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Post by Brother Adiel on Jul 9, 2008 21:36:46 GMT -5
I am one who sees in the Scriptures what is commonly referred to as "The Five Points". That is, as far as I can see, the Scriptures reveal that:
1. Man hates God so much that, apart from God's effectual call, he cannot, will not, and does not come to Christ 2. God the Father has graciously chosen some to be effectually called and given to His Son 3. God the Son has joyfully made propitiation for those whom the Father gave Him 4. God the Holy Spirit lovingly effectually calls those whom the Father gave to the Son 5. The Triune God who began this good work in His elect will complete it to the end. In other words, those He called He also justifies; and whom He justifies, He also glorifies.
OK. I would like to discuss with whomever is interested how certain biblical passages are interpreted.
Ground Rule:
Lets not bombard each other. By 'bombard' I mean, if one of us asks a question, the other person should not respond with an answer so lengthy and citing so many Scripture references that it would take forever for the other person to answer each point and actually diverts attention away from the main point at hand. Jesse, you know what I'm talking about! Instead, lets just give simple straight forward answers to each other's questions. Fair enough?
OK. To start...
The verse in red is the one in question. In this text I see that whoever is "not of God" does not hear God's words ie believe Jesus. The reason they do not "hear" ie believe is because they are not of God. But those who are "of God" hear God's words.
How do you interpret it?
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Post by Steve Noel on Jul 10, 2008 7:35:41 GMT -5
Those referred to here that are "of God" are the godly Jewish remnant at the time of Christ. These are those the Father gives to the Son. These are the sheep that follow his voice. These are they the Father draws to the Son. Unfortunately the Calvinist always imposes election on these passages even though nothing in the context says anything about election. Do you really believe that there are some sinners that are "of God"? What does that even mean? If you follow the theme in John you will notice that Jesus is constantly rebuking the unbelieving Jews (especially the leaders) for not really being God's children. The contrast is not between the elect sinners who are "of God" and the non-elect sinners who are "of the devil". The contrast is between those who rightly responded to God's revelation in the O.T. and those who didn't but claimed that they did.
Steve
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Post by Brother Adiel on Jul 10, 2008 10:56:34 GMT -5
Who are those who "rightly responded to God's revelation in the O.T." ie heard God's word? Those who were "of God"?
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Post by Steve Noel on Jul 10, 2008 11:58:47 GMT -5
Peter, John, Mary, Elizabeth, Simeon, Anna, etc.
I simply view this as those who were already the Father's under the old covenant who were transitioning to the Son. They were those who were truly Abraham's children and had a righteousness through faith like he did. The context of John 8 is Jews who were claiming to be children of God the Father while at the same time rejecting Jesus the Son. Jesus makes it clear that if they were truly children of God the Father they would receive the Son because he has come from the Father (Jn 10:42). Those who are "of God" in this context are those who were already children of God under the old covenant and who were responding to the Son. Those who were not "of God" are those who claimed to be children of God but in truth were not. This is a continual theme throughout the gospel of John. Those who were already following the Father were transitioning into the flock of the Son. I don't see anything in the context that would bring election into the scene. This has to be brought in from other texts and forced into this context.
In summary I view all these passages in John as being in the context of the transitional period from the old to the new covenant. I believe Calvinists generally bring their view of election and read it into these passages when there's no contextual support for it. Can you give me anything in the context of this passage that points to election? You must define those who are "of God" and who are "not of God" by the context. What in the context convinces you that those who are "of God" are the elect while those who are "not of God" are the non-elect? (I'm assuming that's how you understand it? Please correct any misunderstanding I have.) Is that really a conclusion from exegesis or is it reading the text through a particular theological grid?
Steve
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Post by jackjackson on Jul 10, 2008 12:48:15 GMT -5
The New Covevant (Jer. 31) is about no obeying just to make one's self look righteous before men. Many who thought themselves righteous were only acting that way to be seen by men, not because they loved God. A slave doesn't want to have to obey, though they do. A child can stand in the corner and be sitting down on the inside.
When true repentance comes, person has a desire in their heart to obey because that is right in the site of God. They can then delight in the law (torah) (being no more grievious) and obey in a more honorable way, the way Jesus did. Jesus came to make the law (torah) more honrable and magnify it.
The one who responds in love to obey, not just to get something or look better to men, is truly responding for the proper reasons.
