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Post by abraham on May 26, 2008 15:17:42 GMT -5
For all those who consider it unreasonable for God to be sovereign over all things...
God's ways are reasonable in His wisdom. God can reveal His reasonable ways to us. It is very reasonable for God to do whatsoever he pleases in such a way that he does not sin nor tempt us to sin. (though men may not see it that way with their own reasoning.) What we should desire to know is, "what does the bible say?" It doesn't matter if someone doesn't consider it reasonable. The atheists (haters of God who want God to no longer exist) do not consider anything about God reasonable. Does that mean they are right, simply because they can't figure God out with their own reasoning? God forbid, let God be true and every man a liar. Let God be perfect in wisdom and the wisdom of this world utter foolishness.
Some people say that it is unreasonable for God to tell us to fear Him with trembling because he has power to cast us into hell, and at the same time for God to require that we love Him dearly and affectionately.
Their reasoning is folly. God's word is the final authority on what is reasonable, and not our own reasoning. God requires that we fear Him and love Him. It is very reasonable in God's wisdom. And we know it is the wisdom of God, because He declares and commands it in His word.
I have one question for all those who consider it unreasonable for God to be sovereign over all things and justly find fault in us for our sin.
Did God purpose wicked men to crucify His son or was it an event that could have happened differently if man willed it to be otherwise?
Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: Act 4:26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. Act 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, Act 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
God could have restrained or kept them from sinning against Him.
Joh 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin. Gen 20:6 And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her. Gen 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive. Pro 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will. Pro 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps. Rev 17:17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfill his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled. Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor? Isa 29:16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding? Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
* God is sovereign over the entire universe: Ps 103:19; Rom 8:28; Eph 1:11 * God is sovereign over all of nature: Ps 135:6-7; Mt 5:45; 6:25-30 * God is sovereign over angels & Satan: Ps 103:20-21; Job 1:12 * God is sovereign over nations: Ps 47:7-9; Dan 2:20-21; 4:34-35 * God is sovereign over human beings: 1 Sam 2:6-7; Gal 1:15-16 * God is sovereign over animals: Ps 104:21-30; 1 Ki 17:4-6 * God is sovereign over "accidents": Pr 16:33; Jon 1:7; Mt 10:29 * God is sovereign over free acts of men: Ex 3:21; 12:25-36; Ez 7:27 * God is sovereign over sinful acts of men and Satan: 2 Sam 24:1; 1 Chr 21:1; Gen 45:5; 50:20
God bless you! Ask God to mercifully teach you His ways. -Abraham
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Post by debonnaire on May 27, 2008 6:19:20 GMT -5
Not only God is sovereign over all things, but everything comes from Him, as the bible teaches
except sin , as the bible teaches
but sinners have no free will, although they think they have.
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Post by Josh Parsley on May 27, 2008 9:27:32 GMT -5
Abraham,
Do you believe God causes every single sin that has ever been committed? Whether He does this actively or by not giving men another choice but to sin?
If you don't believe that God causes all sin then you have to believe in some type of free-will. The reason anyone doesn't believe in meticulous sovereignty isn't because they think God is not powerful enough or even that its "unreasonable" in and of itself, but they think that God is too good to cause all sin. And if God doesn't cause all sin either by secret willing or by giving no other choice the only other option is that man choose to sin contrary to God's desire. The heart of anyone who believes in free will isn't that the love man so much that he deserves a free will, but it's because they believe it's a mar to the character of God to say He forces all men at all times to sin. In other words, it stems from a high view of the love and goodness of God rather than a high view of man- contrary to what most think.
PS. No one denies (or should!) that God is sovereign over all things- they just interpret it differently.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on May 27, 2008 11:02:01 GMT -5
That is precisely right.
Which of these two exalts God and humbles man?
1. God causes all sin, man has no choice
2. God has given man free will so that man could love, but man has abused free will and chosen to sin
#2 Exalts God and humbles man #1 Slanders God and pities man
It exalts God to say that He is the source of all that is good. It slanders God to say that He causes everything.
It humbles man to say that he is the cause of his own sin. And it paints man as a victim to say that he cannot help but to sin, or that God's laws are impossible.
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Post by Kerrigan on May 27, 2008 11:05:31 GMT -5
That is precisely right. Which of these two exalts God and humbles man? 1. God causes all sin, man has no choice 2. God has given man free will so that man could love, but man has abused free will and chosen to sin #2 Exalts God and humbles man #1 Slanders God and pities man It exalts God to say that He is the source of all that is good. It slanders God to say that He causes everything. It humbles man to say that he is the cause of his own sin. And it paints man as a victim to say that he cannot help but to sin, or that God's laws are impossible. AMEN! That is the TRUTH! Praise our Sovereign God who has given each man Free Will as a gift!
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Post by logic on May 27, 2008 14:00:49 GMT -5
Just to make things clear, I will help abraham Juliot to describe what he means by the word "sovereignty".
abraham Juliot does not mean "sovereign" as being the ultimate authoriyt over all, but the ultimate domination over all & that HE cause of all things(makes every singal thing happen and creates all the thought of men into their heads).
He does not mean that all people are accountable to God, but all people are game pieces, pupets, pre-programed sentiant devices in which God plays His "solitar" game with Himself and by Himself.
Remeber, "it's all God and none of man"
I hope that helped, abraham Juliot, I just want people to understand you better.
Let me know if I can be of any more help.
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Post by abraham on Jun 6, 2008 12:36:36 GMT -5
Every man shall give an account to God for his deeds, thoughts, words , and intentions of the heart.
Proverbs 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?
Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.
Matthew 12:36-3736 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. 37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
Ecclesiastes 12:13-1413 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
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Post by abraham on Jun 6, 2008 12:40:50 GMT -5
Logic and Jesse,
Do you have an exposition for any the verses I posted at the intro.
Can you give an explanation for the verses in Acts or in Proverbs? How do they fit with an open theistic view?
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Post by mattmisk on Jun 7, 2008 19:03:34 GMT -5
I'm not Logic or Jesse, but I'll take a stab at the first group.
