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Post by dale on May 4, 2008 18:39:30 GMT -5
Interested in serious discussion of these two beliefs and will have to admit use of scripture would be fitting for back up as this is a question I direct to the Christians.
I graduated from a Baptist College where the idea of eternal sanctification of the believer was a big thing (I believe in neither this nor the lost salvation angle so I am neutral here and the only thing my stint at this college taught me was to hate Baptists). Their theory is once you ate saved you are always saved and the general argument is while you might one day turn from God and be sorry he saved you, God is never sorry He saved you. The argument has its strong points. It also gives a person license to become a Christian than go right back to sinning or not honro his aprt of the bargain and still make it in on a technicality.
The other argument is for lost salvation which msot people here seem to favor. This has its high points too, but on the weaker side casts God as somewhat of an "Indian giver " who leaves the threat of losts alvation as a threat to keep you in tow. I have also heard certain evangelicals manipulate this argument to keep their followers devoted to them. One "healer" up in the Falls above us by about 45 miles, is real big on this. Naturally when a healign does not happen it is because the person lacked faith or if the healing didn't stick it was because that person backslid. Way of the Master people are also big on this, if you ehard their "where the seeds were sown" program in the series.
To me also, it becomes an oversimplified argument to say "If a person was REALLY saved he would never reject Christ or regret his decision."
Let me know what you think , but more importantly WHY.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on May 4, 2008 21:24:31 GMT -5
The “Once Saved, Always Saved” doctrine is false teaching (2 Pet. 2:1; Jude 1:4-5).
The Bible repeatedly and abundantly teaches the doctrine of probation or conditional security for believers (Eze. 3:20-21; 18:18-31; 33:12-20; Matt. 6:14-15; 10:22; 24:13; 24:48-51; 25:1-13; Mk. 4:16-19; 13:13; Jn. 6:66; 15:6; Acts 1:25; 11:23; 13:43; 14:22; Rom. 8:13; 11:20-23; 1 Cor. 3:16-17; 6:9-10; 9:27; 10:5-13; 15:1-2; Gal. 5:4-9; 5:19-21; 6:7-9; Col. 1:21-23; 1 Thes. 3:5; 3:8; 2 Thes. 2:3; 1 Tim. 1:5-6; 1:18-20; 3:6; 4:1; 4:16; 5:15; 2 Tim. 2:12; 4:9-10; Heb. 2:1; 2:3; 3:6; 3:8-15; 3:18-19; 4:1; 4:11; 4:14; 6:1; 6:8; 6:11-12; 6:15; 10:23; 10:26-31; 10:35-39; 12:14-15; 12:25; Jas. 1:13-16; 5:19-20; 2 Pet. 1:9; 2:20-22; 3:17; Rev. 2:4-7; 2:10-11; 2:17; 2:25-26; 3:2-5; 3:10-12; 3:16; 3:19; 3:20; 21:8; 22:15).
The Bible speaks of individuals who have fallen from the faith (Matt. 18:21-34; 24:10; Mk. 4:17; Lk. 8:13; Jn. 6:66; Acts 1:25 w. Matt. 19:28; 2 Thes. 2:3; 1 Tim. 1:19; 4:1; 2 Tim. 3:8; 4:10; Heb. 3:12-15; 4:1-11; 6:6; 2 Pet. 2:20-22; Jud. 1:5).
We have the example of the unforgiving servant who was forgiven of his unpaid debt, but then later had his debt reinstated because of his immoral conduct (Matt. 18:23-35). This parable clearly shows how the Lord can graciously pardon an individual and then later execute the punishment that they deserve.
We also see the example of the Apostle Judas who lost his salvation. Judas was a disciple of the Lord, and therefore left all to follow Jesus (Lk. 14:33), picked up his cross (Lk. 14:27), who even loved Jesus more then his own family (Lk. 14:26). Judas was picked by Jesus specifically to cast out devils, heal, and preach (Matt 10:1-27). Judas was a friend Jesus trusted (Ps. 41:9; Jn 13:18), so Judas kept the money (Jn. 12:6; 13:29). Jesus told Judas that He was shedding His blood for him (Lk. 22:14-20), and previously said that His name was written in the Lambs book of life (Lk. 10:20). Jesus even said that Judas was one of His sheep (Matt 10:1-4, 16), who received His truth (Matt 10:1-4, 8), who’s Father was God (Matt 10:1-4, 20), who even had a throne in Heaven upon which he would judge Israel (Matt. 19:28; Lk. 22:30). But then later we see that Judas became a devil (Jn. 6:70), and therefore it would have been better for him to have never been born (Mk. 14:21). He even began to steal money from the group (Jn. 12:6). Judas fell from his apostleship by his transgression (Acts 1:25) because He failed to do what Jesus picked him for, and his name was blotted out of the book of life (Ex. 23:33; Rev. 3:5).