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Post by Brother Adiel on Jul 10, 2008 13:17:18 GMT -5
Well, whether its part of a presupposed theological grid, I don't think so because these are the types of verses that brought me to my current theological grid in the first place.
I hear what you are saying and it sounds reasonable to a certain extent. But again, I think what I want to know is, how did those people hear God's word in the first place? I understand that the reason those Old Testament people heard God's word in the first place (before Christ came to them) was because they were "of God". Otherise, they would have never heard God's word. I don't know, thats just the way I see it. I see it as it teaching that there are lost people in this world that God somehow considers His own, whom, when Christ is preached to them, will hear ie believe.
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Post by jackjackson on Jul 10, 2008 14:07:22 GMT -5
God give grace to the humble, but reject the proud. If you seek after God, He will seek after you......
If you call on the name of the Lord....
Cornelious was seen as a pious gentile.
It is even being discussed that the prophet Isaiah (the Tisbite) was actually a Gentile. The term Tisbite might not have been his city, but a term that meant righteous Gentile.
John 1:9 tells us that the true light has lighteth every man that came into the world. We see that unless God draws, no one comes.
God draws everyone with all of Creation, so no one is without excuse.
So maybe we will believe that God takes no pleasure in that the wicked perish. We will believe that He wants all men everywhere to repent and come to the knowledge of God, and therefore believe He tries to reach everyone (all are called), but because He won't make us love Him, some don't respend to these ways He shows Himself and they reject His knocking and eventuall are given over to their own desires and sins.
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Post by mattmisk on Jul 10, 2008 18:31:55 GMT -5
But again, I think what I want to know is, how did those people hear God's word in the first place? Romans 10 12For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED." 14How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO (W)BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!" 16However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?" 17So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. 18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have; "THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH, AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD." 19But I say, surely Israel did not know, did they? First Moses says, "I WILL MAKE YOU JEALOUS BY THAT WHICH IS NOT A NATION, BY A NATION WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING WILL I ANGER YOU." 20And Isaiah is very bold and says, "I WAS FOUND BY THOSE WHO DID NOT SEEK ME, I BECAME MANIFEST TO THOSE WHO DID NOT ASK FOR ME." Acts 17 23"For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, 'TO AN UNKNOWN GOD ' Therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you. 24"The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; 25nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; 26 and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.'
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Post by Steve Noel on Jul 10, 2008 22:19:10 GMT -5
for you (a name?),
I see what you're asking now. I guess my understanding remains the same. Jesus is applying this text specifically to certain Jews in opposition to him at that time ("therefore you do not hear"). He says the reason they do not hear is because they are not of God. I understand your view to be that Jesus is saying to them, "You do not hear because you are not one of the elect". While I'm viewing Jesus as saying, "You do not hear because you are not really God's children". I don't believe that Jesus is dealing with the theological question of how some sinners hear and some do not. Taking the one verse here out of it's context may make it appear that he is, but I think the context does not support this conclusion. Jesus said to them, "if God were your Father you would love me..." (42). Are we to understand then that God is the Father of certain elect sinners even though they are presently living like the devil? No! John is clear earlier that we must become children of God through faith (Jn 1:12). God's children are not sinners but saints. Not just in name but in practice. It's ridiculous to consider certain sinners mysterious children of God because of election before they are actually converted. Jesus is clear throughout this passage that their actions and attitudes demonstrated that they were not God's children. That is the point. They claimed to be God's children but were rejecting God's Son. They were not of God but of the devil. This is not a passage that is dealing with election in my opinion.
Steve
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Post by Kerrigan on Jul 11, 2008 6:25:27 GMT -5
I liked what you had to say Steve. Thanks for sharing brother. It's good to have you involved in the discussions again...
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Post by Brother Adiel on Jul 11, 2008 8:03:01 GMT -5
My name is Adiel. Pleasure to meet you.
I hear you man and you do a good job of explaining your view. But still, it seems to me like you are saying that they do not hear because they are not of God, but somehow, if they hear they will become of God, although they can't hear (because they are not of God).
OK, lets move to another verse, though I think your interpretation will be very similar to the way you interpreted the previous verse...
I take this to mean that Jesus, the good Shepherd, knows His sheep and is known by His sheep and He lays down His life for them. But He also has other sheep which are not of the Jewish fold [Gentile sheep] whom He must also bring. He calls these Gentiles His sheep though they have not yet repented and believed the gospel and is assured that they will hear His voice and follow Him.
