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Post by rebecca on May 22, 2008 3:28:21 GMT -5
Watchman Nee on the Indwelling Life of Christ
"God's normal for a Christian can be summarized as follows: I no longer live! Now it is Christ who lives His life in me (Gal. 2:20)."
"Because of our limited comprehension of the state of our fallen nature, we do not have true appreciation of how helpless the natural man really is. Thus, we still have some expectations in ourselves. And as a result of this faulty line of thought, we think that we can please God."
"The blood can wash away my sins, but it cannot wash away my 'old man' (Rom. 6:6). For this we are in need of the Cross, that the old man may be crucified. Though the blood deals with sins, it is the Cross that deals with the sinner."
"At the beginning of the Christian life, we are concerned with our doing and not with our being; we are distressed more by what we have done than by what we are. We think that if only we could rectify certain things we would be good Christians; therefore, we set out to change our actions. We try to please the Lord, but we find that something within us does not want to please Him. And the more we try to rectify matters externally, the more we realize how deep-seated the problem really is."
Since we came into this world by birth, we must go out by death. To do away with our sinfulness, we must do away with our life. But how do we die? It is not by trying to kill ourselves. Rather, we die by recognizing that God has already dealt with us in Christ. This is summed up in the apostle's statement, 'As many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death' (Rom. 6:3)."
"The Cross terminates the first creation, and out of death there is brought in a new creation in Christ: the Second Man."
"God's way of deliverance is altogether different from man's way. Man's way is to try to suppress sin by seeking to overcome it; God's way is to remove the sinner. Many Christians mourn over their weakness, thinking that if only they were stronger all would be well. But God's means of delivering us from sin is not by making us stronger and stronger; rather, it is by making us weaker and weaker. God sets us free from the dominion of sin, not by strengthening our old man, but by crucifying him; not by helping him to do anything, but by entirely removing him from the scene of action."
"It is not intellectual knowledge at all, but an opening of the eyes of the heart - to see what we have in Christ."
"In dealing with Christ, God has dealt with the Christian; in dealing with the Head, He has dealt with all the members. It is altogether wrong for us to think that we can experience anything pertaining to spiritual life merely in ourselves, apart from Him."
"Grace means that God has done something for me; law means that I must do something for God."
"The law makes our weakness manifest. Had it not been for the law, we would never have known how weak we are. The law is what exposes our true nature."
"The law was not given with the expectation that we would keep it; it was given in the full knowledge that we would break it. And when we have broken it so completely as to be convinced of our utter need, then the law has served its full purpose. It has been our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, that in us He Himself may fulfill it (Gal. 3:24)."
"What does it mean to be delivered from the law? It means that I am henceforth no longer going to try to do anything to please Go; for if I do, then I immediately place myself under the law. Therefore, I have alternative; I must allow Christ to fulfill the law in me. And finally, I see that this alone is what is pleasing to God (Matt. 5:17). This is deliverance from the law!"
"It is only after having reached the point of utter despair in ourselves - so that we cease even to try - that we put our trust in the Lord to manifest His resurrection life in us. The sooner we give up trying, the better. For it is only by ceasing in ourselves that we give place to the Holy Spirit. And then, we will see a power stronger than ourselves carrying us through."
"As long as we are trying to do anything, He can do nothing. It is because of our trying that we fail."
"We all need to come to the point where we say, "Lord, I am unable to do anything for You, but I trust You to do everything in me."
"One faulty line of thinking that is prevalent among Christians is this: we know that justification is ours through the Lord Jesus and that it requires no work on our part, but we think sanctification is dependent on our own efforts. We know we can receive forgiveness only by our entire reliance on the Lord, yet we believe we can obtain deliverance by doing something ourselves. After salvation, the old habit of "doing" reasserts itself, and we begin our old self-efforts again. However, the Bible declares that, in both justification and sanctification, He is the doer. 'It is God who works in you' (Phil. 2:13)."
"Living in the Spirit means that I trust the Holy Spirit to do in me what I cannot do myself. It is not a case of trying, but of trusting; not a case of struggling, but of resting in Him."
"We think of the Christian life as a "changed life", but it is not. What God offers us is an "exchanged life", a "substituted life", and Christ is our substitute within."
