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Post by john316yes on May 24, 2008 0:34:24 GMT -5
I'm a Christian and I still sin, what about you, do you, a christian, still sin, or are you perfect without a single fault? Keep in my mind, I am by no means excusing obedience to Christ, but am looking at this question from a realistic view.The Bible says that Christians are no longer mastered by sin.(Romans 6:14) We are are no longer slaves to sin, but we used to be slaves to sin (Romans 6 : 16) We have been set free from sin and have become slaves to rightousness. (Romans 6:18) Moreover, sin is no loneger has dominnion over us.That being said, we Christians still sin from time to time, maybe not as severe or not as much as before we were Christians, but nevertheless, we stiill have our faults, we are not perfect. Furthermore, the closer you get to Christ the more things you see in your life that you need to change( he gives you the power to do that). Im always seeing this in my life that I need to change- trusting Christ, Loving Christ, ect. The sad thing is that this does not happen over night, but happens over a life time. Can you recognise a person who has been born again and person who has not? Im sure you can, but sometimes when people can not recognise someone who has been born again is when you twist things like, [glow=red,2,300]perfection in this life[/glow] Before someone is a Christian they are sorrowful of their way of life and want to change, then they come to Christ to be saved; their motivation is to want to be clean and to do the right thing. Jesus once said blessed are the poor in Spirit for theirs is the Kingdom of God. God looks for someone with a broken heart over sin; one who is humble, willing to confess their sin before a Holy God, willing to want to change and not to offend anymore. For example, look at David's reaction when Nathan the prophet told him how he defied God from his sin, "I have sinned against the Lord,"(2 Samuel 12) and, "Have mercy on me o God according to your great compassion blot out my transgressions. Wash all my inquity and cleanse me from my sin. For I know my trangressions and sin is always before me. Against you only have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight...."(Psalm 51) God looks for a person who is humble and is sorrowful over their sin, but not only that, but someone will accept God as their Savior and believe that He is able to forgive them and take care of them, as it says, " Godly sorrow brings repantance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret,worldly sorrow leads to death"(2 Corinthians 7 10) For us who are Chriistian, we know we were once like the rest of the world- selfish, immoral, hateful, lustful and wicked; living only to please our sinful desires, thats what we were like, but now our lives are different. we are not lead by the Devil and by our sin anymore we are lead by the Spirit,; we are no longer slaves to sin. On the contrary, God has caused us to be born again and to live a new life of selflessness and love; for God and our brothers. That being said, I can not say to God I am perfect without sin. Although I can say, that is, as Judgment is concerened, I am blameless, Holy in his sight, without blemish and free from all accusation because I have made peace with God through Christs blood shed on the cross, therefore, I am declared not guilty, making me a legitamate son of God. (Colossions) I cant believe for one second that Jesse is perfect and without sin. I believe he sins just like the rest of us. We all make mistakes wether it be big or small, it does not matter. Laziness is a sin and I bet we are always lazy at sometime or another. Gluttony is a sin and I bet were all a little glutoness one time or another, considereing we live in America. These may seem like little sins, but their sins. Sin changes all the time it could be this or it could be that. Lets not say we cant sin or we dont sin, thats a lie.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on May 24, 2008 13:30:15 GMT -5
In order to become a Christian, a person must forsake all sin in their heart. And since the heart determines the action, the tree determines the fruit, when the tree is good the fruit will be good. Therefore, when a person forsakes all sin in their heart, their life will be free from all sin, because they will choose not to sin. They will only choose to sin if they embrace sin in their heart. A Christian will only backslide in their actions if they first backslide in their heart.
Though Christians sometimes sin, they never have to sin. God has given us the grace to overcome sin. God has given us the gift of free will and the revelation of the Holy Spirit. And since we have the gift of free will and the gift of revelation, which gives us the necessary power to overcome sin, we never have to disobey God, we can always obey God. And since sin is disobedience, and we don't have to ever disobey, we therefore never have to sin.