Yes, it could have happened differently if man had not sinned in the garden, or if all men in the world repented when Jesus came and preached I suppose it could have been different. We can only speculate what would have happened then, but that obviously didn't happen. God did not force any particular man to be wicked, but instead he used those who had already chosen to be wicked to carry out his will. He is certainly powerful and wise enough to orchestrate something like that. Any of the wicked men or killed Jesus could have stopped being wicked at any time.
Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Says nothing about God ordaining certain men to sin.
Act 4:26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. Act 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, Act 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
Says nothing about God ordaining men to sin. God ordained that Christ die but wicked men, but he did not say: "You, you, and you - you will be wicked and evil and will crucify my Son." Rather he used men who had already freely chosen to be evil. Look around in the world, there is no short supply of men like this.
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I have a a few questions for you Abraham, if you don't mind.
1. What is the difference between murder and manslaughter?
2. Why does God distinguish between murder and manslaughter in his Torah?
3. Why does God spare those under 20 years of age when the Israelites disobey God by not entering the promised land?
4. Will God hold you accountable on judgment day for not discovering the cure for cancer, aids, and the common cold? Why or why not?
5. If yes to the above, could you give an example of something you will not be accountable for on judgment day? Why would you not be held accountable for this?
Very interested in seeing how you respond to this, if you would oblige.
Matt
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Post by prespilot68 on Jun 10, 2008 19:16:02 GMT -5
Abraham
I would also like to add to what Matt had asked you. Based upon your theology, please answer the following questions to the best of your ability.
1. If God's character and nature are defined as being loving, then how does one then explain the dire contradiction you put forth of God being the author of sin and yet not be responsible for doing so?
2. Does might make right or does right make right?
3. Do you believe in the Law of Non-Contradiction?
4. Do you believe that God must abide by the same laws he requires mankind to live by or adhere to?
I realize you might think these questions are not related, but they are. After you answer I will put forth my reason for asking these 4 simple questions.
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Post by prespilot68 on Jun 10, 2008 20:56:51 GMT -5
God's ways are reasonable in His wisdom. God can reveal His reasonable ways to us. It is very reasonable for God to do whatsoever he pleases in such a way that he does not sin nor tempt us to sin. (though men may not see it that way with their own reasoning.) Abraham - I want to take what you said here and apply it to a real world situation. Granted we can talk all day long here in our theological circles and think everything fits in a nice tight little box. But let's see how you apply your theology with the real world. The following story is true. I even ask you to investigate what I am about to tell you to see if in fact what I am telling you is the truth. Last year in my hometown of Dunbar WV, the son of a longtime family doctor was convicted of one of the most horrific crimes in the history of the state of West Virginia. I remember about two years ago my mother calling me and explaining of the horrors Micheal Merrifield had committed against two year old Logan Goodall. Michael Merrifield had been living with the child's mother, who was a cocaine addict and over a period of time Merrifield had apparently begun to physically and sexually abuse this little boy. The horrors that this precious little boy endured are indeed painful and horrific - some of the most unimaginable and evil things this man did to that innocent little boy have at times brought me to the point of tears. Not even an animal should have died the way this little boy did. But I implore you to take a minute before going any further and read in fact happened to Logan Goodall - it is important you do so to fully understand the remainder of this post. Again I apologize to Jesse and others of how graphic this is, but I feel it is absolutely essential in making my point. Upon Logan's death his autopsy revealed that this little two year old boy had been sodomized so severely that his rectum and colon was hanging out of his body. His scrotum had been torn in two. A large amount of semen had been found in the little boys throat where he had been orally raped. But after all of this little Logan was thrown so violently against his apartment wall, that his liver was lacerated and he literally bled to death. His death was so violent and tragic that his ER caregivers broken down on the witness stand at Micheal Merrifields trial and wept openly and deeply over the condition they received this little boys body in. Abraham, here is why I have shared this story with you. First, I personally know the perpetrators father - he was our family physician for many years up until my teenage years. Further, my youngest brother went to high school with the murder . These are REAL people with real sin and real pain and suffering. So how does a Calvinist explain such evil and horror? Here is what one of your own scholars said regarding "Sovereignty" and explaining the absolute foreknowledge of God. Remember, this guy is in YOUR CAMP! Loraine Boettner was a well known Calvinist theologian and scholar back in 1950 and 1960's. Here is how he explains foreknowledge and foreordination in his paper "The Foreknowledge of God": Foreknowledge must not be confused with foreordination. Foreknowledge presupposes foreordination, but is not itself foreordination. The actions of free agents do not take place because they are foreseen, but they are foreseen because they are certain to take place. he goes on to explain: Since God's foreknowledge is complete, He knows the destiny of every person, not merely before the person has made his choice in this life, but from eternity. And since He knows their destiny before they are created, and then proceeds to create, it is plain that the saved and the lost alike fulfill His plan for them; for if He did not plan that any particular ones should be lost, He could at least refrain from creating them. We conclude, then, that the Christian doctrine of the Foreknowledge of God proves also His Predestination. Since these events are foreknown, they are fixed and settled things; and nothing can have fixed and settled them except the good pleasure of God,--- the great first cause,--- freely and unchangeably foreordaining whatever comes to passThis IS Calvinism! It is the very heart of your theology! Do you deny these comments? Essentially what Boettner is saying is that God is the one who foreordained the rape, the sodomy and the murder of a little two year old boy, in Dunbar WV. Yes, it was God who from "Eternity Past" who had ordained such atrocities. No, we can not blame Micheal Merrifield for he was simply fulfilling God's providence. You see Abraham these are real people - Logan Goodall who had real grandparents who loved him and are to this day experiencing deep pain and anguish over the fact they will never see their grandson ever again. That their last memory is of their grandson being raped and sodomized at the hands of a 32 year man. So tell me Abraham - if you were to meet these families (the victim or the murderer) and you had to explain to them that God is indeed a "loving" God, but that he had from eternity past "ordained" this atrocity. Do you really think after all they had been through they will think God is indeed truly "loving"? And if they by chance ask "how" or "why" could God do such a thing, would you simply reply that they are just too stupid or pathetically ignorant in their "human wisdom" to understand such a thing? Instead Abraham, you have made God the author of every murder, every rape and every Logan Goodall and every Michael Merrifield. You have brought such a unimaginable accusation against the character of God! In the end Abraham YOU and the rest of your Calvinist lot have put such a wedge between men and them understanding the REAL love of God. If God tells us in HIS WORD that he his LOVING, then don't you think that in his wisdom that he would like to make sure that we understand this from OUR perceptive. If God is simply "loving" or benevolent from His own perspective what good is that?? If God desires for us to return His love back to Him, don;t you think it would be crucial that we UNDERSTAND just how loving and kind He truly is?? If God is only loving to himself and we can not understand his definition of love, then how do we really know He is at all loving? If God is indeed the God put forth by you and other Calvinist - then maybe Hell isn't such a bad place after all. Abraham - God has throughout is Word shown us over and over that he is indeed loving and He is indeed good. God is not "loving" in some mysterious or unknowable way, but he is universally loving! If God is "sovereign" as defined by you and the Calvinist - then I hope that God apologizes to not only Logan Goodall, but also to Micheal Merrifield and all the families this one atrocity has affected. For God so Loved the World, that He gave his only begotten Son! I guess to you Abraham "love"here really means something else other than benevolence...........
