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Post by dale on May 7, 2008 21:25:57 GMT -5
Here is a new thing we can start. I openly invite the people here to talk to me directly and this go around it should be a topic you can all unite on rather than arguing with each other and getting sidetracked as in the once saved/always saved vs lost salvation angle.
Why should I believe the Bible? This is supposedly the rule and guide of your faith, so to speak, but why should I believe it? Valid question.
Hopefully we can do a little better here than one exchange I had with a Christian where I emphasized I did not believe in the Bible and he insisted The Bible was the word of God. "How do you know the Bible is the word of God?" I asked. His brilliant response was "It says so in The Bible." Hopefully you can do a little better than that.
Why shoudl I believe the Bible is the word of God? I'm asking, people. You explain what I'm missing here. I am sure the lurkers will find it interesting to hear from you all as well, so here's your chance.
On your mark, get set, go......let me hear why I should believe in the Bible and if you don't think you can convince me, then let me at least hear why all you crusaders of the cross believe it yourselves.
Blind me with the light of revelation.
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kenm
Full Member
Posts: 173
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Post by kenm on May 8, 2008 9:46:02 GMT -5
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Post by dale on May 8, 2008 15:17:53 GMT -5
My time is limited right now as I am also working on galley proofs, plus I use dial up which moves somewhat slowly (I also use it intentionally as it provides an excuse for the phone to be disconnnected and have an excuse that keeps people I really don't want to hear from from calling me. I can always tell them "I was online and that's why you didn't reach me.") I will get to this link as I can, as I did with the other one the other christian suggested on the other thread.
In the meantime, anyone else have a blinding ray of knowledge for me like what happened with Paul? I figured the Eternal Sanctificatiion vs Lost Salvation thread just about ran its course and time to start something new.
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Post by thunder on May 30, 2008 21:14:06 GMT -5
Why believe the Bible? My advice is DON'T! It is just a myth!
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Post by dale on May 31, 2008 6:56:58 GMT -5
We have pretty much established I do not believe in The Bible, so you are preaching to the choir here, to use a bad play on words.
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Post by debonnaire on Jun 2, 2008 2:58:15 GMT -5
When someone gave me the Gospel [after a time of repentance] , i was convinced that this Jesus could not be simply a man of great wisdom. Not so much because of the miracles He did but because of what he said. At that time I did not believed especially the bible in its whole was the word of God, maybe yes maybe not, I did not knew, although I thought the Truth if truth existed could only be in that direction. It is only when I believed in Jesus and the veil over my heart was no more , that it became obvious to me that the rest of the bible was also inspired by God. In fact , there are things written in it [even in the old testament] that the Holy Spirit spoke to me in my heart , and I was amazed to see these sentences written in the bible word for word. I suppose that more than one believer could testify having received such words from the Holy Spirit of God, confirming the written words.
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Post by art on Jun 8, 2008 10:21:31 GMT -5
I love how you people go in circles when asked to explain why someone should believe in the good book as you put it. There is no concrete evidence Jesus Christ ever even existed at all. All evidence I have ever seen fofered is nothing but speculation or wishful thinking on the part of a deluded people. Are these arguments the best you can do?
Now what can I look forward to myself on this or some other threads? The routine remarks about how you are saved and I am going to hell? Again, I heard it before. Do better than that if you want to make a case. Making a case just isn't important to you though, as I have heard some of you and seen you.
