rc
Junior Member
May God be glorified 1 Cor 10:31
Posts: 63
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Post by rc on Aug 28, 2008 19:55:21 GMT -5
Dale, I think I answered your question in my article.
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Post by joemccowan on Aug 28, 2008 20:33:53 GMT -5
The Bible is a Revelation from God. Like all revelations, it must be revealed to you. Since it is a revelation from God, He must reveal it to you. If you are not open to that revelation, He will not force it upon you. You are free to perish in willful ignorance if you so choose. The historic, scientific and archaeological proofs don't mean much if you don't accept the supernatural revelations included along with them. No need arguing about it, God settles the score in the end and no-one has a valid excuse for denying the revelation available to them.
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Post by kureji on Aug 28, 2008 20:38:58 GMT -5
wow.. three posts in a row? bit wasteful... anyway... Kureji, the Bible is the precondition of intelligibility. In other words the proof of the Christian world-view is that if it were not true you could not prove anything (including the reliability of your senses and memory). Sure if you use the bible as a crutch you can't prove anything if you take it away. Fortunately I don't blindly follow a book. True but I have justification and can account for the reliability of both my senses and memory, however you cannot. No you still had to rely on your senses to get anything from the bible. You can't just magically get confirmation from the bible that your five senses are good. You have to hear it from someone reading it, you have to see it by reading it yourself. Maybe if you're skilled you can feel it if you're fluent in brail, but unfortunately without confirming within yourself that your senses are reliable you can't do anything, even accept that the bible also confirms your senses are reliable. given your world-view how can you have faith in yourself if you do not know you exist. Because you cannot justify the relaibility of your five senses and memory you are left to skepticism. Rene Decartes said I doubt therefore, I am but given your worldview how can you doubt if your five senses and memory do not have a foundation that gives justification for the belief they are reliable? How can I have faith in myself? Quite easily. I have no reason to doubt myself. I don't sit around wondering if I exist. I mean seriously, what kind of person worries about that? What would that accomplish? Nothing. I accepted that my eyes and ears and hands and tongue and nose are not lying to me at a very young age like everyone else. My foundation is myself, If I'm wrong and my senses are lying to me, guess what. It doesn't mean anything because if my senses are wrong then I have no clue what is really going on and I'd have no idea how to. Quite frankly, there would be no point even worrying about that at that point. Unless of course you are going to suggest that reading my bible and saying my prayers will give me a magical 6th jesus sense which allows me to see special things that others can't. In which case I might suggest you might not be able to trust in your own senses and might want to see a psychotrist, (not a psychologist you'd need some medication my friend.)
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Post by kureji on Aug 28, 2008 20:41:23 GMT -5
yes I know I'm double posting after scolding rc but this one was posted while I was typing and doesn't match with the previous post I made... The Bible is a Revelation from God. Like all revelations, it must be revealed to you. Since it is a revelation from God, He must reveal it to you. If you are not open to that revelation, He will not force it upon you. You are free to perish in willful ignorance if you so choose. The historic, scientific and archaeological proofs don't mean much if you don't accept the supernatural revelations included along with them. No need arguing about it, God settles the score in the end and no-one has a valid excuse for denying the revelation available to them. I just want to say I like this post, at least it's to the point and doesn't try to say I can't trust my senses because I'm an atheist. Very simple message, "Read it or don't, you'll burn if you don't but.. you know.. your choice." I like that. Kudos joe, kudos.
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rc
Junior Member
May God be glorified 1 Cor 10:31
Posts: 63
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Post by rc on Aug 29, 2008 0:19:29 GMT -5
You must understand I am not trying to insult you.
"No you still had to rely on your senses to get anything from the bible. You can't just magically get confirmation from the bible that your five senses are good." You still do not understand my argument let me try and clarify because the Bible (God's Word) is true we can use our five senses and memory and trust they are reliable. People trust their senses (including you) and their memory because as the Bible delares in their heart of hearts they do know about God but they "have suppressed the truth in unrighteouness"(Rom 1:17-20)
However, I do have a question because I am curious you say you trust in your memory and senses on the bases of your own authority Why?