Sin should not be the mark or characteristic of the Christian life. Sin, if it occurs at all, should be the rare exception and not the general rule. Holiness and not hypocrisy should mark the Christian life. Nothing is less Christian then sinning every day in word, thought, and deed. That devil doesn't do any worst than that.
So while Christians might sin, because they have a free will, they do not have to sin, because they have a free will. Christians are capable of sinning and capable of not sinning. With the help of the devil we can be sinful in this life, or with the help of Jesus Christ we can be sinless in this life.
And if a Christian sins, they must repent and seek forgiveness, or else they will perish on the day of Judgment.
Any Christian who is in deliberate sin is a backslider. We must never be in the place of deliberately sinning. If we find ourselves in deliberate sin, we must repent immediately or else we continue to store up the wrath of God.
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Post by john316yes on May 24, 2008 15:51:57 GMT -5
So your saying we dont have to sin? I would say: who wants to sin? not me, but I do sin. Im no longer dominated by sin and it is not my master; it doesnt direct all of my decisions. I know have Gods love in my heart and the gift of the Holy Spirit which leads me to truth and brings things to my attention that is sin or is not a good idea; through God's word. If a Christian sins they will not be in danger of hell fire, though God may dicipline them as sons to get them to return to Him.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on May 24, 2008 15:55:43 GMT -5
Sin is a choice. You will not sin unless you choose to. And you have a free will, so you don' t have to choose to sin. Therefore, you do not have to sin.
Sin is disobedience, sin is rebellion. Disobedience or rebellion is never involuntary or accidental, it is always intentional, deliberate, and voluntary.
Anyone who chooses to rebel against God is in danger of hell fire.
You cannot be the friend of God and the enemy of God at the same time. You cannot be reconciled to God while living in rebellion against God at the same time.
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Post by colton_latta on May 24, 2008 16:00:28 GMT -5
Jesse, What tree determines what fruit it will bear?
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Post by colton_latta on May 24, 2008 16:07:23 GMT -5
And if a Christian sins, they must repent and seek forgiveness, or else they will perish on the day of Judgment. Any Christian who is in deliberate sin is a backslider. We must never be in the place of deliberately sinning. If we find ourselves in deliberate sin, we must repent immediately or else we continue to store up the wrath of God. The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, "How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly." (John 10:24) Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. (John 10:25) "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. (John 10:26) "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; (John 10:27) and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. (John 10:28) "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. (John 10:29) It says in this verse that Christ's sheep will NEVER perish. Why because His Father who has given them to Him is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. So is our "free will" greater than the Father who is greater than all? I am no way trying to give anyone a license to sin who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity, (2 Timothy 1:9)
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Post by Jesse Morrell on May 24, 2008 16:08:51 GMT -5
The type of tree determines the type of fruit. An apple tree gives apples, not oranges.
And Jesus said that the heart determines the actions. If we have an evil intention, we will have evil actions. But if we have a good intention, we will have good actions.
"For a good tree brings forth not corrupt fruit; neither doeth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit." Lk. 6:43
"A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil..." Lk. 6:45
And man determines what type of tree he will be, because man determines his own intention (heart):
"Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit." Matt. 12:33
If we did not make ourselves evil, we could not be accountable for being evil. If it was not our own fault for producing bad fruit, we could not be responsible for it.
But men are responsible for their fruit and men are accountable for being evil, because it is their own fault, it is their own choice.
In summary:
1. A man determines his intentions (heart) 2. A man's intentions determines his actions (fruit) 3. Evil intentions (tree) bring forth evil actions (fruit) 4. Good intentions (tree) bring forth good actions (fruit) 5. Men are accountable for their intentions and their actions because these are within the realm of their own control.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on May 24, 2008 16:12:57 GMT -5
Yes Christ's sheep will never perish. But who is a sheep?
"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; (John 10:27)
So if a Christian stops following Christ, they are no longer in God's sheep fold.