And, without trying to take on too much, this verse:
I understand Jesus to be saying that the reason they do not believe is because they are not of His sheep (and not the opposite which would be that the reason they are not of His sheep is because they do not believe). But those who are His sheep, whether Jews or Gentiles, do believe; they hear His voice, is known by them, and they follow Him.
How do you interpret them?
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Post by Steve Noel on Jul 11, 2008 10:17:45 GMT -5
Adiel, I thought you had given your name sometime before. Sorry I forgot. Thanks. You're right. I view this very similarly as I view the previous passage. I have to ask again how it can be said that there are certain sinners (the elect) that know the Lord? For Jesus says here that he is known by them (Jn 10:14). Do you believe that certain wicked sinners genuinely know the Lord while yet unconverted? Listen to the note on this verse in The Reformation Study Bible edited by R.C. Sproul: "10:14 I know my own and my own know me. This is placed in parallel with the intimacy between the Father and the Son (v. 15; cf. 17:21-23). It is clear that 'know' here, as so often in Scripture, means more than a mental grasp; it includes personal understanding and a commitment of will. To say that God 'knows' a person in this way refers to His gracious redemptive commitment to that individual." (p. 1531) He focuses on God knowing the sheep here but consider what this then means when it says that the Sheep know Jesus. In his words they have "a personal understanding and a commitment of will". Yet these are supposedly unconverted people. Do you believe that there are unconverted people that have a personal understanding and committed will toward Jesus Christ? It seems you would be forced to say yes if this is speaking of the mysterious elect. I believe John 5:46-47 and John 6:45 will give you some insight into why I view these texts in John this way. You don't have to respond to these texts right now but I think they'll help you see where I'm coming from. "If you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?" -John 5:46-47 ESV "It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me-" -John 6:45 In these texts Jesus speaks of why some are coming to him while others are not. Those who have heard and learned from the Father through the O.T. were now coming to the Son. In my opinion these are the sheep he is speaking of in John 10. I agree that the "other sheep" mentioned here are Gentiles who were to come to Christ in the future. I guess I view these as Gentiles who were already a part of God the Father's flock who would respond to the Son when the gospel comes to them. This would be someone like Lydia in Acts 16 who the Scripture says was a "worshiper of God" (v.14) but had not yet repented and trusted in Christ for salvation. She was God's sheep already but had not transitioned into the fold of the Son yet. Steve P.S. Kerrigan, thanks for the encouragement brother. I appreciate you guys.
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Post by jackjackson on Jul 11, 2008 11:17:48 GMT -5
That was a good explanation Steve. I would also add that we see things in time, and God sees things out of time. God has foreknowledge and therefore Jesus knows more sheep will be added until He will come again.
The reason He uses sheep as an example is because people of that time understood what He meant. A shepherd could bring His sheep down from the pastureland and hills and bring his sheep in a pen or fold with many other groups of sheep. When that shepherd would then make his call to his sheep to leave and get back to pasture, his sheep would actually have been so acustomed to trusting in him, they ould hear his voice and follow after him, proving their dependance on him.
This trusting comes from experience the goodness of the shepherd as he brings them to good pasture, still water, rescues them with rod (etc... see psalm 23).
We love Him because He first loved us. We loose our life to save it.
Some respond to love, nd are given the power to become sons of God as Steve mentioned from John 1:12; others reject that love and are called fools in Proverbs 14.
Hearing is not just hearing the sounds waves made by ones voice, but hearing in the sense of this word is to harken to, or respond in that way that the command was intended. My children might hear me call them to come o me, but they really only truly harken when they hear my voice and come to me to see why I called.
We are to be at the ready to respond to God's calls, like a soldier is ready to obey his superior officer. In battle it can be a life of death situation, as it can be in the spiritual realm as well with the Lord.