"Many believers have a wrong understanding of sanctification. It is commonly conceived that every item of our lives should be holy. But that is not holiness; rather, it is the fruit of holiness. Holiness is Christ."
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forevidence
New Member
Our God is a Consuming Fire!
Posts: 13
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Post by forevidence on May 22, 2008 10:18:32 GMT -5
Dont know if I fully agree with this... I dont believe Christ is a substitute for personal holiness. But Abiding in a relationship with Christ produces actual holiness in us.
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Post by Josh Parsley on May 22, 2008 10:48:16 GMT -5
I think what he is saying is that you don't go around fixing every part of your life, you receive Christ and then it will be "fixed." Notice he said "it is the fruit of holiness." So, he is saying that "every item of our lives" being holy is the fruit of holiness (Christ) not the cause of it.
At least that's how I interpret what he is saying. Sometimes Nee and those in his movement say things differently.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on May 22, 2008 11:14:59 GMT -5
It sounds to me like he is saying that every item of our life will be affected by an internal holiness. The items affected is not the holiness, it is the fruit of holiness. True holiness is Christ reigning in the heart.
In other words, holiness is internal, it belongs to the heart. And the Bible says that when the tree is good, the fruit will be good. The heart determines the action. When the heart is good, the action will be good.
So it is not that we have to change this and change that, change the outside, change the external, change our actions, and then we will be holy. But that it is our heart and our heart alone that needs to change, and once our heart is changed, then we will be holy. Once our heart is changed, every aspect of our external life will be different.
True holiness belongs to the heart. That is why Charles Finney taught that sanctification is not by works, it is by faith. Finney said that by faith we received Christ to rule and reign over our hearts, by faith He establishes His throne upon our heart. Holiness is Christ reigning in the heart.
And once our heart is sanctified by faith, our life will be sanctified. This is what overcomes the world, our faith. Faith purifies the heart the Bible says.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on May 22, 2008 11:57:34 GMT -5
I would say that the law was given because we were not living rightly, not because we could not live rightly. We need Christ, not because we were disabled cripples who could not keep an impossible law. We need Christ because we were deliberate criminals who violated a good and reasonable law.
In other words, the law was given to reveal to us the sins were already committing, because we were violating our own conscience. So the law does not originate right and wrong, the law declares right and wrong.
And it was not given so that we could not obey, it was given because we were not obeying. And certainly, God wanted us to obey the law, and God still wants us to obey the law. God is not lawless. God wants to righteously govern us. God is trying to promote our well-being, so He gives us laws to protect us. God wants us to obey His law.
If we ask, "Why did God give us the law" if the answer is "so that we would need Christ", and then we ask "why do we need Christ" and the answer is "because we have broken the law" this is circular reasoning. It says we need the law so that we would need Christ, and we need Christ because we have broken the law. So the reason for the law is the atonement and the reason for the atonement is the law. This is nonsense. The law was given to promote the well-being of all. Men violated the law and God must enforce the Law because He is loving. Therefore the atonement is necessary, to vindicate and enforce the law. We need the atonement because we didn't obey God when we could have and should have.
God's law is not impossible. If God gave us an impossible law, just so that we would violate it, then God is trying to make us sinners just so that we would see our need for Christ. This is absurd. God was not trying to make us sinners so that we would need Christ. God gave us a law to show us that we already made ourselves sinners and therefore we need Christ. And it was given to show us our need of Christ. Not because we couldn't obey God, but because we didn't obey God.
Basically:
- God's law does not originate right and wrong, it declares right and wrong - God wanted to declare right and wrong to show us we were already living wrong - God wanted to show us that we were living wrong so that we would see our need of Christ, and know what to repent of - We need Christ because we were deliberate criminals who violated a good and reasonable law, not because we were disabled cripples who could not keep an impossible law
Also:
- God's law is not impossible, it is able to be kept - God laws are designed to protect us, to promote well-being - God wants men to obey His laws, He is not lawless or an Antinomian
It is absurd to say God does not want us to obey His law, or that we do not have to obey God's law. A God of love without a law of love is a contradiction. A God of love, who does not require that men obey His law of love, is just nonsensical. God is love, therefore He has the law of love. God is love, therefore He requires that all men be loving.