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Post by HDmatt on Jun 10, 2008 7:33:32 GMT -5
It really doesn't matter what people believe, but rather what is true. I could believe the earth is flat, but that wouldn't change truth. All truth by definition is narrow. If that wasn't true, math would fall apart. (Ask my algebra teacher, she was very narrow minded with my tests ha) You can't say there are no absolutes because that statement would delete itself. Rape is wrong in all places at all times correct? Of course, and if this is an absolute there can be more than one absolute. Many accuse people of circular reasoning by quoting from the Bible that it is true. That doesn't really hold up as the best evidence to find out its validity would be to look inside. How do you find out if waffle house sells vanilla coke? Go there. Not go to IHOP or read the tv guide to disprove the Bible. That would prove nothing. Consider these five points~ Number 1: the Bible is the best selling book in the world or sells 150 million a year. No other book touches that number. If people read shakespeare and grisham, and it has one shred of truth wouldnt it be worth checking out? Number 2 2pet 1:21 God claims to be the author. Thus saith the Lord comes up over 3600 times.......... Now those first two are interesting but they aren't hard evidence, these next ones are hammers! Number 3 Its true historicity ~ No one has yet to find a single historical mistake in the Book, & if man wrote it, there would be! I highly recommend (New evidence that demands a verdict by Josh McDowell) Number 4 Archaoelogical evidence seals it up. Each new find proves it true. Almost 3000 finds have proved people and places in the Word true! The pool at shalom where the angel stirred the waters & Jesus healed the man has been dug up, golgotha is there or goliath from gath, where his head was buried by david thus fulfilling the first prophecy in gen 3 Gol + Gath or golgotha. The enemy of God's people his head was bruised by Jesus when He was crucified above goliaths head! Number 5 Prophecy! If a book predicts something that doesn't come true, its good garbage material. 25% of the Word is prophecy! Statistically man can't 100% accurately predict the future, so who is the only One who can? You guessed it! Malachi 5:2 says Messiah will be born in Bethlehem, not in Seattle or Paris, but bethlehem, proved true in Luke 2:4-7 Zechariah11:12-13 Jesus is betrayed for thirty pieces of silver Matthew26:15 Psalms22 This Messiah will be pierced in His hands and feet Matthew 27:35 This one is so cool being 800 years old before Matthew was written! It isn't just a single book but 66 books with internal consistency and a common theme, Jesus! You owe it to yourself to donate your eyeballs to it! ;D
Just a nugget:Abraham exclaimed Jehovah Jireh! or my provider when he was about to sacrifice his son, and then proceeded to pay tithes to melchizedek the king of salem or king of peace, (heb7) and the location became Jireh + Salem or Jerusalem, Israel wouldn't exist if the Bible wasn't true~
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Post by dale on Jun 10, 2008 8:09:44 GMT -5
The skull of Goliath is buried there? Has anyone thought to excavate for it, as finding a giant skull looking like the monster from Alien would be something that would make me listen a little harder. Where did you get this ine at as it sounds like an urban legend to me.
I had heard an entirely different explanation and Galgatha was called that because the hill and crucifiction area had the shape of a skull to it.
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Post by HDmatt on Jun 10, 2008 20:56:12 GMT -5
Oh you are definitely correct that it has the shape of a skull, you can check it out online if you would like to google it. Nonetheless both can be true, being a skull burial ground and having the holes in the hill like a skull, one doesn't disannul the other. I refer to some of the ancients writing about David and the text in the Bible is 1 Sam 17:54. As far as excavations I am not sure if digging is allowed on that site, and I do not have limitless information, skulls such as that may already have discoveries but that would be cool to see a monster skull, Jesse would have to carry it on campus in a wheelbarrow ha. Just an incite into this, many people have random knowledge and hearsay of the Bible, but that is the mistake many make. Familiarity can breed apathy and even contempt. Look, I have my own personal Bible that I am familiar with as far as being user friendly, I know where things are and can turn there quickly, but I don't lower it because I am used to it, I open it in the recognition that it is a massive spiritual message, and to read it like the newspaper will profit me little. What is the heart message I am to receive? Not necessarily where is Goliaths head, but what message am I to receive from it. This is where most make their exit. To ignore Iran will not make them disappear, and to ignore the Bible in its personal exhortions and warnings will not make the pages to fall out. As far as reliability, no other Book can touch it, as far as application, no words I can say can probably lift it to its proper place, for God's Word has changed my life, most people quote the verse in revelation they overcame by the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony, but leave out they loved not their lives to the death. Where most part ways is here. Selfishness doesn't mix with salvation. So to wrap whats been said up. Most don't adhere because of its life changing demands. My neighbor does not love his fellow man nor God, for he is irritated whenever I bring up God. It is his lifestyle of rebellion. He just got arrested for crack and beating up his wife. See the circle of selfishness? I am not getting into if his shoes were too tight as a child, but choices he has made against the (Bible!) has put him in this situation. I think I read a survey one time that said 1 out of 1,051 who read their Bible daily as a couple get a divorce. In case you didn't know ha thats not the national average. Strange how times are now. Please don't discard the truth flippantly. Capiche~
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Post by art on Jun 11, 2008 15:16:31 GMT -5
The Bible isn't even well-written literature as a novel, let alone word of any god.
