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Post by john316yes on Apr 29, 2008 13:47:46 GMT -5
Im actually getting ready to go to seminary, God willing. Yes, I think Jesse should go to seminary because if you want to be an effective teacher of theology, you need training. Or if you plan to go to another country and start a new church, it helps to be trained. We dont need a Christian people going over seas teaching theology as Jesses has, with out Godly and professional training, it's wrong. Titus and Timothy had the best teacher, Paul, and Paul also had teachers, and the Apostles had Jesus as a teacher. If we are going to be effective, we need professional and Godly training.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Apr 29, 2008 14:17:05 GMT -5
The problem with your logic is that there are people who have been to seminary that have come to the same conclusions Jesse has. Pick a doctrine of Jesse's that you don't like and I am almost 100% sure you can find a person who has a doctorate that holds that same position. Pick a Calvinist doctrine and you can do the same. There are several things I don't agree with Jesse on, but I don't think the reason he disagrees with me is because he is ignorant. I guess it's possible, but I really doubt it. You act as if he was "really" educated he would agree with....who?...you?
It's funny I even feel like I need to take this position. I am actually a strong supporter of Christian education. I also know there are lots of people who have been to seminary for years who know absolutely nothing about Christian ministry. Education without God is a fraud.
This example doesn't work. It's impossible for you to show that Titus and Timothy were under the same structure of a modern seminary. There is no reason to think that Titus and Timothy went and got a bachelors degree then went to seminary before they taught any doctrine. It could be argued that the education you are promoting would cause people to sin. How? Because you will be in debt after all those years. Do you think God is commanding some to be in debt? Do you know of any where someone can get a free bachelors (since you need one to enroll in most seminaries) and then graduate seminary for free? Titus and Timothy probably didn't have to pay Paul tuition...
By the way, I'm not convinced it's sinful to go to college even though you will probably have to pay off loans. I'm actually paying off loans from from my degree now. I was just saying what I did to show a point.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Apr 29, 2008 14:24:39 GMT -5
There is also the presupposition that Seminaries are always right and correct doctrinally.
There may be some very good Seminaries, with some very good doctrine, taught by some very godly men.
But isn't it possible that there are Seminaries who are wrong doctrinally?
For example, Dallas theological Seminary I am told teaches Easy Believism.
Besides, Seminaries disagree with each other. There are Catholic Seminaries, Methodist Seminaries, Baptist Seminaries, Calvinist Seminaries.
Which seminary should I go to?
Some Seminaries teach Eternal Security, some teach Conditional Security. Some teach Penal Substitution, some teach Governmental Atonement. Some teach Calvinism. Some teach Arminianism. Some teach both!
Was there a particular seminary you had in mind john316? Do you want me to go to a Methodist Seminary and learn Arminianism? Or to a Baptist Seminary and learn Calvinism?
I am all for Christian education. But there are many ways to be educated. You can have personal mentors (I have), you can be constantly reading Christian books (I do), or you could go to Bible College or Seminary (I haven't). I personally favor mentorships and books over a College or a Seminary. I have my reasons. And I am sure others have their reasons to favor Colleges and Seminaries over mentorships and books.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Apr 29, 2008 14:33:53 GMT -5
Amen.
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Post by john316yes on Apr 29, 2008 20:53:41 GMT -5
Jesse, I know you do not like the doctrine of Martin Luther or John Calvin or any doctrine from the reformation movement, so I would not recomend a reformed college, although I would recomend going to legioners, the RC Sproul institute. That being said, I would recomend going to a seminary of your chosing, that way when you write doctrinal books you can say you have a degree, and assure your readers that your are not some psycho. Also, you will at least have a formal education, all the while being led by Godly and wise men. For being doctrinally correct, that's your problem, you are the one who will be judged by GOD.