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jun 10, 2008 22:25:55 GMT -5
In a system where men do not have a free will, but God determines everything, only God is evil and men are not. Men are just tools in the hands of a wicked being. "Sinners" are not criminals, they are victims of a bigger stronger being.
To say that God plans sin, and then punishes men for sinning, is to slander the character of God. God is not the author of sin. And men originate their own sin against the plan of God, and are therefore accountable for sinning, because they originate it when God has given them the ability to not sin.
The Bible represents God, not as causing man's sin, but as grieving over man's sin. Any righteous person is broken hearted over the sin of the world. How much more so is the righteous God broken hearted over the sin of mankind?
Noah's flood is proof of God's grieve over mans sin. It is proof that God does not want anyone to sin.
God does not need sin to accomplish His purposes, because God's purpose is to have a sinless universe.
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Post by abraham on Jun 14, 2008 14:09:32 GMT -5
1. What is the difference between murder and manslaughter?
murder - the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought manslaughter - the unlawful killing of a human being without express or implied malice
(both definitions are from Merriam-Webster)
2. Why does God distinguish between murder and manslaughter in his Torah?
I believe it is because there is something to be distinguished between their definition. Correct me if I'm wrong or incomplete in my answer.
3. Why does God spare those under 20 years of age when the Israelites disobey God by not entering the promised land?
God is long-suffering toward vessels of wrath and He shows everlasting mercy upon His Beloved in the whole world. That is not to say that these young men are all elect or even presently saved. But, in either case (reprobate or elect) God is showing a measure of mercy to them by sparing them. (A measure of temporary long-suffering to the reprobate and eternal mercies to the Elect). These young men are not innocent or free from the curse of the Law of God. Only those who are new creatures in Christ are free from the curse. (see 2 Corinthians 5 and the whole epistle of Galatians) We know that all have sinned and all our righteousness is as filthy rags. We also know that every imagination of the thoughts of natural man's heart is only evil continually and that from his youth. (See Genesis 6-8) We know this because God has declared it and decreed it in His Word.
4. Will God hold you accountable on judgment day for not discovering the cure for cancer, aids, and the common cold? Why or why not?
No. He has not commanded us in His word to discover the cure for these diseases. However, God will hold us accountable for every thought, word, deed, and the intents of our heart. If you have the the cure or the power to cure such diseases and you withhold it, you do not truly love your brother.
Dear friend, if you mean to ask this question to relate it to God's acts of kindness towards men, it is folly to use it in relation to the justice and love of God. No one deserves the mercy of God or the cure from the curse of the Law. No one even wants the cure apart God's mercy. Natural men (as we once had been) are so evil and graceless, that it takes God's effectual regenerating work of grace to cause men to be desirous of God's grace or desirous of the true cure from the curse of the Law (and that cure is Jesus and His testimony). The bible says that no man receives His testimony. (see John 3) God is just and true by withholding His effectual work of grace upon whomever He wills not have mercy upon. God has every right to cast the wicked into hell for their sin. God is not obligated to save anyone. Nor do we deserve or merit eternal mercy because an act of our will or running. Faith is a saving gift. Eternal life is saving gift. Praise God that He has decreed in Himself to show everlasting mercy to a multitude of which no man can number out of every kindred, tongue, people, and nation through out the whole world. Amen.
5. If yes to the above, could you give an example of something you will not be accountable for on judgment day? Why would you not be held accountable for this?
We will not be held accountable for something that God has not commanded us to do in His word. God has not commanded us to find the cure for every disease. He has commanded us to preach to the gospel of God's grace to every creature and to be careful to maintain good works out of a pure heart of faith and godly love. This includes healing the sick and praying for their conversion, but it does not include finding a cure for every disease or making sure that their are no sick people in the world. We are to be faithful in what God has called us to do. We are to be faithful to intercede for souls, preach to souls, and do good to souls. But, only God can save a soul from death. No one is deserving of God's mercy and eternal life. God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy. Not of works lest any man should boast and that no flesh should glory in His presences. If we live a life void of love to God and love to our neighbor, it is evident that the love of God does not dwell in us.
God bless you! -Abraham
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Post by mattmisk on Jun 14, 2008 21:32:14 GMT -5
Hey abraham, thanks for the replies!
I would agree with your answers, I think they are correct. If you look at the definitions of the two, you'll see that the only difference between them is the motive of the person for killing. Tell me if you disagree.
I think the fact that God distinguishes between these two crimes is very telling of the nature of his laws. God gives a greater punishment for murder than for manslaughter! Why? The physical act was the same in both cases. The motive was different though.