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Post by Jeffrey Olver on Jun 12, 2008 9:43:46 GMT -5
Hah! Art, be serious. Even secular scholars admit that it is one of the most well written pieces of literature EVER. And again, secualr scholars, when comparing it to other religious works... the Koran and the Book of Mormon, with just literary excellence alone, it far surpasses them all!
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Post by dale on Jun 12, 2008 9:49:35 GMT -5
I tend to agree with the Christians on this one, for if it wasn't for the Bible we would have missed out on some great films. Ben Hur, The Ten Commandments, Left Behind, Moses The Lawgiver (with a great Ennio Morricone score), and The Omen.
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Post by art on Aug 3, 2008 6:19:17 GMT -5
I am going to bump up this thread as the ranters here have forgotten about trying to prove the arguments they make because aside from the superficial, they are unprovable. You all do not get off so easily.
The Bible is myth. Street preacher boys and ranters make no good case for it.
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Post by HDmatt on Aug 5, 2008 8:13:48 GMT -5
To reverse the thread..........why shouldn't you believe the Bible?
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Post by brobreaud on Aug 5, 2008 23:56:43 GMT -5
How did we get the Bible? Who wrote it and how was it copied? Has it influenced the world? Depending on your starting point, you will see either great good or great evil.
Many people have devoted their lives to the study of Scripture, from the general manuscript authenticity to minute textual criticism.
The Bible wasn't written to answer all man's questions. Nothing can be proven with absolute certainty; but if you are intellectually honest, reasonable evidence would be considered from many different outlooks: history, law, prophecy, archaeology, geology, science, economics, art, music, medicine...
Part of being created in God's image, besides having life, emotion, desiring fellowship, and being creative, mankind has the faculty of reason...and oh, what discovery can take place when he uses it!
Brobreaud
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Post by John McGlone on Aug 7, 2008 19:53:38 GMT -5
The Bible has a multitude of historical, supernatural, scientific, archeological proofs! But God will not violate the freewill of any person in order to make them believe and obey the gospel.
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Post by kureji on Aug 15, 2008 20:52:55 GMT -5
I believe in the bible the same way I believe in "The Cat in the Hat" both read by alot of people, both written by man. Both have weird magical events. Great Fiction.
In short, no one can convince you to believe in the bible the only person who can do that is yourself. Asking others for the reason why you should is kind of silly in my opinion, after all the reason why one person believes in the bible will most likely be different than someone else who believes in the bible. Find your own reason to believe in it or not, after all don't the Christians insist that it'll come to you in good time or something like that? At least the nonpushy ones say that.
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Post by art on Aug 16, 2008 17:33:28 GMT -5
The Bible doesn't serve hardly as well as Mother Goose, the greatest of fairy tale books.
The Big, Bad Wolf died for your sins.
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rc
Junior Member
May God be glorified 1 Cor 10:31
Posts: 63
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Post by rc on Aug 23, 2008 17:30:39 GMT -5
I would ask the atheist how does he or she know their memory is reliable? How does he or she know their five senses are reliable? As a Christian I believe faith is the foundation for reason. Like Augustine said "I believe in order to understand."
These questions I have asked our first principles of Philosophy that one must presuppose for anything to be intelligible. However, I am curious given the atheism world-life-view in a general form, how does one justify presupposing the reliability of ones memory or five senses? Also, how does one account for the reliability?
Given the Christian worldview the Bible says humans were created in the image of God (Gen 1:26) by the reliable triune God, thus Christians can justify the reliability of their five senses and memory. Furthermore, Christians can account for the reliability of their memory and five senses because God is the one that created us.
Common Objections
One common objection is this does not answer a thing because there is supposable no coherent definition of the Christian God(I disagree, my definition would be found in the Baptist confession of faith of 1689 or the Westminster Confession of Faith)
Christians are appealing to authority. Absolutely if God testifies of himself (in special revelation specifically the Bible) or says something, we would have to believe it on his authority because there is no higher.
Our five senses and memory are not always reliable, so your belief of being made in God's image and justifying the reliability of your memory is false. I would respond by saying we were made in God's image, but once the fall of Adam and Eve occurred sin tainted our cognitive faculties (Total Depravity or Radical Corruption) causing our memories and five senses to be no longer reliable all the time.
The last time I checked my memory and five senses were reliable. This is circular reasoning (or begs the question) to say I know my memory and five senses are reliable because I used them and they were reliable. One must have an objective foundation, which given the Christian worldview is the Bible that accounts and justifies for the reliability of one's memory and five senses. However, both the Christian and Atheist does circular reasoning concerning the relability of one's memory and five senses, but the Christian worldview gives justification for believing it and can account for it. The Atheist given his worldview and his or her belief in a random, chance universe cannot.