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Post by john316yes on Apr 29, 2008 21:00:54 GMT -5
Because as you ask for support without a degree, especially if you do not have a job, it looks bad. That is the impression that I got. Im not trying to bash because I hate you, but Im just concerned. Maybe you should Get a part time job, slow down a little bit, gather your thoughts, study, then go back on the front lines full time with a degree and wisdom. Thats it. Brother, you are still young, and if it is God's will that you continue your ministry till your old, then you are going to need that extra wisdom and help.
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Post by joemccowan on Apr 29, 2008 21:04:16 GMT -5
I have done all of the above and can honestly say that I have learned more from preaching, studying, reading, being mentored and ministry experience in general, than I ever did from my seminary training. I am all for education, but I don't buy into the entire "if you don't have a degree, you don't know anything" line of reasoning. Your discussions will either reveal your scholarship or your ignorance, regardless of your educational background. It has been proven time and again on forums such as this.
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Post by yadanni on Apr 29, 2008 21:19:21 GMT -5
NAS Acts 4:13 Now as they observed the confidence of Peter and John, and understood that they were uneducated and untrained men, they were marveling, and began to recognize them as having been with Jesus.
No where are we commanded to go to seminary in the New Testament, optional. There are so many other ways of learning, mentors, teachers, books, audios, dvds, internet forums, fellowship. The Holyspirit can and does use all these means. Most seminaries sad to say are like cemetaries where young zealous believers go to get grounded in the word. Well they sure do get grounded most often 10ft deep in luke warm religion, philosphies, possiblities and dead cold dry doctrine. Away with such things.
These grads full of head knowledge cant wait for a platform to elevate themselves and show off there idol of bible knowledge. Away with such ineffective, powerless christianity.
NAS John 7:17 "If any man is willing to do His will, he shall know of the teaching, whether it is of God, or whether I speak from Myself.
If we are willing and have purposed in our hearts to do the Lords will, ultimately and irevocably on the earth as it is in heaven, we shall know wether the teaching be of God or not. The motive of the heart in studying scripture is most vital and most neglected. True doctrine is functional and always leads to Jesus and to become like Jesus. If it is not doing that it is intellectual knowledge! Hog wash! The devil is not at all threatened by such puffed up, pride filled, dead, tearless, uncompassionate, unloving scholars! he yawns at such fools!
Is your doctrine causing you to weep for the broken heart of God, the sleeping church and the lost rebellious world headed for a eternity in the lake of Fire! Is it exposing the state of your own true spiritual condition in comparison to Jesus our example. Then we should be alarmed ! Jesus and Paul had perfect doctrine and not just in there head but there hearts. It moved them mightly. You may get all the doctrines right, but has it broken your heart and revolutionized your life! And is it impacting a crooked and perverse generation!
NAS Revelation 2:4 'But I have this against you, that you have left your first love.
Correct theology is so important yet the means of attaining is all the more important.
thats my take
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Post by logic on Apr 29, 2008 21:54:12 GMT -5
1John 2:27 But the anointing which you have received of him abides in you, and you need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teaches you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it has taught you, you shall abide in him.
Moriel = God is my Teacher
I am Ordained, but never when to Semitary.
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Post by John McGlone on Apr 29, 2008 22:11:34 GMT -5
Jesse is the best student and open air preacher I have ever had the priviledge to work with or know. Most men who go to seminary never make it back to the harvest field. The sinners keep on flowing in to hell while men are studying....
The word of God goes forth in the power of the Holy Spirit, not the professionalism of men.
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Post by john316yes on Apr 29, 2008 22:48:14 GMT -5
Well, that is my opinnion and I am entitled to it. Im not saying that you cant witness or even help out athe church mentoring somebody, but to write books and preach in a church with out a degree, is a no no!