Is it too far of an implication to say...that God is punishes one man more than another man because of the attitude of the man's heart and mind, because of the man's motive?
I agree with your answer here too, at least in the main point. We know that God shows mercy to all men at all times by not destroying them where they stand. And God is gracious enough to allow even sinful men to pray to him whenever they choose!
What I'm getting at here is something more specific to the situation though. There's no way to prove it, but it seems reasonable to me that God did not punish those under 20 years of age because they, by and large, did not commit the sin of their fathers in disobeying God. They were not responsible for the decision of their fathers because they were too young to be accountable. Like you said, all men are under the curse of the law (all men of any substantial age I would add). In this situation though, I would suggest that God is drawing a distinction between those who are accountable and those who are not accountable. The latter being so because they had no ability to either obey or disobey God. Again, I am referring only to the ability to choose to enter or not to enter the promised land. My point simply being this: God holds men accountable to their ability. I know this passage does not prove this, but I think it supports it.
Exactly, exactly!!! Your response here I think is true, and I think everyone would agree with it. Now here's the clincher, would you agree with the following statement, which I think is a restatement of what you have said:
A man is not accountable for curing cancer and such diseases unless he has power to do so.
No, that wasn't where I was going with it. Since you've brought it up though...it pains my conscience and my reason to suppose that God would only choose to have mercy on some and not on all. That does not in any away appear right or good to my conscience or my reason. What would you say to alleviate my conscience and my reason in this matter so I could believe such a thing?
This is true. Why hasn't God commanded such a thing? I would think it is because it is unreasonable to command us to do something we could not do. As you said in the above answer, if we did indeed have power to cure every disease, then God would command us to cure every disease! What I'm getting at with all of these questions is the idea of accountability - that God judges men by a standard of accountability that is proportional to ability and reason. This resonates very much with my conscience and my reason. What do you think?
Yes indeed, only God can cure a wicked heart. For by the want of God is it wicked, and only by the filling up of it with God can it be pure. God is willing to fill all mens hearts, if they but seek his face.
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I thought I'd take a stab at the next couple of verses you gave at the beginning.
Joh 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
I'm not sure I see the point you're trying to make with this one. Is the idea that God gave Pilate the power to crucify Jesus? Actually Abraham, I think this verse supports what I was talking about above with accountability. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like Pilate is actually less accountable than the people, because his power was given to him from above whereas there's did not. I don't know all the details of this or exactly what this verse means, but that is how it appears to me. So I would say that God gave Pilate the power to crucify his Son, and indeed made sure that events took place which made this happen. Like it says in proverbs, the heart of the King is in the Lord's hand. Notice what this verse says though, that Pilate was less accountable for his actions because, I believe, he was in some ways led to do evil things beyond his control.
Gen 20:5 Did he not himself say to me, 'She is my sister'? And she (I)herself said, 'He is my brother ' In (J)the integrity of my heart and the innocence of my hands I have done this." Gen 20:6 And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.
Once again, we see that God judges men based on their motives.
Where God says, "I also withheld thee from sinning against me" he is referring to what he says next: "therefore suffered I thee not to touch her." That is to say, since Abimelech took Sarah in the integrity of his heart (his motives were pure), God kept him from sinning (touching Sarah). Is this a sufficient explanation?
Gen 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.
I think this is essentially the same as Romans 8:28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
I don't think Gen 50:20 is implying that God caused them specificaly to do this evil, but that God used it to obtain an objective he had in mind. This verse comes to mind:
Esther 4:14 For if you remain silent at this time, relief and deliverance will arise for the Jews from another place and you and your father's house will perish. And who knows whether you have not attained royalty for such a time as this?
I think it is the same with Joseph's brothers - if they had not done that wicked deed, God would have used another means of saving his people.
Pro 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.
I think the Lord turns a king's heart concerning non-moral things. This is more enough to allow God to achieve his ends through a king or ruler. I think it is reading a lot into this proverb to say that the Lord turns the king's heart concerning moral things.
Pro 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.
Once again, this is talking about non-moral things. I plan to go to college in August, but it is God who will direct my steps and determine whether I go or not. If it is the Lord's will, I may end up doing something completely different.
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I need to go to bed, but I look forward to examining the rest of the verses you gave and also your response to my questions.
Thank you, God bless you too, Matt
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Post by abraham on Jun 21, 2008 21:28:34 GMT -5
Dear friend,
You must forsake your own thoughts and your own ways. By the grace of God, we must cease to trust in our own hearts and our own understandings.
"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding." (Pro 3:5)
"He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool: but whoso walketh wisely, he shall be delivered." (Pro 28:26)
We must look to the Word of God and believe the Testimony of Jesus even if our own conscience and reason does not feel at ease with it. God's word is to be held in higher esteem than our own conscience and our own reasonings.
"And that from a child thou hast known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus." (2Ti 3:15)
"If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him." (Jas 1:5)
Please make use of Instaverse.com as you search the scriptures. It will give you a pop-up scripture when you place the mouse over any reference. It's very helpful when people throw you a string of verses and expect you to get your bible out and meditate on each one of them.