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Post by rebecca on May 22, 2008 13:41:45 GMT -5
If man through the ages could have kept the law as you are saying why wouldn't God have then just required us to believe in Him and keep the law as a means of justification. We could just have been atoned for by the blood, keep the law and have no need to be crucified with Christ. Instead of being crucified with Christ we just keep the law. No need to die to yourself or resist the devil. No need to renew your mind or think on good things as the bible says but just recieve your atonement and keep the law. No need to drink milk when you are a babe in Christ but just go straight to the meat.
I guess what I am trying to say here is that I believe there is a progression in our walk with the Lord.
Maybe I'm just misunderstanding you...
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Post by Jesse Morrell on May 22, 2008 13:51:53 GMT -5
The Bible does say that to obey is better than sacrifice (1 Sam. 15:22), so God would have preferred a sinless world over a sinful world that needed an atonement. God would prefer that we obey Him than to disobey Him and need an atonement.
But the fact is that we all have sinned. And though we are capable of obeying the law, obeying the law is not capable of atoning for our disobedience. Obedience can never atone for past disobedience. So we need the blood of Jesus Christ to atone for our sins, not because we couldn't obey God, but because we didn't obey God.
If God's law was impossible, sin is not our fault, and we would not need an atonement.
An atonement is only needed if God's law is reasonable and good.
If God's law is impossible, we are helpless victims. And helpless victims need no atonement.
But if we are free will beings, who have the ability of obeying God, then we do need an atonement because we have made ourselves criminals in God's government.
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Here is more on the topic:
The ground of forgiveness (justification) is entirely grace (Rom. 3:24; Eph 2:8-9; Tit. 3:7). To earn forgiveness is a contradiction in terms.
Though God’s law is not impossible (Deut. 30:11; Job 34:23; Isa. 5:4; Matt. 11:30; 1 Cor. 10:13; 1 Jn. 5:3), and we are naturally able to obey God (Gen. 4:6-7; Deut. 30:11,19; Josh. 24:15; Isa. 1:16-20; Isa. 55:6-7; Hos. 10:12; Jer. 21:8; Eze. 18:30-32; Jer. 18:11; Jer. 26:13; Acts 2:40; Acts 17:30; Rom. 6:17; 2 Cor. 7:1; 2 Tim. 2:21; Jas. 4:7-10; 1 Pet. 1:22; Rev. 22:17), no sinner (Matt. 9:12; Mk. 2:17; Lk. 5:31) can be justified by obeying the law, since present obedience cannot atone for past disobedience (Acts 13:39; Rom. 3:20; 3:28; Gal. 2:16). We are capable of obeying, but our obedience is incapable of atoning for our sins.
No matter how much you obey, all you have done is your duty (Lk. 17:10). Therefore obedience cannot be supererogation, so present obedience cannot atone for past disobedience. Forgiveness is always gracious and can never be merited or deserved. Retributive justice is the execution of what is deserved. Forgiveness is withholding what is deserved. Forgiveness is entirely grounded in the loving kindness of God, granted only because God is gracious and merciful and not because of anything we have done.
Obedience cannot atone for sins (Acts 13:39; Rom. 3:20; 3:28; Gal. 2:16). Only blood shed can atone for sin (Lev. 17:11; Heb. 9:22). Both in the Old Testament (Lev. 17:11), and in the New Testament (Heb. 9:22), blood shed and not obedience atoned for sin. But the blood of animals cannot take away sins (Heb. 10:4), only the precious blood of Jesus Christ can (Heb. 9:13-14).