And therefore they no longer have the protection of the Shepherd. They are in great danger.
Those who are following Christ are not sinning, and those who are sinning are not following Christ. Christ will never lead you into sin. So if you are sinning, it means you are not following Christ. And if you are not following Christ, you are not His sheep. And if you are not His sheep, you do not have the protection of the Shepherd.
A sinning "Saint" is in danger of hell just as a sinning "sinner" is. The only difference between a "sinning saint" and a "sinning sinner" is that the "sinning Saint" has more knowledge and is also a hypocrite and therefore will have worse condemnation. It is better to be a sinner than to be a "Saint" who sins.
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Post by john316yes on May 24, 2008 19:57:38 GMT -5
Jesse, so you never sin? Are you perfect? When you sin your always in danger of hell fire? So Jesse, how many times a year do you think your in danger of hell fire?
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Post by John McGlone on May 25, 2008 9:32:00 GMT -5
Work out your salvation with fear and trembling! Stop sinning lest something worse happen to you! Go and sin no more! Those who love me obey me! You are righteous is you do righteousness, if you do not you are of your father the devil! God delights in the death of His Saints, not His sinners! Wow! Except you repent you will all likewise perish! Is the servant greater than the Master? He commands you, stop testing God and get right today.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on May 25, 2008 11:11:40 GMT -5
john316,
No I do not practice or live in sin. I do not sin every day in word, thought, or deed. I have sinned since being a Christian, but it is a very rare occurrence. Generally I obey God and resist temptation. And I am planning on never disobeying God again. I plan on being sinless, or sin free, from now and forever though the grace of God. I have no plans on sinning again.
It is easy to obey God when you love Him. So I don't go around being worried that I'm going to hell, because Jesus has saved me from sinning. Instead I focus on obeying God, on loving Him and loving my neighbor. Obedient Christians have no reason to fear going to hell. Only disobedient "Christians" are to fear the wrath of God.
But what sins are you committing? Which sins can't you stop doing? Which sins is Jesus powerless to save you from? And what is holding you back from stopping your sinning? Wouldn't it be better to simply love God and love your fellow man? Isn't sinlessness better than sinfulness? Isn't being sin free for God better than being in bondage to the devil? Does God want you to be sinless or sinful?
But be sure of this, if you are deliberately sinning (all disobedience is deliberate), you are in danger of hell. If you die in open rebellion against God, God will be forced to punished you. He must maintain His just government, He will not allow sinners into Heaven to disturb and corrupt it. You must stop sinning in this life or you will be punished in the next life.
If anyone dies in sin, including myself, God cannot allow us into Heaven. God will be forced to send us to hell, or else He would fail to be loving and just. Anyone who forsakes the narrow road, and is on the broad road, is heading towards destruction unless they repent.
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Post by john316yes on May 26, 2008 12:24:52 GMT -5
Your logic is confusing. For instance, you say you plan on being sinless, or sin free now and forever, what does that mean? Are you saying that your going to sin in the future because your not perfect, but plan not to, or are you saying that you will strive with all your heart not too and actually be succesful not sinning? No Christian lives in a pattern of sin, but Christians are tempted and will mess up from time to time- all their lives. The difference is that we do not live a sinful life style because we are new creation, we cant, its not possible for us to do that because we are not of this world any longer; the chains of slavery have been broken, " Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in Him, and he cannot sin because he has been born of God." (I JOhn 3 7) Have you been born again, have you been made a new creation? Have former things past away and all things have become new? Were you circumcised by Christ by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, being buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with through faith in the working of God?(John 316. Collossions 211, 2 Corinthians 516) If you were born again you can not go on living a sinful life style with out being convicted by God's word or through God's Spirit; our conscience has been renewed. On the other hand, if you continue to believe the way you do it will not work because if it is possible for you not to sin or to live sin free then you prove that you never been born again by sinning,"Whoever abides in him does not sin." (1John 3:6)You condemn yourself because if you admit you sin occasionally, even once a year, then that proves you have never really been born again. According to your thinking Christians have the potential to posses the the power of never sinning in this world, and that contradicts scripture.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on May 26, 2008 12:51:11 GMT -5
Because God created our nature, we have a free will.