Unconditional Election
God is Sovereign
Exo 15:18; 1Chr 29:11-12; 2Chr 20:6; Psa 22:28
1. He exercises that sovereignty in actively ordaining everything
Deu 32:39; 1 Sam 2:6-8; Job 9:12; Job 12:6-10; Psa 33:11; Psa 115:3; Psa 135:6; Isa 14:24; Isa 45:7; Act 15:18; Eph 1:11 * Including matters of “chance”
Pro 16:33; 1Ki 22:20, 34, 37 * The wicked actions of men
Gen 45:5; Gen 50:20; Exo 4:21; Jdg 14:1-4; Psa 76:10; Pro 16:4; Isa 44:28; Amos 3:6; Act 2:22-23; Act 4:27-28 * The actions of evil spirits
1Sam 16:14-16; 1Ki 22:19-23; 1Chr 21:1/2Sam 24:1 * The good actions of men
John 15:16; Eph 2:10; Phi 2:12-13 * The actions of good angels
Psa 103:20; Psa 104:4 * The actions of animals
Num 22:28; 1Ki 17:4; Psa 29:9; Jer 8:7; Eze 32:4; Dan 6:22 * The operations of all creation
Gen 8:22; Psa 104:5-10; Psa 104:13-14; Psa 104:19-20; Mark 4:39 2. Man is not permitted to question his sovereign acts
Job 33:12-13; Isa 29:16; Isa 45:9-10; Mat 20:1-16; Rom 9:19-24
God elects [i.e. chooses, predestines, foreordains]
1. His angels
1 Tim 5:21 2. His peculiar people, Israel
Exo 6:7; Deu 7:6-8; Deu 10:14-15; Psa 33:12; Isa 43:20-21 3. Individuals to salvation
Psa 65:4; Mat 24:24; John 6:37; John 15:16; Act 13:48; Rom 8:28-30; Rom 9:10-24; Rom 11:5-7; Eph 1:3-6; Eph 1:11-12; 1The 1:4; 1The 5:9; 2The 2:13-14 4. Individuals to condemnation
Exo 4:21; Rom 9:13; Rom 9:17-18; Rom 9:21-22; 1Pet 2:8
His motivation in election
1. His own good pleasure
Eph 1:5; 2Tim 1:9 2. The display of his glory
Isa 43:6-7; Rom 9:22-24; 1Cor 1:27-31; Eph 2:4-7; Pro 16:4 3. His special love
Deu 7:6-8; 2The 2:13 4. His foreknowledge
Rom 8:29; 1Pet 1:2 * Which means his special love
Jer 1:5; Amos 3:2; Mat 7:22-23; 1Cor 8:3; 2Tim 2:19; 1Pet 1:20 * But not: * Any good [nobility, wisdom, power, choice, seeking] he foresees in anyone
Deu 7:7; Rom 9:11-13; Rom 9:16; Rom 10:20; 1Cor 1:27-29; 1Cor 4:7; 2Tim 1:9
Total Depravity
Man is constituted a sinner by his relationship with Adam
Psa 51:5; Psa 58:3; Rom 5:18-19
He is therefore unable
1. To do anything good
Gen 6:5; Job 15:14-16; Psa 130:3; Psa 143:2; Pro 20:9; Ecc 7:20; Isa 64:6; Jer 13:23; John 3:19; Rom 3:9-12; Jam 3:8; 1John 1:8 2. To believe in God (or come to him)
John 6:44; John 6:65; John 8:43-45; John 10:26; John 12:37-41 3. To understand the truth
John 14:17; 1Cor 2:14 4. To seek God
Rom 3:10-11
He is dead in sins
Gen 2:16-17; John 3:5-7; Eph 2:1-3; Col 2:13
He is blinded and corrupt in his heart
Gen 6:5; Gen 8:21; Ecc 9:3; Jer 17:9; Mark 7:21-23; John 3:19-21; Rom 8:7-8; Eph 4:17-19; Eph 5:8
He is captive to sin and Satan
John 8:34; John 8:44; Rom 6:20; 2Tim 2:25-26; Tit 3:3; 1John 5:19
He performs actions freely according to his nature, but his nature is wholly evil
Job 14:4; Mat 7:16-18; Mat 12:33; Mark 7:21-23; Jam 1:13-14
Limited Atonement
God purposed to redeem a certain people and not others
1Chr 17:20-21; Mat 22:14; 1Pet 2:8-9 [see “God elects individuals to salvation”/God elects individuals to condemnation”]
1. It is for these in particular that Christ gave his life
Isa 53:10-11; Mat 1:21; John 6:35-40; John 10:3-4, 11, 14-15; Act 20:28; Eph 5:25 [we are commanded to love our wives in the same way that Christ loved the church and gave himself for it; therefore, if Christ loved and gave himself for all people in the same way, we are commanded to love all women in the same way that we love our wives]; Heb 2:17; Heb 9:15 2. It is for these in particular that Christ intercedes
John 17:1-2; John 17:6-12; John 17:20-21, 24-26; Rom 8:34 3. The people for whom Christ intercedes are the same as the people for whom he offered himself up as a sacrifice
Heb 7:24-27; Heb 9:12 [note context, in which entering into the holy place is explicitly for the purpose of intercession], 24-28 [For a fuller understanding of the indissoluble connection between sacrifice and intercession, read Hebrews chapters 7-10]
The atonement of Christ is effective
1. To justify
Isa 53:11 [the single effective cause of justification in view here is the bearing of iniquities; all whose iniquities Christ bore must be justified]; Rom 8:34 [the argument here is that the fact of Christ’s death, resurrection, and intercession is in itself an incontrovertibly effective reason for non-condemnation; if this verse is true, then no one for whom Christ died and was raised to intercede may be condemned] 2. To redeem and cleanse from sins
Eph 5:25-27; Tit 2:14 3. To propitiate the Father
1John 2:2 [“propitiation” means “the turning away or appeasement of wrath”; therefore, by definition, the Father has no more wrath against those whose sins have been propitiated]; 1John 4:10 4. To raise to new life
2Cor 5:14-15 [the argument is a simple “if/then” proposition: “if” Christ died for someone, “then,” with no other conditions, that person died with him and was raised again]; 1Pet 3:18
[See also, “Jesus’ death purchased for his people a new heart; – faith; – repentance”. Jesus died in order to establish the New Covenant (Mat. 26:26-29, etc.); the New Covenant promised faith, repentance and knowledge of God (Jer. 31:33-34, Ez. 36:26-27, etc.); therefore, Jesus died in order to provide faith, repentance, and knowledge of God, as the fulfillment of a unilateral promise. This means that his death had a definite purpose which was intended for some and not others. His death effectively purchased faith; not all have faith; and so his death had an effective intent that was limited to certain persons.]
Those whom God purposed to redeem include all who believe
John 3:16
1. From every nation
Rev 5:9 2. From every class
Gal 3:28; 1Tim 2:1-6 [the first “all men” is explicitly tied to all classes of men, which gives warrant for understanding the second “all men” in the same way] 3. Therefore, Christ’s saving work is commonly spoken of in terms of “all,” “world,” etc.
