreed it, it's God's fault. Or if Adam did it, it's his fault. But if we are born that way and cannot help it, we are cripples and not criminals, it is not our fault.
How can we deserve hell for being sinners if it isn't our fault and if we cannot help it? If we are sinners because of Adam, because we don't have a free will but because we have a sinful nature that makes us sin, how can we deserve punishment?
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Post by evangelistc on Jan 2, 2009 13:36:27 GMT -5
My thoughts exactly
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