What about other religions? I am not arguing for any other religion because I do not believe any other religion is true. All other religions fall short either they are incoherent, self-contradictory or do not provide the necessary preconditions of intelligability (Isaiah 43:10, John 4:16, Acts 4:12, Phil 2:10-11).
If our senses and memory weren't reliable, we all would have died at a very young age." This also begs the question one cannot assume the very thing we are debating about unless he or she has a foundation that gives justification for the relability of one's memory and five senses that does not change like the Bible, not science.
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Post by kureji on Aug 26, 2008 13:37:51 GMT -5
I love it, you justify your senses by what you read/heard from a book. See thats the glorious thing about your silly argument about senses, you can't prove that your senses are worth anything. In your senses one needs faith to believe in your senses, your faith is in your imaginary sky wizard. My faith rests in myself, for as a being the only thing I can possibly prove to myself is genuine is myself. But if you prefer to rest your existence on one book, feel free. I won't stop ya.
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Post by Jeffrey Olver on Aug 26, 2008 15:40:57 GMT -5
So you're a moral relativist, would you say?
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rc
Junior Member
May God be glorified 1 Cor 10:31
Posts: 63
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Post by rc on Aug 26, 2008 18:04:03 GMT -5
Kureji, you are begging the question concerning your senses and memory. You have no justification and you cannot account for the reliability of your senses and memory. However, given my worldview God has created us so we can trust our senses and memory. Also, I should point out you are being arbitrary.
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Post by kureji on Aug 27, 2008 0:12:10 GMT -5
So you're a moral relativist, would you say? yep Kureji, you are begging the question concerning your senses and memory. silly rc of course I'm begging the question, you can't prove your senses without relying on your senses. Which in itself is begging the question. Didn't you mention that yourself in your original rant? If you're telling me that you're allowed to believe in your five senses because of something you read from the bible or heard from the bible I find that quite amusing because you need your five senses to be able to comprehend this from the bible... and after all if your five senses aren't trustable the information you read is no longer trustable even if it did just tell you that you can trust your five senses. You have no justification and you cannot account for the reliability of your senses and memory. I have faith in myself, you have faith in a book. I don't know how you magically got affirmed of your senses to be able to affirm this book, that then affirmed your senses... does that make sense? Sounds like a which came first the chicken or the egg thing. Did the book affirm the senses first or did the senses affirm the book? Can't really happen at the same time. However, given my worldview God has created us so we can trust our senses and memory. Good for you. Given my view I can trust my senses as well. If you don't trust my senses that's your own issue. Also, I should point out you are being arbitrary. If you say so.
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Post by art on Aug 27, 2008 8:15:43 GMT -5
They all copy Kirk Cameron and his stupid tv show.....They try to debate the bible with those who think the bible is nonsense, so they are fighting with no ammo to begin with..
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Post by kureji on Aug 27, 2008 11:21:19 GMT -5
Is that what it is? I just figured they took an intro to philosophy class in college before dropping out to street preach and ran with it.
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rc
Junior Member
May God be glorified 1 Cor 10:31
Posts: 63
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Post by rc on Aug 28, 2008 19:43:15 GMT -5
Kureji, the Bible is the precondition of intelligibility. In other words the proof of the Christian world-view is that if it were not true you could not prove anything (including the reliability of your senses and memory).
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Post by dale on Aug 28, 2008 19:46:17 GMT -5
In other words, the Bible is the word of God because it says it is in the Bible? ??
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rc
Junior Member
May God be glorified 1 Cor 10:31
Posts: 63
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Post by rc on Aug 28, 2008 19:46:55 GMT -5
"silly rc of course I'm begging the question, you can't prove your senses without relying on your senses." True but I have justification and can account for the reliability of both my senses and memory, however you cannot.
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rc
Junior Member
May God be glorified 1 Cor 10:31
Posts: 63
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Post by rc on Aug 28, 2008 19:53:53 GMT -5
"I have faith in myself" given your world-view how can you have faith in yourself if you do not know you exist. Because you cannot justify the relaibility of your five senses and memory you are left to skepticism. Rene Decartes said I doubt therefore, I am but given your worldview how can you doubt if your five senses and memory do not have a foundation that gives justification for the belief they are reliable?
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