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Post by Brother Adiel on Jul 11, 2008 23:19:54 GMT -5
I have to ask again how it can be said that there are certain sinners (the elect) that know the Lord? For Jesus says here that he is known by them (Jn 10:14). Do you believe that certain wicked sinners genuinely know the Lord while yet unconverted? No I do not believe that certain wicked sinners genuinely know the Lord while yet unconverted. I think Jesus explains what He means when He says that He is known by His own in verse 16: "and they will hear My voice". He is known by His own in that when the gospel is preached to them they hear His voice and they follow Him. Or just like Jack Jackson said, "we see things in time, and God sees things out of time". In other words, Jesus' sheep hear His voice and know Him in time. God however knew them from before time began. What about the Gentile sheep who have not read the Old Testament and know not God? Think about it: there are some idolatrous pagans out there in the world whom Jesus considers His sheep and is assured that they will definitely hear His voice and know Him. God will give these to Christ and they will come to Him, and He will by no means cast them out. Are you telling me that you believe that when Jesus mentioned those who were "of God", and who were "His sheep" (whether Jew or Gentile) He was only talking about people long ago who were originally not "of God" but heard God's word (the OT) and became "of God" ie "His sheep"? Though the previous verse we discussed said that those who are not "of God" do not hear God's word. At what point do any of these verses start applying to us? Do you believe that Jesus' statement that He has Gentile sheep who will hear His voice does not apply to anyone who has never read the OT? Or do you believe that there are unconverted unsaved people in the world who have heard God's word apart from the OT and have become God's sheep, though they are lost and have not heard Jesus' voice. I believe that Jesus' Gentile sheep are lost unconverted sinners whom belong to God though they are lost and God-hating, whom, at the appropriate time, when the gospel is preached to them will hear Jesus' voice and come to Him. Because they are "of God" in due time they will hear God's word, when it comes to them. God bless you brother. Adiel
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Post by Steve Noel on Jul 12, 2008 8:35:21 GMT -5
Adiel,
You make some good points here. I see that some of what I said is inadequate. I don't have time to go through this passage right now but I'll try to get to it later tonight.
God bless,
Steve
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kenm
Full Member
Posts: 173
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Post by kenm on Jul 13, 2008 17:28:54 GMT -5
Hey,
Have you considered that just because Jesus knew that they would come to Him, does not mean that He forced them or they were predestined to be made to choose Him. If God is omniscient is it not possible for God to know our decision without forcing it. Is it not possible that He knew that there were some that when they heard the truth would genuinely come to Jesus because of the Word and not being forced by some predestination?
Remember the parable of the 100 sheep and how one was lost, and the shepherd left the fold to go after and how there was rejoicing upon the return of the 1.
If it was already predetermined who will come or come back why would there be such rejoicing, it is already decided who will come and who will not come back. Would the parable be different if the sheep that left the fold was not predetermined to return, then would the shepherd just have stayed with the 99.?
In the same passage Jesus tells of the Prodigal son. He gives the example of the son who wastes his inheritance and winds up living with the pigs in the slop an mire. But, when he came to himself he realized how even the servants in his father's house had it better than he did.
He repented to his father and returned willing to be a servant. His father joyfully accepted him. His father must have been looking for him because it says that he seen him while he was still afar off.
The Father today is looking for all who will come, but that person has to make the decision just as the son decided to leave the mud and slop. The father did not go and force him to leave it was the goodness of the father that was enough to bring him home.
There is a pull today from the Father but the individual still has to make a choice.
The difference was in the attitude, the son left with his inheritance thinking only about him and what he was to be given. When he returned he was willing to be a servant and how he could serve the father.
When we truly decide for ourselves to follow Christ we will view life not what we can get out of it for ourselves, but how we can serve the Father and build His kingdom as servants to Him.
Ken
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Post by logic on Jul 14, 2008 9:56:56 GMT -5
I am one who sees in the Scriptures what is commonly referred to as "The Five Points". That is, as far as I can see, the Scriptures reveal that: 1. Man hates God so much that, apart from God's effectual call, he cannot, will not, and does not come to Christ. If one "can not" they wouldn't even try. Therefore, saying "they will not" is pointless, especialy saying "they do not" However, if they literaly can not, they are excussed from obligation. They are innocent for not coming to Christ. This is the very essence of partiality, unless God uses certain un-arbitrary criteria for the descision of choosing to give His Son. There must be un-arbitrary criteria for the descision of choosing to give His Son. What are they?How can God the Holy Spirit effectually call people and still have them not able to come to sinless perfection? Salvation is a relationship with God the Father through Christ(God); explain divorce.