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Post by rebecca on May 22, 2008 13:55:14 GMT -5
The Bible does say that to obey is better than sacrifice (1 Sam. 15:22), so God would have preferred a sinless world over a sinful world that needed an atonement. God would prefer that we obey Him than to disobey Him and need an atonement. But the fact is that we all have sinned. And though we are capable of obeying the law, obeying the law is not capable of atoning for our disobedience. Obedience can never atone for past disobedience. So we need the blood of Jesus Christ to atone for our sins, not because we couldn't obey God, but because we didn't obey God. If God's law was impossible, sin is not our fault, and we would not need an atonement. An atonement is only needed if God's law is reasonable and good. If God's law is impossible, we are helpless victims. And helpless victims need no atonement. But if we are free will beings, who have the ability of obeying God, then we do need an atonement because we have made ourselves criminals in God's government. ------------------------------------ Here is more on the topic: The ground of forgiveness (justification) is entirely grace (Rom. 3:24; Eph 2:8-9; Tit. 3:7). To earn forgiveness is a contradiction in terms. Though God’s law is not impossible (Deut. 30:11; Job 34:23; Isa. 5:4; Matt. 11:30; 1 Cor. 10:13; 1 Jn. 5:3), and we are naturally able to obey God (Gen. 4:6-7; Deut. 30:11,19; Josh. 24:15; Isa. 1:16-20; Isa. 55:6-7; Hos. 10:12; Jer. 21:8; Eze. 18:30-32; Jer. 18:11; Jer. 26:13; Acts 2:40; Acts 17:30; Rom. 6:17; 2 Cor. 7:1; 2 Tim. 2:21; Jas. 4:7-10; 1 Pet. 1:22; Rev. 22:17), no sinner (Matt. 9:12; Mk. 2:17; Lk. 5:31) can be justified by obeying the law, since present obedience cannot atone for past disobedience (Acts 13:39; Rom. 3:20; 3:28; Gal. 2:16). We are capable of obeying, but our obedience is incapable of atoning for our sins. No matter how much you obey, all you have done is your duty (Lk. 17:10). Therefore obedience cannot be supererogation, so present obedience cannot atone for past disobedience. Forgiveness is always gracious and can never be merited or deserved. Retributive justice is the execution of what is deserved. Forgiveness is withholding what is deserved. Forgiveness is entirely grounded in the loving kindness of God, granted only because God is gracious and merciful and not because of anything we have done. Obedience cannot atone for sins (Acts 13:39; Rom. 3:20; 3:28; Gal. 2:16). Only blood shed can atone for sin (Lev. 17:11; Heb. 9:22). Both in the Old Testament (Lev. 17:11), and in the New Testament (Heb. 9:22), blood shed and not obedience atoned for sin. But the blood of animals cannot take away sins (Heb. 10:4), only the precious blood of Jesus Christ can (Heb. 9:13-14). Oh, I agree we need an atonement but what I am trying to say is if we can keep the law as you say than why not just the atonement and no need to crucify ourselves?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on May 22, 2008 13:56:37 GMT -5
I think I see your point. If we can simply obey God, where is the progression in our walk?
I would say that we always able to obey the light that we have. But as our light increases, so must our obedience increase. That is Christian progression. That is why we need the indwelling Holy Spirit, to lead us into all truth. Since we cannot obey what we do not know. But we are always able to obey what we do know, so we never have an excuse for disobeying God. Certainly inability to obey light would be the greatest justified excuse for disobedience!
If we cannot obey God:
We cannot be crucified with Christ because we cannot pick up our cross, we cannot obey God
We cannot be followers of Christ because we cannot choose to obey God
We cannot die to ourselves because we cannot choose to obey God
We cannot resit the devil because we cannot obey God
We cannot renew our minds because we cannot obey God
We cannot think upon good things because we cannot obey God
We cannot drink milk as a babe because we cannot obey God
If we cannot obey God, we cannot do ANYTHING that the Bible tells us to do.
Picking up your cross, resisting the devil, thinking on good things, etc are all saying "don't sin". We must choose not to be selfish (pick up cross), we must choose not to obey temptation (resist the devil), we must choose to think on good things (not sin in our hearts and minds) etc.
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Post by rebecca on May 22, 2008 13:58:38 GMT -5
I think I see your point. If we can simply obey God, where is the progression in our walk? I would say that we always able to obey the light that we have. But as our light increases, so must our obedience increase. That is Christian progression. That is why we need the indwelling Holy Spirit, to lead us into all truth. Since we cannot obey what we do not know. But we are always able to obey what we do know, so we never have an excuse for disobeying God. Certainly inability to obey light would be the greatest justified excuse for disobedience! If we cannot obey God: We cannot be crucified with Christ because we cannot pick up our cross, we cannot obey God We cannot be followers of Christ because we cannot choose to obey God We cannot die to ourselves because we cannot choose to obey God We cannot resit the devil because we cannot obey God We cannot renew our minds because we cannot obey God We cannot think upon good things because we cannot obey God We cannot drink milk as a babe because we cannot obey God If we cannot obey God, we cannot do ANYTHING that the Bible tells us to do. O.K. I agree there. We have always had the ability to turn to God, amen...