John 1:29; Tit 2:11-14 [in the context of “all men” is the delimiting concept of a peculiar people, zealous of good works]; Heb 2:9-10 [notice that the many sons whom Christ brings to glory gives a contextual delimiter to the term “every”]; 2Pet 3:9 [note that this desire is explicitly limited to “us” (Peter was writing to fellow-believers) in the context]; 1John 2:2 [propitiation means “appeasement of wrath”; either Jesus appeases God’s wrath against all, and therefore hell (which is the place where God’s wrath resides) is non-existent; or the “whole world” means something different than “every individual who ever lived”. See John 11:51-52, and “The word ‘world’ is often used in the sense of ‘many,’ or ‘all of a set’”] 4. The word “all” is often used to indicate all of a set, or even many representatives of a set
Mat 10:22; 1Cor 6:12; 1Cor 15:22; Mat 2:3; John 4:29; Act 10:39; Act 17:21; Act 21:28; Act 26:4 5. Or, to indicate all “classes” or “nations,” not all individuals
Mat 5:11; Act 2:17; Act 10:12 6. The word “world” is often used in the sense of “many,” or “all of a set”
Luk 2:1-2; John 6:33; John 12:19; Act 19:27; Rom 1:8
Additional reasons that the atonement of Christ is not for all the sins of all people
1. God punishes people in hell, which would be unjust if their sins were atoned for
Mark 9:43-44 2. If one were to say, “their sins are atoned for, but that atonement is not applied because of unbelief,” he fails to realize that unbelief is likewise a sin
Heb 3:12
[“The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for either:
1) All the sins of all men;
2) All the sins of some men; or
3) Some of the sins of all men.
In which case it may be said:
1) If the last be true all men have some sins to answer for, and so none are saved;
2) That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth;
3) But if the first is the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins? You answer, Because of unbelief. I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!” – John Owen, The Death of Death in the Death of Christ] 3. God bears eternal wrath against people, which by definition means that his wrath against them has not been propitiated [appeased]
1The 2:16; 2The 1:6-9
Intentions of Christ’s death other than atonement
1. To make a public display of demons
Col 2:13-15 2. To rule over everyone
Rom 14:9 3. To redeem creation
Isa 35:1-4; Rom 8:20-23 4. To lay the foundation for a genuine gospel call
John 6:39-40; John 7:37-38 5. To provide temporal mercies for the non-elect
Mat 5:45; 1Tim 4:10
Irresistible Grace
Faith and Repentance (as well as the new heart which is able to produce them) are themselves gifts of God
1. A new heart
Deu 30:6; Eze 11:19; Eze 36:26-27 2. Faith
John 3:27; Phi 1:29; 2Pet 1:1; Act 16:14; Act 18:27; Eph 2:8-10 3. Repentance
Act 5:3; Act 11:18; 2Tim 2:25-26; 1 Cor 4:7
The Father writes his own word upon (places the fear of himself in, etc.) his people’s hearts
Jer 31:33; Jer 32:40; Mat 16:15-17; Luk 10:21; John 6:45; 2 Cor 4:6
The beginning of salvation is the sovereign impartation of spiritual life into a heart which had been dead, thereby causing it to exercise faith
1 John 5:1; Eze 37:3-6, 11-14; John 1:11-13; John 3:3-8; John 5:21; Eph 2:1-5; Jam 1:18; 1 Pet 1:3; 1 John 2:29
True offers of grace in the outward gospel call may be resisted by men who do not have this new heart
Act 17:32-33
In fact, true offers of grace will always be resisted by such men
John 10:24-26; John 12:37-40
But there are some whom God causes to come to him
Psa 65:4; Psa 110:3; John 6:37-40; Rom 9:15
Perseverance of the Saints
What God begins, he finishes
Psa 138:8; Ecc 3:14; Isa 46:4; Jer 32:40; Rom 11:29; Phi 1:6; 2 Tim 4:18
Of all whom he has called and brought to Christ, none will be lost
John 6:39-40; John 10:27-29; Rom 8:28-31; Rom 8:35-39; Heb 7:25; Heb 10:14
God’s preservation of the saints is not irrespective of their continuance in the faith
1Cor 6:9-10; Gal 5:19-21; Eph 5:5; Heb 3:14; Heb 6:4-6; Heb 10:26-27; Heb 12:14; Rev 21:7-8; Rev 22:14-15
However, it is God who sanctifies us and causes us to persevere
John 15:16; 1Cor 1:30-31; 1Cor 6:11; 1Cor 12:3; 1Cor 15:10; Gal 3:1-6; Eph 2:10; Phi 2:12-13; 1The 5:23-24; Heb 13:20-21; 1John 2:29; Jud 1:24-25
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Post by prespilot68 on Jun 21, 2008 22:23:45 GMT -5
You must forsake your own thoughts and your own ways. By the grace of God, we must cease to trust in our own hearts and our own understandings. Abraham - so what your really saying here is we are to void our brain of any reason and logic and become mindless slaves to Calvinism? The fallacy here is God has created us in his image - we have a brain and an intellect and Yes He expects us to use them! The issue here is this brother can't seem to get it past his frontal lobes the total contradiction your theology puts forth , how a "loving" God is also a God who is arbitrary and cruel. There is nothing wrong with this brothers thinking, he is simply not able to swallow such vile inconsistencies as Calvinism puts forth. So here is my question to you then, if we are to "cease to trust in our own hearts and our own understanding" how then can we ever determine what is the truth? Just because Calvinist tell us that its their version of the gospel thats the truth? Clearly if I void my brain and "cease to use my understanding" to determine truth - then how do I know what your putting forth is the truth? The thing is Abraham what your putting forth here is reductio ad absurdum! Finally, let's look at the ministry of Jesus to see if he ever made such a request of any of his listeners. Did Jesus ever tell people to void their minds and take a blind leap of faith as you have put forth here? No! Jesus used parables to strike to the heart of men - WHY?! Because every parable Jesus used required the listener to use their own God-given sense of REASON and LOGIC to come to the conclusion that what Jesus was saying was the TRUTH! The reason Jesus struck terror in the hearts of Pharisee's is that what he was saying was striking to the core of their reason and logic. They knew they could not contradict Him, as what ever they would put forth would only be absurd or illogical. So when Calvinist put forth vile doctrines that horrendously violate peoples reason and logic its for good reason - its because that's the way God has created them and it is the only way to discern truth! So my advice to you is to stop telling people to stop trusting their own understanding because that's the only way one is to discern truth.