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Post by Brother Adiel on Jul 24, 2008 21:33:13 GMT -5
Hello everyone. I have another verse for us to discuss. Let's take a look:
I understand this to be saying that God gave Jesus authority over "all flesh", that is, every person who has ever lived, lives now, or will ever live, the whole entire race of men. And that God gave Jesus this authority with a very specific purpose. What is the purpose? The purpose for which God gave Jesus authority over every single son of Adam is so that Jesus may give eternal life to "as many as" the Father has "given Him". So here, in this verse, I see two groups of people: the "all flesh" and "as many as You have given Him". His purpose is not to give eternal life to "all flesh" (though He has absolute authority over them) but rather to give eternal life to "as many as" the Father has "given Him". I think, to connect it back to the previous verses we have discussed, that "as many as" the Father has "given Him" is the same group previously described as those who are "of God" who are also called Jesus' "sheep".
What do you guys think? How do you interpret it?
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Post by Steve Noel on Jul 26, 2008 9:29:54 GMT -5
I haven't forgot about you Adiel I've just been real busy. I hope to continue to discuss these things with you.
Steve
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Post by Brother Adiel on Jul 26, 2008 11:26:01 GMT -5
I'm glad to hear from you Steve. I hope all is well with you and your family. Grace and peace to you and yours in the name of God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ!
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Post by Brother Adiel on Aug 1, 2008 20:31:38 GMT -5
Here is another verse I've been contemplating. Anyone who would like to join in the conversation please tell us your interpretation.
I interpret this verse to mean that all those the Father gives to Jesus will definitely come to Jesus. I do not understand it to mean that all those who come to Jesus the Father will give to Him. I understand it in this order...
1. The Father gives them to Jesus... resulting in... 2. They come to Jesus 3. Jesus receives them and will not cast them out
As opposed to this order...
1. They come to Jesus 2. Jesus receives them and will not cast them.out... resulting in... 2. The Father gives them to Jesus
How do you interpret it?
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Post by logic on Aug 5, 2008 10:44:14 GMT -5
Here is another verse I've been contemplating. Anyone who would like to join in the conversation please tell us your interpretation. I interpret this verse to mean that all those the Father gives to Jesus will definitely come to Jesus. I do not understand it to mean that all those who come to Jesus the Father will give to Him. I understand it in this order... 1. The Father gives them to Jesus... resulting in... 2. They come to Jesus 3. Jesus receives them and will not cast them out As opposed to this order... 1. They come to Jesus 2. Jesus receives them and will not cast them.out... resulting in... 2. The Father gives them to Jesus How do you interpret it? Those who hear from the Father and is learning the truth, it is them who are being given to Christ(John 6:45) Man must choose to hear from the Father and not turn a deaf ear. When thay choose to hear from the Father, not turning a deaf ear, the Father will give them to His son.
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Post by Steve Noel on Aug 5, 2008 10:46:29 GMT -5
Adiel,
Could you include Chapter and Verses in your quotes please?
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Post by Steve Noel on Aug 5, 2008 10:54:36 GMT -5
Hello everyone. I have another verse for us to discuss. Let's take a look: I understand this to be saying that God gave Jesus authority over "all flesh", that is, every person who has ever lived, lives now, or will ever live, the whole entire race of men. And that God gave Jesus this authority with a very specific purpose. What is the purpose? The purpose for which God gave Jesus authority over every single son of Adam is so that Jesus may give eternal life to "as many as" the Father has "given Him". So here, in this verse, I see two groups of people: the "all flesh" and "as many as You have given Him". His purpose is not to give eternal life to "all flesh" (though He has absolute authority over them) but rather to give eternal life to "as many as" the Father has "given Him". I think, to connect it back to the previous verses we have discussed, that "as many as" the Father has "given Him" is the same group previously described as those who are "of God" who are also called Jesus' "sheep". What do you guys think? How do you interpret it? Adiel, In this passage the context of John 17 makes it clear that those whom the Father had given to Jesus were his immediate disciples. John 17:6 says, "I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word." Notice the past tense "they have kept your word". This is also made clear in the following chapter when Jesus is being betrayed in the Garden John writes, "Jesus answered, “I told you that I am he. So, if you seek me, let these men go.” This was to fulfill the word that he had spoken: “Of those whom you gave me I have lost not one.” (John 18:8-9) There's no doubt that "those whom you gave me" refers to his immediate disciples here. If you take a text out of it's context you can make it say anything. You seem to be neglecting the surrounding contexts in the passages you list. My question remains: Where in the context do you find any support that Jesus is speaking of the elect? Steve