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Post by Kerrigan on Apr 30, 2008 6:36:37 GMT -5
Well, that is my opinnion and I am entitled to it. Im not saying that you cant witness or even help out athe church mentoring somebody, but to write books and preach in a church with out a degree, is a no no! Says who!? YOU? It's too bad that you aren't the person who sets the standard. As usual, you are presented with Scripture after Scripture to that comes against what you say and yet you still hold to ANTI-Scriptural positions! What are you planning on learning in Cemetery, more thoughts of men that aren't backed up by Scripture?
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Post by john316yes on Apr 30, 2008 22:33:30 GMT -5
Im not going to argue with you, Im just saying that I think it is smart to to go to seminary and get educated. Every person who planned on writing books to encorage the church, had an education: John macarthur, Billy Grahm, Johnathen Edwards, Martin Luther, John Calvin, and Rc Sproul all had degrees, and so do the pastors at my church. If you plan on taking big steps to encourage God's people, it would be wise to go to seminary, if you do not agree, you can do what ever you want, I gurantee you will not be as succesful as God wants you to be in your ministry, that is, if you really have devoted your life completly to the Lord.
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Post by joemccowan on May 1, 2008 7:03:00 GMT -5
Im not going to argue with you, Im just saying that I think it is smart to to go to seminary and get educated. Every person who planned on writing books to encorage the church, had an education: John macarthur, Billy Grahm, Johnathen Edwards, Martin Luther, John Calvin, and Rc Sproul all had degrees, and so do the pastors at my church. If you plan on taking big steps to encourage God's people, it would be wise to go to seminary, if you do not agree, you can do what ever you want, What about the Apostles and the authors of the Scriptures? What about the Early Church Fathers? Was Justin Martyr ignorant? What about Clement of Rome, Mathetes, Polycarp, Ignatius, Barnabas, Papias, Irenaeus, etc.? Was John the Baptist ignorant also? The NT Church has been around for two thousand years and the majority of the revered writings in our history were composed by men of no formal education. The list you provided shows that your understanding of Christianity only spans about 500yrs. After reading your post, I agree that it would be a good idea for you to seek some sort of formal education. I don't believe it is a necessity for those who are capable of learning independently of such institutions. Given that I have a degree in theology, my opinion obviously holds more weight than yours (by your own standard) This is an extremely ignorant statement, expecially for a thread in which you are contending for formal education.
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Post by logic on May 1, 2008 8:10:44 GMT -5
Jesse is the best student and open air preacher I have ever had the priviledge to work with or know. Most men who go to seminary never make it back to the harvest field. The sinners keep on flowing in to hell while men are studying.... The word of God goes forth in the power of the Holy Spirit, not the professionalism of men. It seems to me that most people who go to semitary are hirelings. The hireling flees, because he is a hireling, and cares not for the sheep, but his 401k "retirement package". The hireling go to semitary for a career, not for a calling. Most of them are motivational speakers behind the pulpit without the spirit.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on May 1, 2008 8:46:07 GMT -5
If I could find a Seminary that taught Moral Government theology (Finneyism), I would go to it. But all the Seminaries I know teach Augustinianism, Calvinism, Lutheranism, or Wesleyanism. And I don't want to spend that much time and money to go to a Seminary that teaches something I don't agree with. Seminaries are very expensive and very time consuming, and honestly, the Lord has too much ministry for me to do then to take that much time off and to get into that much debt. I would have loved to have gone to Oberlin University when Asa Mahan and Charles Finney taught there. But now Oberlin is known for it's homosexual population! They even had a Chaplin who referred to God as "she". Maybe I can start a University like Oral Roberts did, except my University would teach Moral Government theology.
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Post by Jeffrey Olver on May 1, 2008 9:26:06 GMT -5
...What kind of giant statue would you put in the front of your campus?
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Post by jackjackson on May 1, 2008 10:55:53 GMT -5
A couple of years ago I thought (wasn't led) that I should go to seminary. It just seemed like the next step.