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Post by mattmisk on Jun 22, 2008 7:28:45 GMT -5
abraham,
Thank you for the scriptures, but I can myself easily find lists of scriptures to support Calvinism. The reason I come to this forum to discuss and interact with people. I would be glad to look at the scriptures you posted, but perhaps you could first respond to my interpretation of the last scriptures you posted. Also, I had asked you this question:
[/u] [/quote]
Also,
The scripture will never go against our conscience or reason, and neither will God's Word. Furthermore, the scripture commands us to follow our conscience and use our reason.
Also, if you don't want to continue this discussion, no problem.
Oh, and prespilot - good post!!!
Matt
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Post by abraham on Jun 25, 2008 22:11:58 GMT -5
"Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD." (Isa 55:6-8)
Your own conscience can be defiled. [1] "...their conscience being weak is defiled." (1Co 8:7) [2] "Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron" (1Ti 4:2)
The Word of God is what you need to follow. [1] "Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers." (Tts 1:9) [2] "Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck." (1Ti 1:19)
God is not obligated to show mercy to anyone. Sinners are not to be compared to poor sick people who want a cure. All sinners are rebels who hate God. i have been reading through Isaiah and I am amazed that God has shown mercy on us. We should be more amazed that God has shown mercy on some. Rather, you are questioning why would God would not have mercy on all. My friend, God can do whatever He wants with us concerning His mercy. Mercy is undeserved. Mercy is not a medicine for an innocent sick soul. Mercy is a soveriegn work of Grace upon the worst of wretched sinners, whereby He grants them mercy to be faithful.
Read what Paul the apostle said concerning why he was faithful? He declared by the Spirit of God, that he had obtained Mercy to be Faithful.
"...yet I give my judgment, as one that hath obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful." (1Co 7:25)
Furthermore, read what Paul said concerning why He was saved.
"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;" (Tts 3:5)
Sinners are not innocent sick people who want the cure.
Read what Isaiah says about the wicked? [1] The wicked are a seed of evildoers. They are children that are corrupters. Their whole head is sick and their whole heart is faint. From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it (Isa 1:4-6). [2] The gifts and sacrifices of the wicked are vain and abominable unto God. The religious zeal and penance of the wicked is iniquity (Isa 1:13). [3] The wicked may hear the gospel with their ears, but they do not understand it with an ear of faith. The wicked may see the works of the LORD with their eyes, but they do not percieve the LORD with the eyes of understanding (Isa 6:9). [4] When the LORD smits or punishes the wicked, they do not turn unto him. The wicked do not seek the LORD (Isa 9:13). [5] The LORD shall have no joy in the young men that He has chosen to not have mercy upon. For everyone of them is a hypocrite, an evildoer, and every mouth speaks folly (Isa 9:17). [6] If favor is shown to the wicked, he will not learn righteousness. In the land of uprightness he will not deal justly and he will not behold the majesty of the LORD (Isa 26:10). [7] The wicked are children that will not hear the law of the LORD (Isa 30:9). [8] The heart of the wicked will work iniquity (Isa 32:6). [9] All nations before the LORD are as nothing. They are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity (Isa 40:17). [10] The wicked may see many of the wonderful works of God, but they will not observe or give heed to the gospel call. The wicked may attend to hear the gospel with their ears, but they do not understand it with their heart (Isa 42:20). [11] The greedy shepherds cannot understand (Isa 56:11). [12] None of the wicked call for justice. None of the wicked plead [or defend] for truth. The works of the wicked are works of iniquity. Their feet run to evil, and they make haste to shed innocent blood. Their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity. Wasting [or violence] and destruction are in their paths. The way of peace they know not. There is no judgment in their goings. They have made them crooked paths. The wicked are in desolate places as dead men (Isa 59:4-10). [13] We are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags. We all do fade as a leaf. Our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. There is none that calleth upon the name of the LORD, that stirreth up himself to take hold of the LORD (Isa 64:6-7).
You may say, "Well all the wicked have to do is just seek God and then God will show Him mercy."
What does the LORD require from us if we are to truly seek Him: [1] It is forbidden for you to rebel against God (Isa 1:2). [2] It is forbidden for you to forsake the LORD (Isa 1:4). [3] It is forbidden to use your tongue and your doings against the LORD (Isa 3:8). [4] It is forbidden for you to weary God (Isa 7:13). [5] It is your duty to have the LORD as your fear and your dread (Isa 8:13). [6] It is your duty to seek unto God (Isa 8:19). [7] It is forbidden for you to forget the God of your salvation and to be not mindful of the rock of your strength (Isa 17:10). [8] It is your duty to have your mind stayed on God by trusting in Him (Isa 26:3-4). [9] It is forbidden for you to hate the word of God and the holiness of God (Isa 30:11). [10] It is forbidden for you to utter error against the LORD (Isa 32:6). [11] It is forbidden for you to reproach God, blaspheme God, exalt your voice against God, and lift up your eyes on high against God ( Isa 37:23). [12] It is forbidden for you to rage against the LORD (Isa 37:28). [13] It is forbidden for you to be incensed [or Inflamed to violent anger] against God and to strive with Him (Isa 41:11). [14] It is your duty to give glory unto the LORD, and declare his praise in the islands (Isa 42:12). [15] It is your duty to put the LORD and in remembrance (Isa 43:26). [16] It is forbidden for you to strive with your Maker by disputing with his purposes and decrees (Isa 45:9). [17] It is your duty to fear the LORD, trust in the name of the LORD, and stay upon your God (Isa 50:10). [18] It is forbidden for you to forget the LORD your Maker (Isa 51:13). [19] It is forbidden for you to sport youself against the LORD by making your mouth wide and drawing out your tongue against Him (Isa 57:4). [20] It is forbidden for you to transgress against the LORD and depart away from your God (Isa 59:13). [21] It is your duty to rememberthe LORD in His ways (Isa 64:5). [22] It is forbidden for you to provoke the LORD to anger continually to His face (Isa 65:3). [23] It is forbidden for you to forsake the LORD by forgetting His holy mountain [which is in relation to Mount Zion, the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and the Gospel church] (Isa 65:11).