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Post by mattmisk on Aug 5, 2008 19:14:28 GMT -5
I believe that Jesus' Gentile sheep are lost unconverted sinners whom belong to God though they are lost and God-hating, whom, at the appropriate time, when the gospel is preached to them will hear Jesus' voice and come to Him. Because they are "of God" in due time they will hear God's word, when it comes to them. I believe the Gentile sheep are those who fear God, live righteously, and have saving faith in God and Christ, yet have not entered into the New Covenant and the Kingdom of God. Not those who are sinful without regard for God. Consider: Rom 1:19 ...because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. Rom 2:6 [God,] who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: Rom 2:7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; Rom 2:8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. Rom 2:9 {There will be} tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, Rom 2:10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. Rom 2:11 For there is no partiality with God. Rom 2:12 ¶ For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; Rom 2:13 for {it is} not the hearers of the Law {who} are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. Rom 2:14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, Rom 2:15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, Rom 2:16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus. Rom 9:6 ¶ But {it is} not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are {descended} from Israel; Rom 9:7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED." Rom 9:8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants. Rom 10:17 So faith {comes} from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. Rom 10:18 ¶ But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have; "THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH, AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD." Rom 10:19 But I say, surely Israel did not know, did they? First Moses says, "I WILL MAKE YOU JEALOUS BY THAT WHICH IS NOT A NATION, BY A NATION WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING WILL I ANGER YOU." Rom 10:20 And Isaiah is very bold and says, "I WAS FOUND BY THOSE WHO DID NOT SEEK ME, I BECAME MANIFEST TO THOSE WHO DID NOT ASK FOR ME." Acts 17:24 "The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; Acts 17:25 nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all {people} life and breath and all things; Acts 17:26 and He made from one {man} every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined {their} appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, Acts 17:27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; Acts 17:28 for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.' Acts 10:1 Now {there was} a man at Caesarea named Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian cohort, Acts 10:2 a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, and gave many alms to the {Jewish} people and prayed to God continually. Acts 10:3 About the ninth hour of the day he clearly saw in a vision an angel of God who had {just} come in and said to him, "Cornelius!" Acts 10:4 And fixing his gaze on him and being much alarmed, he said, "What is it, Lord?" And he said to him, "Your prayers and alms have ascended as a memorial before God." 2 Chr 35:20 ¶ After all this, when Josiah had set the temple in order, Neco king of Egypt came up to make war at Carchemish on the Euphrates, and Josiah went out to engage him. 2 Chr 35:21 But Neco sent messengers to him, saying, "What have we to do with each other, O King of Judah? {I am} not {coming} against you today but against the house with which I am at war, and God has ordered me to hurry. Stop for your own sake from {interfering with} God who is with me, so that He will not destroy you." 2 Chr 35:22 However, Josiah would not turn away from him, but disguised himself in order to make war with him; nor did he listen to the words of Neco from the mouth of God, but came to make war on the plain of Megiddo. Dan 4:34 ¶ "But at the end of that period, I, Nebuchadnezzar, raised my eyes toward heaven and my reason returned to me, and I blessed the Most High and praised and honored Him who lives forever; For His dominion is an everlasting dominion, And His kingdom {endures} from generation to generation. Dan 4:35 "All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, But He does according to His will in the host of heaven And {among} the inhabitants of earth; And no one can ward off His hand Or say to Him, 'What have You done?' Dan 4:36 "At that time my reason returned to me. And my majesty and splendor were restored to me for the glory of my kingdom, and my counselors and my nobles began seeking me out; so I was reestablished in my sovereignty, and surpassing greatness was added to me. Dan 4:37 "Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise, exalt and honor the King of heaven, for all His works are true and His ways just, and He is able to humble those who walk in pride." Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job; and that man was blameless, upright, fearing God and turning away from evil. [And I ask, was Job a Jew? What scripture did he have? Did he know the name Jesus? He is the perfect example of what Jesus was referring to, a righteous Gentile sheep.] etc, etc. I hope this isn't too off topic, just wanted to briefly comment. Matt
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Post by Brother Adiel on Aug 7, 2008 19:16:15 GMT -5
Adiel, Could you include Chapter and Verses in your quotes please? Of course I can. Sorry about that! Grace and peace to you.