Because we have a free will, neither sinner or Saint has to sin. (Sin is not necessary, sin is an abuse of liberty). Nobody ever has to sin.
But because we have a free will, both sinner and Saint are capable of sinning.
The gift of free will (the grace of creation) makes us capable of sinning or capable of not sinning. It makes us capable of being sinful or capable of being sinless. That is our choice. Our own choice determines our moral character.
I personally am planning on never sinning again. I plan on using the grace of God (the gift of free will) to obey God when I am tempted. God always provides a way of escape. He never lets us be tempted above our ability. So I plan, by the grace of God, to never sin again.
I could backslide and go to hell. I have a free will. But I don't want to backslide and go to hell. I want to live free from sin, being forgiven by the grace of God through Jesus Christ, so that I can go to Heaven and be with God forever.
It is not impossible for a sinner to repent, and it is not impossible for a Christian to sin. It is possible for a sinner to repent, and it is possible for a Christian to sin. Because of free will, good and evil are not impossible, both of them are possible.
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Post by john316yes on May 26, 2008 13:05:28 GMT -5
Your logic is confusing because I think you concentrate too much on free will.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on May 26, 2008 13:09:24 GMT -5
This is from "Are Men Born Sinners" by Overstreet, p. 150-151: In I John 3:6 the verb form menon is a present participle which emphasizes continuing action. It means is abiding or is remaining. The verb form hamartanei is the present active. It can denote either continuous or simple action. It means sins or is sinning. Next, the verb form hamartanon is used. It is a present participle which denotes continuous action. It means is sinning. The last two verb forms in I John 3:6 are heoraken and egnoken. They are both perfect active. The perfect denotes completed action in the past with results that continue into the present. So that heoraken means seen and continued to see and egnoken means known and continued to know. I John 3:6, then, has the following meaning: "Whosoever is remaining in him sins not; whosoever is sinning has not seen him and continued to see him, neither known him and continued to know him." So the fact that a Christian may commit sin does not mean that he never really knew God. What it does mean is that by committing sin, he is not continuing to abide in Christ, and by committing sin, he does not continue to see and know Christ, whom he once saw and knew. You cannot sin against God and remain in him at the same time. You cannot sin against God and continue to see and know him at the same time. In I John 3:9 the verb form gegennemenos is a perfect passive participle which emphasizes completed action in the past with results that continue into the present. It means has been born and continues to be born. The verb forms poiei, menei, and dunatai are all present active which denotes continuous or simple action in the present. The meaning of each one, respectively, is: do or is doing, remain or is remaining, and can or is able. The verb form hamartanein is a present infinitive which emphasizes continuous action. It means to continue to sin or to go on sinning. The verb form gegennetai is the perfect passive. It denotes completed action in the past with results that continue into the present. It means has been born and continues to be born. I John 3:9, then has the following meaning: "Whosoever has been born of God and continues to be born of God does not do sin; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot continue to sin, because he has been born of God and continues to be born of God." This verse does not teach that it is impossible for the Christian to sin. What it does teach is that it is impossible to stand begotten of God and go on sinning. The born-again experience and the committing of sin are self-excluding. One cannot exist where the other exists. If you have the seed of God in you and if you stand begotten of God, you cannot commit sin. If you commit sin, you cannot stand begotten of God." - A. T. Overstreet You can read the rest of his book here: www.pinpointevangelism.com/libraryoftheologycom/writings/originalsin/Are_Men_Born_Sinners_ATOverstreet.pdfWhoever abides in Christ does not sin. But you could stop abiding in Christ. Christians can backslide like David and Saul, or like Peter and Judas. If a Christian sins, that doesn't mean they were never saved, it simply means that they are backsliden. King David was truly saved and so was Peter. But they had a free will, so they could still sin. They backslide. Backsliders can be restored and forgiven, if they repent of their sin. David and Peter were restored because they repented. Christians are capable of never sinning. And Christians are capable of backsliding. That's the free will choice, to sin or not to sin. When a person sins, it proves either: 1. They were never saved 2. They were saved but are now backsliden Even those who were once genuinely saved can choose to forsake the Lord and commit sin. Both sinners and Saints have a free will, so both sinners and Saints are capable of sinning and capable of not sinning.