What else does God require if you are truly going to seek Him:
The First Commandment (Exod. 20:3)
(Isa. 44:6) (Exod. 6:3) (Acts 17:24, 28) (Luke 1:68, 74-75)
DUTIES REQUIRED IN THE FIRST COMMANDMENT The duty to know and acknowledge God to be the only true God: (1 Chron. 28:9; See also 2 Kings 20:3; 2 Chron. 15:2; Deut. 31:17) (Jer. 14:22) The duty to worship God: (Psa. 95: 6—7) (See also Phil. 2:10; Psa. 79:13) The duty to glorify God: (Psa. 29:2) The duty to think about God: (Mal. 3:16) The duty to meditate on God: (Psa.63:6) (See also Psa. 42:8) The duty to remember God: (Eccl. 12:1) The duty to honour God: (Mal. 1:6) (See also Luke 6:46) The duty to esteem God highly: (Psa. 71:19) The duty to believe God: (Exod. 14:31) The duty to trust God: (Isa. 26:4) The duty to delight in God: (Psa. 37:4) The duty to rejoice in God: (Psa. 32:11) The duty to obey God and submit to him: (]er. 7:23) (James 4:7) The duty to walk humbly before God: (Mic. 6:8)
SINS FORBIDDEN IN THE FIRST COMMANDMENT The sin of atheism: (Psa. 14:1) (Eph. 2:11—12) The sin of idolatry, having or worshipping more gods than one: (Jer. 2:27) (1 Thess. 1:9) The sin of omission or neglect of anything due to God: (Isa. 43:22—24) The sin of forgetting God: (Jer. 2:32) The sin of having false opinions about God: (Isa. 40:18) The sin of having unworthy and wicked thoughts about God: (Psa. 50:21) The sin of curious searching into his secrets: (Deut. 29:29) The sin of hatred of God: (Rom. 1:30) The sin of self—love: (2 Tim. 3:2) The sin of self—seeking: (Phil. 2:21) The sin of inordinate and immoderate setting our mind, will, or affections upon things other than God: (1 John 2:15—16) (Col. 3:2) The sin of unbelief: (Heb. 3:12) The sin of despair: (Gen. 4:13) The sin of hardening our hearts: (Rom. 2:5) The sin of pride: (Jer. 13:15) The sin of tempting God: (Matt. 4:7) The sin of praying to or worshipping saints, angels, or any other creatures: (Hos. 4:12) (Acts 10:2S—26) (Rev. 19:20) (Matt. 4:10) (Cot. 2:18) The sin of all friendship and consulting with the devil: (Lev. 20:6) The sin of making man the lord over our faith and conscience: (2 Cor. 1:24) (Matt. 23:4) The sin of resisting and grieving the Spirit: (Acts 7:51) (Eph. 4:30) The sin of discontentment and impatience with God’s dealings, thus charging him foolishly for the evils that he inflicts on us: (Psa. 73:2—3,13—15, 22) (Job 1:22) (Psa. 119:5—8, 34—36, 47—48, 61—62, 77, 126, 142, 153, 165, 176)
God often commands men to do that which they will not and cannot do. Therefore God has the right command and He does command sinners to do what they ought to do even though they do not have the heart or will to do it.
“O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart.” (Pro 8:5) “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1Co 2:14) “There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.” (Rom 3:11) “Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.” (Jn 8:43)
Many assume that it is unjust for God to command someone to do that which they are unwilling and unable to do. Sadly, this reasoning has led many to conclude for the natural man, "If God commands it, they must have the will and ability to perform it. If they don't, then God is unjust for commanding it." However (as we have seen in scripture), God often commands men to do that which they are unable and unwilling to do. 1. He has the right to do as he pleases. He's God and we are not. He determines what is just and we are to submit to the bible even if it goes against human reasoning. 2. He commands men to make themselves a new heart and clean themselves, so that they may taste of their own inability/unwillingness. This bitter taste of hopelessness in the soul will box sinners up to the mercy of God revealed at the Cross of Christ and it is God’s way of teaching sinners not to trust in their own hearts or their own dead works. 3. God shall have glory to himself, when He graciously and mercifully gives saving grace that makes sinners into new creatures through the washing of regeneration by the truth and preaching of the gospel. God gets the glory because he chose to bless an undeserving sinner with a new heart. “For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to naught things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.” (1Co 1:26-21)
God bless you! -Abraham
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Post by mattmisk on Jun 26, 2008 7:26:26 GMT -5
Abraham, let's continue this discussion in private. Matt
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Post by jackjackson on Jun 26, 2008 14:10:49 GMT -5
I heard a great analogy on the Kingdom of God. Jesus said it is here and to come. There will be a 1000 years to come, but also is now, because He is King.
Lancelot was in the geographic region of King Arthur. It was his Kingdom, he was the king, but initially Lancelot rebelled. He was in the geogrpahic boundary of the King, but did not become part of the kingdom until he submitted himself to the rule of King Arthur.
any today will claim to be part of the Kingdom of God, and in reality we all are living in His geographic Kingdom which is all the universe. That doesn't mean that everyone is therefore part of that Kingdom because they are not subject to His rule over them. They are yet rebellious to God, and if they stay that way will be placed with Satan and the other rebells.
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