So we can see that the atonement does not automatically or unconditionally save anyone. Many of those for whom Christ died will ultimately perish for their sin because they choose to continue in their sin (Heb. 10:26-31) instead of sinning no more. Though Christ died for all, many are on the broad road (Matt. 7:13). It’s possible to deny the Lord that bought us and thereby fall into condemnation (2 Pet. 2:1).
The wrath of God is impartial (Ex. 32:33; Deut. 10:17; Rom. 2:9; 2 Cor. 10:6; Col. 3:25; 2 Pet. 1:17; 1 Jn. 3:15; Rev. 21:8; 22:15), so anyone who consciously or knowingly transgresses or revolts is under condemnation (Jn. 3:19; Rom. 1:18; 2:6-11; Heb. 10:26-31; 1 Jn. 3:8; 3:15; 3:20; 2 Jn. 1:9) because God must uphold and enforce His laws as long as He is loving and caring, as long as He hates sin because He’s benevolent.
But if backsliders repent (Lk. 13:3; Jam. 5:19-20) and seek forgiveness (Matt. 6:12; 1 Jn. 1:9), they can be restored (Ps. 51:9; Jer. 3:22; 4:1; Lk. 15:20; 22:32; Rom. 11:23; Jas. 5:19-20) unless they are apostates (Heb. 6:4-6; 2 Cor. 13:5; 2 Tim. 3:8; Titus 1:14-16), having grieved away the Spirit (Matt. 12:31-32; Eph. 4:30), having resisted all possible influence (Heb. 6:4-6; 2 Tim. 3:8).
At conversion, we are not forgiven of all past, present, and future sins. (Or else we would never need to ask God for forgiveness again). But we are forgiven of past sins (Rom. 3:25, 2 Pet. 1:9) while future willful sins are not forgiven (Heb. 10:26-31), future sins would need to be dealt with when they come (Matt. 6:12; 1 Jn. 1:9)
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oaora
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Post by oaora on May 5, 2008 13:59:34 GMT -5
Dale asked me to leave my though's on this issue here on this thread..so here it goes. I don't believe that a person who is saved can lose their salvation. I've been in a few arguments with other believers on this issue and it certainly can be very divisive. I tend to stay away from this argument. There is an extreme to each side. One important thing to remember is that if a person is in sin. That the answer is always to repent. Secondly a person can walk away from Christianity. I know that God is active in the affairs of His children and I don't think He just lets them get away with it. I think a truly saved person is brought back into a right relationship with God. We're not responsible in keeping our salvation, but it is necessary to preserve, by faith. There is no salvation without a cross. Basically, sorry to be so short Dale but this is an argument that just never ends.
Dale, Give your life back to God for His unconditional use, meaning that if He revealed sin in your life later on, that you would repent. Believe and trust God....
================================= "We declare, state and define that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of all human beings that they submit to the Roman Pontiff Pope"--Pope Boniface VIII
"Neither is there salvation in any other [than Jesus]: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." --Acts 4:12
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Post by dale on May 5, 2008 14:52:34 GMT -5
Interesting thoughts.
Next?
As for myself, I am absolutely neutral, for I believe in neither concept. I am simply reading the posts from the Christians here..
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Post by Miles Lewis on May 5, 2008 19:45:59 GMT -5
Yeah, I believe a Christian can fall away. The Bible says in many, many different clear ways that especially in the last days, MANY will fall away.
Hebrews chapter 3 seems pretty clear when it warns, "BRETHREN, take heed, lest there be in any of YOU an evil heart of unbelief in DEPARTING from the living God".
Jesse's list of scriptures up top would cover many clear verses pointing towards "losing salvation".
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oaora
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Post by oaora on May 5, 2008 21:37:16 GMT -5
Miles, I'm not going to argue with you too much on this issue...don't want to anger you and turn you away from attending my arbitrating hearing.
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Post by joemccowan on May 6, 2008 7:14:18 GMT -5
This is only a debate because many people don't understand what salvation is or why it is offered.
Man was created in the image of God, to be a reflection of His glory. When man chooses to sin, he chooses to deny the purpose for his existence, refusing to live according to God's intention for him. A man walking in sin has no eternal usefulness to God. It is kind of like a broken mirror that can no longer serve its purpose by reflecting the image in front of it. Those who continue to walk in sin are cast out of God's presence eternally and are subject only to His wrath. God did not send Jesus as a "get out of hell free card", but to redeem us from sin to our original purpose; to bare the image of God before all of creation. In the new heaven and earth only those who have chosen to willingly submit to the authority of God, live according to His purpose, love God supremely and love their neighbors as themselves, will abide there eternally with God.