I was out with my family to get an icecream cone and saw a man sitting alone. I asked my family to excuse me for a minute while I went over to offer the man a tract and take his spiritual temperature. He eventually started to laugh. Why? Because this man was a dean of a seminary in the Los Angeles area. I told him that I had been thinking of going to seminary and you won't believe his response. "Don't tell anyone which seminary I am from, but know that I wouldn't want you to come here, because I am afraid we would ruin you!" "You have something I can't teach here, the calling and annoiting of God on you."
So I had been considering what to do about seminary, and God placed that Dean of a Seminary in my path with that message. My situation was forever settled.
Jesse, and many brothers and sister on thos forum have something very special, which only comes from the Lord, boldness! Cut of the same cloth as the original Apostles, many are unafraid of what men will say. They are not impressed with the credentials of men, and even will challenge others with "degrees" by their own "heat" received as a fire from on high. John Bunyan didn't have a degree, and the authorities claimed he couldn't teach because of it. They were wrong? A true story about Robert Sheffy which can be seen in a movie called "Sheffy" were they wouldn't give him a "license" because he wasn't trained, that is to say, they were not the ones that trained him.
Walter Martin in Cult of Liberalism goes hard against the liberalism that had even 30 years ago flooded into the nations seminaries. Satan is no stupid! He knew that to control the seminaries (most) he could control the minds of new preachers.
Those impressed by men and their credentials should read Luke 16:14-17. One need only consider the older scriptures and find men like Amos, a farmer, called to be a prophet. hy didn't Jesus just grab the top 12 from a seminary of His day, rather than fisherman and a tax collector? The one that required the most training was Paul, because he had to learn that the oral laws were not all in line with His laws. His training in Torah was most useful, but the baggage of oral hallacha (dogmas of rabi's) was bad.
The same is true today. The books that govern certain denominations are 5 and 10 times more in volume than the Bible. The interpretations of men permeate the teaching, so that truth gets masked by traditions, just as much today, as in Jesus' day.
Have we learned anything from history? Just as they needed Jesus to set things back on scripture, the reformation was an attempt, but failed in many ways to go far enough. When traditions get taught as doctrine, we have little different than evolution taught as fact. Both blind men to the truth and need to be fought against hard for the doctrines first delivered. The Apostles would not recognize todays church.
They would be confused by the day the church now meets; the holidays that are paganized rather than the ones they and Jesus kept together; by the sin that is rampant and practiced in those claiming to call themselves followers; and be horrified by the way grace is being manipulated apart from the Torah leading to a cheap grace which is preached and taught.
Jesse preaches that we should be delivered from and therefore stop sinning, just as Jesus and the Apostles taught. He is willing to be maligned for truth. Most like him, and I include myself, teach that a person who enters back into the practice of sin can lose the sacrifice for sins (Hebrew 10:26-29). The difference I am finding among us who believe this is the length of the list of what is now called sin. The question is whether John in I John 3:4 was speaking of some law, or all law. Again, He twice uses #458 anomia. Brace yourselves! Heretic alert (you might say about me)!
Anomia #458 is without nomos #3551. Jesus is called the nomothetes #3550 or lawgiver in James 4:12; but when you cross reference passages from the newer scriptures where "nomos" is used to translate the word "torah", we don't get the picture of nomos being new laws, but the Torah that Jesus gave Moses.
So I John 3:4 defines sin as transgression of the Torah, which should be written on the heart of anyone in the new covenant.
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Post by logic on May 1, 2008 12:51:32 GMT -5
A couple of years ago I thought (wasn't led) that I should go to seminary. You made THEE point of this thread, right there. Since Jessie is following Christ, we are sure that HE would have lead him to semitary. The fact that Jessie is not going to one shows us that he was not lead, and the fact that has already thought about it shows that he is not being lead in that direction now. I pondered attending one about 20 years ago, I aplied and got most things in order, but God stopped me and lead me to do other things. Not everybody is suposed to go to semitary, even though they are deep into ministery.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on May 1, 2008 12:56:33 GMT -5
HAHA.