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Post by Jesse Morrell on May 22, 2008 14:04:54 GMT -5
If we are capable of loving God and loving our neighbor, than we are capable of obeying the law, since love is the fulfillment of the law.
God would not command us to do something, at the threat of eternal hell, if we were not capable of doing it. Man's moral obligation never exceeds man's moral ability. What a man ought to do, he can do.
That is why we are commanded in the law to love "with all thy". Whatever your ability is, you must love God with all of it. The commandments are directions to you as to how you are to use your abilities. God's law never exceeds our ability, because Gods law is that we love "with all thy". The law requires that you love to the best of your ability, with all of your ability, no more and no less.
That is why we are never tempted beyond our ability - 1 Cor. 10:13, because we are always capable of not sinning, we are always capable of obeying, we are always capable of love.
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Post by rebecca on May 22, 2008 15:27:54 GMT -5
I think what he is saying is that you don't go around fixing every part of your life, you receive Christ and then it will be "fixed." Notice he said "it is the fruit of holiness." So, he is saying that "every item of our lives" being holy is the fruit of holiness (Christ) not the cause of it. Yea, that's how I interpret it.
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Post by yadanni on May 22, 2008 18:26:22 GMT -5
Hi Jesse in light of scriptures below because of our free will choice to sin, did we weaken our ability to obey God? Eg we feed the flesh so much that it craves for that which God hates and therefore at times because of weakness due to our own bad choices we give in. We are still fully responsible and guilty but weakened and in need of Gods grace to quicken us to obey?
Eg after conversion i still sinned and gave into temptation. years later i have full victory over those sins i was once enslaved to.
Do those scriptures below promise that God will do His part to strengthen are ability to (Obey) choose what is Holy and pleasing to Him? And if so ,doesnt that mean without the new covenant we could not obey the much higher standard of morality given by Jesus without the baptism in the Holyspirit?
NAS Ezekiel 36:27 "And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
NAS Jeremiah 32:39 and I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear Me always, for their own good, and for the good of their children after them.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on May 23, 2008 13:20:09 GMT -5
Yes through habitual practice of sinning, obedience became extremely hard and difficult. Our flesh becomes a monster after continual self-indulgence. As a former drug addict, I know from first hand experience.
Eph. 2:2-3 says that we can choose to walk after the flesh, and the course of this world, to such an extent that we become "by nature children of wrath". Sinning becomes like a "second nature" to us, so that it is almost "normal" for us to sin, because we have become so used to it, it becomes such a strong habit. (But sin is truly abnormal to our design, and sin is truly against our nature according to Romans 1).
And Jeremiah even says that we can become so "accustomed" to doing evil that changing would be equivalent to a leopard changing his spots or an Ethiopian changing his skin. But this particular verse is referencing a reprobate, not necessarily the average sinner. It is talking about someone who has persisted in rebellion after a great deal of light (Israel particularly in this verse).
So we need the help of the Holy Spirit if we are ever going to have victory over sin. We need the Holy Spirit to teach us, convict us, comfort us, strengthen us, etc. We enter into a synergistic relationship, so that the Holy Spirit helps us make the right free will choices.
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Post by Jeffrey Olver on May 23, 2008 13:48:15 GMT -5
I recently finished Asa Mahan's System of Mental PhilosophyIt's a great book on why and how the mind works. One point Asa touched on was this very thing. He used gluttony as a good example. The glutton eats to excess to fulfill his insatiable appetite. But to the end where the very thing he loves becomes a curse. The more he eats, the more he is compelled to eat to attain 'satisfaction' but never attains it because he is always wanting more, more, more. The same principle applies with lust, drugs, alcohol, violence, lying. I was listening to Winkey Pratney last night and in one of the sermons he described how God, out of His mercy and forebearance will shorten expectancy of a man's life the more and more rebellious he becomes. This is true in the evidence of addiction and reprobation: the more and more and more a person becomes ensnared in lust, drugs, alcohol and violence etc. etc., the more dangerous, unhealthy, risky it becomes to his life. All the sinner is doing is causing himself, others and God pain, pain, pain. So, God in His mercy must shorten his life. I hope I said that in a way that makes sense.
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