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Post by John McGlone on Aug 7, 2008 19:50:02 GMT -5
Bro A. Have you answered Bro Steve's succinct question?
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Post by Brother Adiel on Aug 7, 2008 20:02:56 GMT -5
Hello everyone. I have another verse for us to discuss. Let's take a look: I understand this to be saying that God gave Jesus authority over "all flesh", that is, every person who has ever lived, lives now, or will ever live, the whole entire race of men. And that God gave Jesus this authority with a very specific purpose. What is the purpose? The purpose for which God gave Jesus authority over every single son of Adam is so that Jesus may give eternal life to "as many as" the Father has "given Him". So here, in this verse, I see two groups of people: the "all flesh" and "as many as You have given Him". His purpose is not to give eternal life to "all flesh" (though He has absolute authority over them) but rather to give eternal life to "as many as" the Father has "given Him". I think, to connect it back to the previous verses we have discussed, that "as many as" the Father has "given Him" is the same group previously described as those who are "of God" who are also called Jesus' "sheep". What do you guys think? How do you interpret it? Once again, grace and peace to you. Isn't God good?! Even if Jesus, in His prayer to the Father, was only referring to His immediate disciples I don't see the passage being interpreted any differently. The Father gave Jesus "authority over all flesh" so that He might give eternal life to as many as the Father has given Him (as opposed to all flesh). But OK, this is the reason why I believe that Jesus was not interceding for the whole entire world yet at the same time He was also not interceding exclusively for His immediate disciples... Throughout our Lord's High Priestly prayer He continuously makes a sharp distinction between "the world" and those whom He is praying for. Right? When He says "the world" I take that to mean "all flesh" that is every single human being who has ever lived, lives now, or will ever live. Regarding all flesh, that is "the world" He specifically says that He is not praying for. He says it clearly, "I do not pray for the world". But who is He praying for? He is praying for "them" whom the Father gave Him "out of the world". But who are "them"? Are "them" exclusively His immediate disciples? This is why I do not believe "them" is referring exclusively to Jesus' immediate disciples... I take this to mean that our great High Priest's intercessory prayer is not only for or about His immediate disciples but includes a certain group of people who "will" [definitely] believe in Him through their word (believers throughout the ages). I believe that these people who "will" believe in Him are the same people previously referred to as Jesus' sheep (though many of them were at that time of a different fold (Gentiles) who knew not God or had even heard the Gospel) who are also referred to as those who are "of God", who "hear God's word" that is they will hear and obey their Shepherd's voice and follow Him. In other words I believe He is referring to this group of people: All those whom the Father gives to the Son "will" come to the Son for salvation. Not the other way around. Jesus did not say "All that come to Me will be given to Me by My Father". Instead He said, "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me". And those that come to Him He does not cast out because these are them for whom the Father has given Jesus authority over all flesh (the world) that He might give eternal life to. What do you think Steve? Brother McGlone?
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Post by Brother Adiel on Aug 9, 2008 22:50:34 GMT -5
I believe that Jesus' Gentile sheep are lost unconverted sinners whom belong to God though they are lost and God-hating, whom, at the appropriate time, when the gospel is preached to them will hear Jesus' voice and come to Him. Because they are "of God" in due time they will hear God's word, when it comes to them. I believe the Gentile sheep are those who fear God, live righteously, and have saving faith in God and Christ, yet have not entered into the New Covenant and the Kingdom of God. Not those who are sinful without regard for God. So you are saying that when Jesus mentioned having sheep of another fold He was not at all referring to those who were to become the Corinthian church? You know, those idolaters, homosexuals, drunkards and adulterers who through the preaching of the Gospel heard Jesus' voice and followed Him?
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Post by mattmisk on Aug 10, 2008 7:32:12 GMT -5
I believe the Gentile sheep are those who fear God, live righteously, and have saving faith in God and Christ, yet have not entered into the New Covenant and the Kingdom of God. Not those who are sinful without regard for God. So you are saying that when Jesus mentioned having sheep of another fold He was not at all referring to those who were to become the Corinthian church? You know, those idolaters, homosexuals, drunkards and adulterers who through the preaching of the Gospel heard Jesus' voice and followed Him? Yes, that is what I'm saying. Only those who follow his voice are his sheep - and those living in the sins you mentioned are clearly not following his voice. Matt
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