Well, since Oral Roberts has the giant golden hands praying, I figure that I can put a giant golden pointy finger!
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Post by Jesse Morrell on May 1, 2008 13:00:36 GMT -5
The Lord sometimes prefers to train His men in the backside of the desert, away from all of the corrupt religionists with their doctrines of men....
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Post by john316yes on May 1, 2008 17:39:48 GMT -5
Well Jesse, it is your choice, for me, Im going to seminary. Im going to get a formal education because I feel that is the best move. I have investigated that there are scholarships and grants that you can apply for, so there is really no excuse. i think it is ignorant not to and prideful, you should at least try, and after all possible tries and you fail and after lots of praying, then dont go. Im also paying off my loans from college and am alraedy half way through, praise God, our provider. Im praying to God right now to provide for me, and will learn soon if this is his will, its in my heart to help people see God, and if God sees my sincere heart and it really is sincere, then he will provide or not provide, either way I still win because God's wiil will be done.
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Post by HDmatt on May 3, 2008 21:00:52 GMT -5
A giant gold pointy finger! HAHAHHA thats awesome! well anyways.......I have been blessed by attending and studying under my pastor and assistant pastor at NLFC or new life Christian fellowship in pearl, ms. A good solid Bible school only on tuesday nights for 3-4 hours isn't so schedule consuming, and if the teachers are so anointed as Pastor and Br. Tim, you will get your money's worth! Also, we all respect Charles Finney!
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Post by John McGlone on May 3, 2008 22:23:52 GMT -5
J316, All of this reasoning on this thread and you still are unreasonable. Before you go to seminary, try obeying the Greatest Commandment; Love God with all of your heart, MIND, strength, and soul......You don't need a piece of paper brother!
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Post by bullhornbob on May 4, 2008 0:51:02 GMT -5
Why waste your time with this pharisee. He never even acknowledged messengermicah's challenge.
Read Matthew 23 for the semetary outline.
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kenm
Full Member
Posts: 173
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Post by kenm on May 8, 2008 12:31:08 GMT -5
I have the honor and privilege of preaching God's Word in various Churches that need interim or just fill in, but it troubles me when other preachers,that might be interested in the Church I am at, ask how many members do they have, how many are attending on Sunday service, or what are the facilities like. I do not want to sound judgmental but what happened to going where ever God calls you? How can a Pastor preach to trust in God fully when he himself is not trusting God fully to just go where God is leading and let God take care of the rest.
It is not just on the Pastors side that may be seeking a Church , but it is also on the Churches side when they are seeking a Pastor. I recently picked up a copy of a Church newsletter I get and on the back they have Churches seeking Pastors. The qualifications some Churches put on men to be considered to pastor would eliminate the very Apostles themselves. One Church was looking for a Pastor between the ages of 40-55, with at least 10-15 years experience and a seminary degree. They also had a whole list of other things on there wish list like must be good with the youth and have business and finance skills.
I am all for studying and seminary and learning God's Word, but when we put all focus on degrees and diplomas we are treating it more like a business interview instead of a God called position. The only qualifications needed are in God's Holy Word.
What happened to praying God would send the man that He wants there, and praying that God's will be done.
Jesus did not select well educated or eloquent speaking men, He chose those that would be dedicated to His service. They were not looking to make a career or get rich they did it because they had a burden to do God's will.
There is so much pressure on Pastors and Churches today to be entertaining so people will come and the attendance will be high and the offering large, but all God has called us to do is preach His Word so that His children will know it is by grace and mercy that they have salvation and that it is such a precious gift they will want to share that gift with everyone they come in contact with.
Seek and save that which is lost is our command.
John Wesley has an awesome quote "Give me one hundred preachers who fear nothing but sin, and desire nothing but God, and I care not a straw whether they be clergymen or laymen; such alone will shake the gates of hell and set up the Kingdom of Heaven on earth."
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