Jesus came to lead the way out of sin and into the presence of God. If you are walking in sin, you are not following Jesus. If you are following Jesus, you will not continue in sin, as He will never lead you into sin. It is sin that we are being saved from, not hell. Hell is not the problem. Sin is the problem. To say that you can live in sin and still be saved is to deny that salvation is from sin.
Hbr 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 [It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. 32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions; 33 Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used. 34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. 36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. 38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if [any man] draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
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Post by John McGlone on May 6, 2008 7:23:10 GMT -5
If OSAS is true can you offer massive verses to contend with the mountain of scripture against the same?
2 Cor 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of; but the sorrow of the world leads to death.
God saves those that are broken hearted, contrite, regretful of their sin/crimes against Him and what it cost to remit sin.
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oaora
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Post by oaora on May 6, 2008 19:10:24 GMT -5
Yes, John I know....Joe I don't have the patience to read your post. This has been debated and debated over and over again. I'm sure that this is why Dale has made the post, so that we argue. I haven't moved at all in my position since the start of this debate....like two years ago. I've talked to people who believe that you do lose your salvation when you walk away from God and we have a great deal of common ground and minister together. The moderate positions on both sides are very similar. I think there is broad agreement there.
I haven't committed any sins that would require a loss of my salvation (in your book) since I've been saved. But this isn't because I believe your position and that I am held in obedience that way. It's because I see what a difference Jesus makes in a persons life. This is the reason I'm red hot in my walk.....because I understand the immediate need to advance the Kingdom of God. I've sacrificed a great deal for it...where I believe many others would not have...if in my place. So please don't imply that you have any moral high ground because of your theology. Because there are problems with your extreme side....
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oaora
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Post by oaora on May 6, 2008 19:18:27 GMT -5
The other thing Joe...don't move the goal posts in this debate. I NEVER said that it was ok to live in sin.
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Post by dale on May 6, 2008 19:35:00 GMT -5
No, not exactly Patriot and I see you are presumptive as always. If I wanted to really be a spreader of strife, (that was the quote from way back when, not sower of strife as I looked back and found it). I would have given plenty of input to egg this on. Somehow, is it so inconceivable to you that I might have an itnerest in a couple fo spiritual topics, yet due to rhe rules of the game, do not go to the believers only section of the board, where spiritual theories come up. If it ahs been debated for two eyars, it is news to me., Once again, Patriot, you rpesume more than you know as far as I am concerned, but your trying to second guess me always was your downfall in trying to top me, wasn't it! The more things change , the more they remain the same.
Actually, if you must know, it was Jesse's tirade against the eternal sanctification case, that got me going ont hsi thread, in the thread about hsi friend dying and I do feel for him in this respect, do nto get me wrong there. Alsio you forget I went to a Baptist college where the eternal sanctification theory was shoved down my throat to the point of leaving me constipated,. which of course is in direct contrast to what most of the Christians believe here, so I honestly sought some extra views from both sides.
This is the last I will post on this particular thread, should it continue, unless my name directly comes up again.
Did I ever specifically say, ok Christians, fight among yourselves?
Once more, Patriot , you speak without thinking when concerning me.
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oaora
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Post by oaora on May 6, 2008 19:43:20 GMT -5
Oh please Dale you have braged about being a spreader of strife. I think the most productive way to discuss this issue is between believers. Because there is just to much information. As for you Dale. If your thinking about this...then it is good news.
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Post by joemccowan on May 6, 2008 19:46:15 GMT -5
1) It was a short post and half of it was scripture. 2) Considering we are discussing eternal matters, 90 secs worth of reading doesn't seem like much The other thing Joe...don't move the goal posts in this debate. I NEVER said that it was ok to live in sin. 3) I was addressing the original post which asked; "Let me know what you think , but more importantly WHY" 4) Your post did not inspire my response on this thread. Get over yourself.
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oaora
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Post by oaora on May 6, 2008 19:58:59 GMT -5
This was your first sentence: This is only a debate because many people don't understand what salvation is or why it is offered.
It implied that you were talking to me....since I'm the only one on the other side of the debate. Joe if your going to misrepresent the "other side"...then no I don't have the time. Maybe someone else will?
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Post by dale on May 6, 2008 21:13:54 GMT -5
A leopard can't change his spots and a Patriot can't change his smugness, can he? You never learn.
On this thread I said let me know what you think. Did I say anything about debating this issue and turn it into some kind of holy war among yourselves? You're the ones doing this, not me. In fact, I said let me know what you think, so why don't you just do so and if you have to get into arguments among yourselves, why don;t you just take it back to your own thread in the believers section!
As for you, Patriot , swallow your pride! Repent!
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oaora
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Post by oaora on May 6, 2008 21:42:20 GMT -5
Repent from what?
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Post by dale on May 7, 2008 7:48:39 GMT -5
Repent of making presumptions. Because you are such a basket case for Christ I even asked you to post your views on this because I was curious to see where you came from on it.
