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Post by jackjackson on Jul 25, 2008 17:31:54 GMT -5
Remember how a man like Bill Clinton tried o argue what "is" meant to try and say he died lie? He spin word to try and keep himself from being guilty.
How about the word is in the following passage since it is nearly night fall this Friday:
Six days shall ork be done; but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest a holy convocation; ye shall do no work; it is the sabbath of the Lord in all your dwelling. Leviticus 23:3
Now does that word is mean anything in relation to the seventh day which is a definite article? Is one to assume this is changeable? When written in Exodos 20 with the 10 Commandments, I remember God wrote it in stone didn't He?
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Post by Josh Parsley on Jul 25, 2008 20:04:18 GMT -5
Jack, do you believe that a person must be circumcised too? Gen 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. Gen 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
Exo 12:48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.
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Post by logic on Jul 25, 2008 22:17:32 GMT -5
Remember how a man like Bill Clinton tried o argue what "is" meant to try and say he died lie? He spin word to try and keep himself from being guilty. How about the word is in the following passage since it is nearly night fall this Friday: Six days shall work be done; but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest a holy convocation; ye shall do no work; it is the sabbath of the Lord in all your dwelling. Leviticus 23:3 Now does that word is mean anything in relation to the seventh day which is a definite article? Is one to assume this is changeable? When written in Exodos 20 with the 10 Commandments, I remember God wrote it in stone didn't He? Jesus is our Sabath! The Old Testement Doctrine is still valad today, but the practises are are all complete "in Christ". The New Testment Apostles have taught us from the Old Testement. However, the Old Coventent has passed away and all it's practices(not law) to let the new Covenent in. Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. Heb 8:13 In that he says, A new covenant, he has made the first old. Now that which decays and grows old is ready to vanish away. Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do your will, O God. He takes away the first, that he may establish the second. Heb 4:3a For we who have believed do enter into rest... Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also has ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
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Post by pete777 on Jul 26, 2008 1:24:56 GMT -5
Logic,
The fault was not with the OLD COVENANT! That is a false notion. God did not design something with fault! The fault was with the people!!! They did not have FAITH!!!!
Heb 8:7-8
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them , he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: KJV
The Ten Commandment law of God does NOT HAVE FAULT!! The problem is with the people not having FAITH! This is why the OLD COVENANT is made NEW by Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ fulfilled the animal sacrifices of the OLD and now gives greater light on how to have faith (which unlocks grace/power) so we can perfectly obey the Ten Commandments on God's provided power!
JOHN 14:15-16! Read this text! If you love = keep commandments
THEN THERE IS A PROMISE OF THE GIFT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT TO GIVE POWER TO OBEY THE COMMANDMENTS!!!!!!! Obedience to MORAL law is the GOSPEL!!! It is the PLAN OF REDEMPTION!
Heb 4:4-6
4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: KJV
WHY DID THE JEWS NOT KEEP THE SABBATH??? UNBELIEF, which is the same word in GREEK as FAITH!! They had no faith!!! Therefore by simple LOGIC we can see that the SABBATH is binding in the NEW COVENANT. Jack is confused with a lot of his Torah ideas, but the Sabbath of the Law of God is binding, the sabbaths of the laws of Moses are NOT! They are shadowy types that point forward to Christ. But the Ten Commandment LAW, the 4th command being the SABBATH is not a shadow or a type. It was given before SIN! IT was in effect in Edenic perfection as a MORAL DUTY OF LOVE TO THE CREATOR!!!!!!! Gen 2:1-3.
The NEW COVENANT HAS MORAL LAW!!!!! JUST READ BELOW AND SEE FOR YOURSELF!!!
Hebrews 8:10
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: KJV
GOD WILL PUT HIS LAWS (moral law of the Ten Commandments) into our CHARACTERS!! BY FAITH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The Sabbath included!
Matthew
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Post by Josh Parsley on Jul 30, 2008 21:45:38 GMT -5
Jack, do you believe that a person must be circumcised too? Gen 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. Gen 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
Exo 12:48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof. I'm still curious about this. I just ask because a few people I've ran into believe that if you are a man and really love God you have to be circumcised, because you can't take the passover without it.
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Post by jackjackson on Jul 31, 2008 13:22:41 GMT -5
Josh:
If God told you to be circumcised, and your were not, would you do it for Him?
It really doesn't matter what I say. It becomes a matter of whether God says it or man says it.
That being established, read the Bible and do as God says, not what man teaches He says.
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Post by jackjackson on Jul 31, 2008 14:03:51 GMT -5
Josh:
Also, why do you think Paul encouraged Timothy to be circumcised after the Acts 15 Council, for a deceptive reason which would have been sin? Certainly it wasn't a matter of Timothy's salvation, but it wasn't deception either?