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Post by kureji on Aug 29, 2008 8:37:54 GMT -5
Why do I trust in my own memories and senses? I thought I answered that but I'll try again. It's very simple, I trust in my senses because even if I was wrong I'd have no way to prove what was right anymore anyway. So why sit around worrying about something you can't fix? Let's assume I can't trust my senses, that would mean that everything I saw, heard, felt, smelt, or tasted was a lie. In turn, I wouldn't be able to listen to any of those things, so I'd have to ignore my five senses to get the truth. So how would I find the truth? The answer is you can't. So instead of being worried about if my senses are true or not, I'll have faith in myself until the day that my senses start contradicting themselves. For instance, if my nose smells chocolate, and my eyes see roses, and someone is telling me that I'm looking at a french poodle. I might want to consider questioning my senses. If I start seeing people or hearing people that no one else can, I might start questioning my senses. Though, nothing like that has happened so I have no reason to doubt myself. I feel quite secure in myself. People trust their senses (including you) and their memory because as the Bible delares in their heart of hearts they do know about God but they "have suppressed the truth in unrighteouness"(Rom 1:17-20) lets go ahead and look at the whole passage you quoted, in case the other heathens in this forum are curious about what you mean. I used the king james version, I hope you don't mind. It's the supported version from Jesse anyway. 17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. 18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Basically what this says is that believers will live by faith, those who are ungodly and unrighteous will be punished by God. Also it ends that the proof that God exists even though he is invisible to us is that the world exists therefore God must also exist. I don't see the part where we hold the truth suppressed in our hearts by unrighteousness but I'll humor you and assume that I just can't see it in there. When someone wants you to believe something over someone else, you'll often see as one tactic that they will say something negative about the person they are discrediting. For instance, the heathens say they don't believe in God but deep down they really do but they're bad people so they won't or can't admit it. Not only does this try to make the other party look bad, it also tries to instill a message that they are right. Though if you look closely you'll notice that it's just an attack on the character and not a valid argument at all. First of all, can you prove that the person knows that God exists deep in their heart? Not really, you'd need faith to believe in God for yourself, and then faith in the bible to assume that what it said about the heathen is true. Can you prove the person is unrighteous? Well they don't believe in the same beliefs as you, so they must be unrighteous right? Wrong. Beliefs are just that, beliefs, no matter how much you want to argue, they are just glorified opinions and opinions are neither right nor wrong. Without being able to prove that God exists, all you can rest upon to trust in your bible is faith. I'd rather not put my faith in a book that can't prove it's main selling point that there is a God. Now I know what you might be thinking, "I can't prove that God exists... but you can't prove he doesn't exist either so he might!" This also is an invalid argument, you can't prove that something doesn't exist, period. It's just impossible. You can only prove that something does in fact exist. Good example, I can prove that Dogs exist by showing you one, I can prove that instead of letters magically appearing in your mailbox that they are delivered by mailmen. I can not prove that unicorns exist, because as silly as unicorns sound, there might be one hiding somewhere really well that no one can find it. Hence why you also just can't say God doesn't exist. Maybe I'm a pessimist, but I don't believe in things until I confirm their existence. In case you're curious I classify myself as an Agnostic leaning towards Atheist. In other words, I don't think God exists, but I don't completely close the book on it either. This turned out to be quite a long post. lol
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Post by art on Aug 29, 2008 9:54:57 GMT -5
I will tell you what the Bible is. It is garbage. A Christian comic book that only the insane could believe, but then look around you.
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Post by mattmisk on Aug 29, 2008 13:00:41 GMT -5
Philosophy when superficially studied, excites doubt, when thoroughly explored, it dispels it. -Francis Bacon
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Post by Jeffrey Olver on Aug 29, 2008 13:57:46 GMT -5
So true!
I recently found out about a guy who was a person that was very looked up to in his sphere of influence. A godly man, and an example of manhood.
Well, because of his "studying" of universalism and writings on how there is no Hell, or God won't send people to hell, he is now an atheist.
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Post by art on Aug 29, 2008 19:08:33 GMT -5
Good for him. Someone came to his senses.
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rc
Junior Member
May God be glorified 1 Cor 10:31
Posts: 63
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Post by rc on Aug 29, 2008 23:06:12 GMT -5
Kureji, thank you for answering. I my last post I was not trying to attack anyone or name call.