I started this thread and plan to do a couple of other what do you think type threads for two reasons
1. The nonbeliever section of this webpage was as dead as Jesus on the cross, before I started posting here again. I figured with topics luke this one we could make the threads a bit more interesting than the usual exchange of beliefs/disbeliefs or celebrity carrying a one man lecture series with the voices in his head.
2. I figured that I would introduce a couple of topics where the Christians could talk to or witness to me, though I hate that term as well, on a couple of topics where they told me precisely what they thoughts and on topics they could get me to halfway listen to or consider. Thjis is why I said I wouldn't argue about the views on each threadand not log on unless my name came up, which you have chosen to do.
3. I am not a moderator , but I am nto going to let these particular threads get highjacked . If you want to argue with me, fine. Take it to the Christians come out and play thread and we can make it business as usual just like before. If you want to turn this into a debate among yourselves, start another thread in your believers section and start it over there. I am goign to start another what do yout hink type of thread shortly and probably a few more. On these, ler's keep it to what you think. You are supposed to addressing me on this thread and on these subsequent ones specifically, not bickering among yourselves which is of no concern to me.
4. With this in mind, is there anyone else who wants to jump in on this who has not done so already and tell ME what they think AND why, concerning this issue.
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kenm
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Post by kenm on May 7, 2008 11:08:36 GMT -5
I will give my view with scripture references as to why I believe, but I wish to make it clear that debates over whether we can lose salvation or not overshadows the fact that people need salvation first and most importantly. If a person truly comes to Christ and experiences salvation he or she is not going to be doing anything that may cause them to lose such a precious gift.
In 2 Cor. 5:17 We become a new creation through Jesus Christ In Col 3:10 We are to put on the new self in the image of the creator 1 John 3:9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning because His seed abides in him 1 John 5:18 God protects His children and the evil one does not touch him 1 John 4:4 He that is in you is greater than he who is in the world 1 John 1:9 As Christians we are not perfect, we sin, but we can not continue to live in that sin without repentance. God is just to forgive if we ask.
I do not believe this gives a person the freedom to sin and then just ask forgiveness only to do it again. That is not repentance. I do not believe that if we sin it can take away our salvation.
2 Cor.1:22 Put a seal on us given us His Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee. The picture is engagement ring for the Church, Jesus is coming back for. Ephesians 4:30 sealed for the day of redemption Ephesians 1:13 Sealed with the promise of The Holy Spirit Ephesians 1:14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance
If we are made new, sealed with the Holy Spirit,told that He is greater than he in the world, how can any sin of this world break the seal or promise of the One that is greater.
A Christian that is a recovering Alcoholic, if he slips and has one drink does that forfeit his Salvation or does it take a week in a drunken stupor.
If Salvation can not be earned through works (Eph 2:8-9) than by what works can it be lost.
I want to again say that if a person is truly saved he or she is going to do their best to live a life for Christ, will we falter? YES will He forgive us? YES
We must repent from our sins, do our best, and with God's help try to live a life that reveals Christ to the world.
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oaora
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Post by oaora on May 7, 2008 18:14:34 GMT -5
Awsome post!!
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Post by dale on May 7, 2008 18:54:14 GMT -5
For once Patriot, you and I agree on something and I am not really violating my own rule on this thread as I am not against pro or against per se. I also think (and how much I might or might not agree with the above is nott he issue here), the guy above makes a good post. He comes on, he says what he thinks, doesn't really get into any issue with anybody , backs it up as he figures best (again whether I agree with it or not is secondary ) and splits.
In truth, when you guys can keep from fighting among yourselves, both sides have presented their cases well. Interestign reflections from both sides of the issue.
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Post by art on Jun 8, 2008 10:38:21 GMT -5
Losing salvation is a thing the catholic church has used to extort believers into blind sumbission for centuries as fools who are afraid are easy to control . Look what has happened in the USA under the Bush regime for a prime example. I see by this board that the catholic church is not alone in exploiting the belief that your god can take back his gift at any time, and will, for the slightest ifnraction. Keeps you all in tow, does it?
While the faith you all believe in is absurd to any thinking man, you all take it to new and even more laughable lengths. Not only do you have to accept the supposed son of god as a savior, but then have to follow every rule set for him like a private in the foreign legion under the eyes of a drill sergeant or it ends up the punishment cell for you.
Why you peopel can love and serve something as this stuns me. I would really like to hear why you believe this way. It is beyond common sense.
Are you suppsoed christians that WEAK where you have to grasp at the concept of a thug god who will send you back to hell in sptie of his promises, in order to keep your own morals in check under fear of lost good graces?
Sad.
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Post by art on Jul 2, 2008 9:26:22 GMT -5
I am going to go to a Baptist church tonight. I believe they teach eternal sanctification. Does this mean according to tohers that every single Baptist is hell bound?
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