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Post by Josh Parsley on May 27, 2008 9:19:48 GMT -5
Your logic is confusing because I think you concentrate too much on free will. John, No, it isn't confusing. Just put some time into thinking about what he says. I don't agree with everything Jesse says but it's really not confusing. Regardless if you agree with him or not, it's really not too hard to understand... Here it is in a nutshell: If you sin, you need to repent- no matter who you are.
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kenm
Full Member
Posts: 173
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Post by kenm on May 28, 2008 8:08:00 GMT -5
Amen Josh It is very simple, every time we sin we have a choice to commit or not commit. Not that we will never commit sin but if you do, you chose to. I think some people reject because it puts the blame on the person for committing sin and it takes away the excuse, oh we are just human. It should break our heart when we sin because it breaks God's, but He is just to forgive if we repent. There is no confusion in that. Jesus paid the price to pay for our sins, but man has to take the responsibility when it comes to choosing to sin. No one has ever put a gun to my head and forced me to sin. There was always a choice involved and sadly I have made some wrong choices but I know that God has forgiven me and the fact that He will forgive me again does not give me the right to go out and sin. It is a daily battle to not sin and if and when you do it is a choice made by the individual and it should make us feel awful.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on May 28, 2008 8:23:37 GMT -5
AMEN!
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Post by tonyholland on Jun 2, 2008 19:32:25 GMT -5
This argument seems to happen a lot, but I really think that the incorrect debate occurs time after time.
The real issue is the definition of what sin is. I know that Jesse and I differ on this, therfore we could never have a reasonable debate about whether we can stop sinning or not. There are things that I feel that are sin that Jesse may see as temptation.
If I agreed with Jesse on what sin is, than we would agree completley that it is possible to stop sinning. If he agreed with me, than I am sure he would belive that we will sin from time to time.
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Post by prespilot68 on Jun 3, 2008 12:56:03 GMT -5
Tony
What is the mark of a Christian life? If you were to even go to a sinner and ask them what makes a Christian different from the rest of the world how would they reply? My point here is that even sinners recognize that Christians DON'T SIN!
Furthermore, how does one define a hypocrite? Again, ask any common sinner and they will even tell you that a hypocrite is one that says they are without sin, but yet sins. If we take yours and john316yes definition of salvation you essentially come up with the biblical definition of a hypocrite.
The bigger question is how does God define a hypocrite? The bible tells us that no man can serve two masters, God will not tolerate a "double-minded" man.
I would submit that the biggest hurdle in your "inability" to stop sinning is not your "flesh" but rather your thinking (theology).
1Pe 1:13-16 Wherefore girding up the loins of your mind, be sober and set your hope perfectly on the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; (14) as children of obedience, not fashioning yourselves according to your former lusts in the time of your ignorance: (15) but like as he who called you is holy, be ye yourselves also holy in all manner of living; (16) because it is written, Ye shall be holy; for I am holy.
Please recognize that its your mind that's the problem, not your DNA! When Peter says be holy in ALL manner of living (in every aspect of our lives) this denies your position that one must sin. I take this verse at face value - ALL ASPECTS OF OUR LIVES!
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Post by tonyholland on Jun 3, 2008 15:46:11 GMT -5
pres---I think you put quite a few words in my mouth with your post.
My only point is that Jesse and I see "what sin is" differently.