This was the verse I was refering you to "18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold {or suppress } the truth in unrighteousness". You said "First of all, can you prove that the person knows that God exists deep in their heart? Not really, you'd need faith to believe in God for yourself, and then faith in the bible to assume that what it said about the heathen is true. Can you prove the person is unrighteous? Well they don't believe in the same beliefs as you, so they must be unrighteous right? Wrong. Beliefs are just that, beliefs, no matter how much you want to argue, they are just glorified opinions and opinions are neither right nor wrong. " the reason I say people know in their heart of hearts there is a God is because they hold to beliefs that can only be accounted for by the Christian worldview. For example, Atheists at least most I talk to believe everything is physical (material) everything must tested by our five senses to believe in it. However, the laws of logic are immaterial and these laws can be accounted for given the Christian worldview, logic derives from the nature and character of God. Atheists believe in the immaterial laws of logic, yet they cannot account for them nor can they justify their belief in them given their atheistic, material worldview.
I hope this helps some.
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rc
Junior Member
May God be glorified 1 Cor 10:31
Posts: 63
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Post by rc on Aug 29, 2008 23:08:49 GMT -5
That is sad to hear Jeffery.
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Post by kureji on Aug 30, 2008 8:28:18 GMT -5
Kureji, thank you for answering. I my last post I was not trying to attack anyone or name call. yeah I understand you aren't trying to attack me. the reason I say people know in their heart of hearts there is a God is because they hold to beliefs that can only be accounted for by the Christian worldview. For example, Atheists at least most I talk to believe everything is physical (material) everything must tested by our five senses to believe in it. However, the laws of logic are immaterial and these laws can be accounted for given the Christian worldview, logic derives from the nature and character of God. Atheists believe in the immaterial laws of logic, yet they cannot account for them nor can they justify their belief in them given their atheistic, material worldview. See basically, you're assuming that because I don't believe in God I should have no basis to trust i anything. As you said before, your faith in your senses comes from your faith in God and in the bible. On the other hand, I'm saying I also have faith, it's just not in the same beliefs as you. You might consider my beliefs weaker or wrong because they are not the same as yours but I still have faith none the less. I think we can both agree that the only true way you can "confirm your senses" is to have faith in them for one reason or another. In short, I have faith in myself for I feel it's the only thing I can accurately trust. In fact, I think everyone should have faith in themselves for if they didn't, how could they trust anything, even God or the bible? Now I know that other Christians will argue that not having God or Jesus in my foundation of beliefs makes my arguments weaker, but I disagree. After all, no one can with one hundred percent certainty say that their religion is true. They can tell you about how much they believe in it, but they can't actually prove it to you. After all, it revolves around faith. So just because I can't pull out a book and read you passages doesn't make me wrong, or unable to trust anything. In my opinion, it keeps me more open minded and willing to look for what might be the truth. Perhaps you can even say I suffer from one of the seven deadly sins, Pride, which is of course the worst one. I have pride in myself, I have confidence in my ability to judge, and most important to this conversation I have confidence in my five senses that they will not lead me wrong. I know this is a hard concept for most Christians to understand because after all, if someone asks them something that they aren't really sure about, they can just fall back and say, "Well God says this," or "God works in mysterious ways." I'd much rather rely on myself to give you an answer that will rely more on science than what the bible says. Now I know a lot of you are scoffing at my science, but all I have to say is that science has shown me a lot more proof of being accurate than the bible has.
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Post by art on Aug 30, 2008 8:37:03 GMT -5
I am my own god!
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Post by kureji on Aug 30, 2008 8:45:49 GMT -5
Art also apparently suffers from pride, but of a different magnitude.
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Post by art on Aug 30, 2008 10:36:09 GMT -5
I an the center of my own world. I do not believe there is an afterlife which does stink, but this MEANS we must live now and while we can. I am free from the shackles of religion and slavery to a god who is not there, If there is an afterlife I will be stunned, but I do not believe it is the man made and man created myth as spoken of by the Christians in their fairy tale guidebook. Cgristianity is a myth and like all myths us a futile and sorry attempt to explain the unknown. It fails miserably except for the foolish and the weakminded. The god of these people ont his baord, in the churches and in the heads of the street ranters is a tyrannical monster designed to make them behave , like the boogeyman. Their god is a lie and their god does nothing, for he does not exist. You pray to a fabrication, fools. You long for a myth. You shout at the wind. Freedom is breaking away from the lie and belief with yourself .
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