I hope that I am not putting words in Jesse's mouth here, but I'll try to give a couple of examples. Please correct me if this isn't a fair representation Jesse.
If a attractive girl walks by and I have the slightest impure thought, I feel that I have sinned, even if I do not dwell on it or act upon it.
If I feel at all angry with someone regardless of how long, I feel that I have sinned.
If I do something that I feel that is not completley pleasing to God (this could be as simple as mowing the grass when I think I should be reading the Word) I feel that I have sinned
My point is not these specific incidents, but that I (and many that agree with our theology) have a much broader interpetation of what sin is. This includes things that may pop into our mind that we have little control over, not just simple choices. I understand and respect that Jesse and others have a different interpetation.
I don't intend to debate whether I am right or wrong, just pointing out that if that dispute was somehow settled, we would probably agree on most other things. If I felt that all sin was a choice, I would agree that all sin is willfull disobedience and would basicly be thumbing our nose at the sacrifice made for us on the Cross.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jun 3, 2008 15:55:01 GMT -5
Yes I have found that those who say Christians sin every day usually do not define sin as deliberate rebellion, or as a choice.
And I do believe that many confuse temptation with sin. In my theology, temptation is involuntary, but sin is always voluntary. Temptation is of the flesh, sin is of the will.
I am glad Tony that if you were to define sin as a choice, that you would agree that it seems reasonable to say that we can stop sinning, since all sin would be a deliberate choice.
And if I defined sin as a substance of the body or the soul, or as an involuntary thought, feeling, or impulse, then certainly I would say that it is impossible to stop sinning. That would be equivalent to changing the color of your skin. The color of your skin is not voluntary, so certainly you cannot avoid it or change it!
But I would also argue that if sin were involuntary, or unavoidable, then we certainly cannot be responsible or accountable for it, and we certainly wouldn't deserve eternal hell for it. Just like a person doesn't deserve prison for the color of their skin, if sin were involuntary, we couldn't really be criminals in the government of God. It would be injustice to punishment a man for his sin color, likewise, it would be injustice to punish a man for sin that he couldn't help but to commit, or for a sin that was not his choice but was a substance of his being.
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Post by prespilot68 on Jun 3, 2008 19:27:59 GMT -5
Tony
My apologies if I seemed to put words into your mouth. That was not my intent.
I am curious though. When the bible says that Jesus was tempted in "every way" as we are tempted, then how do you reconcile this verse with your definition of sin/temptation?
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Post by tonyholland on Jun 3, 2008 20:21:05 GMT -5
This is a very good thought, and one that I struggle to get my hands around also. My opinion on this is that we are willingly sinful people before surrendering our lives to Christ. We know what we do is wrong, yet we do it anyway. When we come to a understanding of what God did for us through his Son, Repent, and decide to try to live a life pleasing to him we are in a different ballpark. A Christian should make every attempt not to sin. If we do, we should repent of it as quickly as possible and ask God for the strength not to commit that sin again. Even the sins that just "happen" (impure thought about about a passing young lady) becomes easier and easier to put behind me. While I struggled with that on a daily basis a few years ago, it now rarely happens. I'm not "choosing" not to have that thought, I become more and more empowered by God to combat those thoughts even though they are not voluntary.
Sorry, went off on a tangit. I guess my answer would be that we deserve hell not just because we choose to sin, but because we are so short of the standard that we are asked to live up by our Creator. It seems to my our only hope is the forgiveness that we recieve through Christ once we choose to recieve that gift and choose to change the way we live. Our sins from that point are forgiven. In case anyone is wondering, I'm not a calvinist in that I don't believe that God picks and chooses who accepts His gift. We have to make a choice for that.
No worries Bro, it just seemed to be a lot more than what I was actually thinking at the time ;D
No, I do believe that there is a distinction between sin and temptation. I didn't mean to imply that it wasn't. I am tempted on a daily basis to do things that are wrong that I am able to flatly reject through God's strength.
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