Submitting to circumcision to be saved, would transfer your belief to the circumcision.
Do we quit lying to be saved, or account of our love to God? If I placed my faith in my ability to stop all sin, I take my eye off Jesus. But because of that I don't stop obeying now do I?
If the act of getting circumcised becomes a means of salvation, rather than act of obedience once saved, like any other command of God we miss the mark.
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Post by jackjackson on Jul 31, 2008 14:07:01 GMT -5
I might ask anyone here why they stopped disobeying sin, and started to obey God. Was it because you wanted to be accepted by God, or because you realized He did accept you and you wanted to know love and obey Him?
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Post by John McGlone on Jul 31, 2008 14:16:42 GMT -5
I stopped sinning because I am responding to His love demonstrated at the cross. Because of His love for me, the just dying for the unjust that is why I respond with obedience to His commands that are no longer greivesome to me. For His glory, for His honor, He is worthy of that and so much more.
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Post by John McGlone on Jul 31, 2008 14:34:06 GMT -5
Jack are you Jewish?
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Post by joemccowan on Jul 31, 2008 14:39:46 GMT -5
It appears in some of these threads that a call is being made to become messianic proselytes. I don't think you can blame this type of appeal on Paul. This is exactly the type of thing that Paul fought against. Placing yourself in a covenant that God never established with you, as though it were somehow superior to the new covenant, is a big mistake.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Jul 31, 2008 19:10:30 GMT -5
Josh: If God told you to be circumcised, and your were not, would you do it for Him? It really doesn't matter what I say. It becomes a matter of whether God says it or man says it. That being established, read the Bible and do as God says, not what man teaches He says. Of course I would. The question isn't whether I or anyone else on the board would do something if God told us to, the question is has God told us to? I'm guessing you do believe that a man needs to be circumcised? I can't really tell for sure from your answer.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Jul 31, 2008 19:29:35 GMT -5
\ As you know, Paul did more than encourage him to be circumcised. Paul, himself, circumcised Timothy. There isn't really any speculation as to why Paul did it, the scriptures tell us. Act 16:3 Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek. Act 16:4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem. He did it because of the Jews. Not because he felt that he needed to be circumcised to obey God's command to take the passover. I believe these scriptures outline the spirit in which Paul did this. We know that Paul didn't believe God commanded men to be circumcised from several other passages. 1Co 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; 1Co 9:21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. 1Co 9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. I believe Timothy went through this so he could minister to Jews with Paul. There is no reason to be an offense when you don't need to be. There is nothing wrong with being circumcised or doing some other act so you can minister to a certain type of people. If he wasn't circumcised it might have caused needless problems. So, did God want Timothy to be circumcised? Possibly, maybe even probably. But not to keep the passover, not to keep the law, or any other reason than "because of the Jews." Jack, can you tell me how Paul could be like one who wasn't under the law when with the gentiles if Paul kept the law? It seems impossible to me to be "as without law" and yet keep all the things of the law. Offerings... Paul even partook of that too, right? Act 21:26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them. Act 21:27 And when the seven days were almost ended, the Jews which were of Asia, when they saw him in the temple, stirred up all the people, and laid hands on him,
Jack, does this mean that there are times in the Christian life we need to make offerings like the law commands?
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Post by jackjackson on Aug 1, 2008 16:48:20 GMT -5
What I am saying Josh is that we all respnd to God in obedience, not to make ourselves saved.
I was a saved Sunday worshipping, bacon eating, shrimp eating, Christmas and Easter kinda of believers until I was confronted with truth which made me question if I had inherited lies (Jer. 16:19).
I realized that Friday night to Saturday night is God's sabbath. I had preached 10 Commandments to show a person their sin.......and realized I was absolutely not remembering the sabbath day. I could no longer argue that somehow the church moved it, because God set the day in stone tablets.
Realizing that the Church at large had go astray by simply trying to keep Sunday holy, I wondered how many other things I thought they had right could be wrong.
I immediately started to remember the sabbath, to keep it holy and was blessed by it. I believe because I didn't reject that truth, God started to correct other doctrine I had been taught.
Consider this! If you didn't know anything about what day to to keep holy nd have a holy convocation on, and you read the Bible the new believers had at the time of the Apostles *which was only an OT" and heard Paul teach every sabbath, what day would you think to keep holy?
If you hung around Jesus and He and His Apostles did not eat unclean meats, what type of meats would have eaten if you were with them.
Maybe this is just too simple, but those who hung around with a guy who was keeping Torah perfectly for three and a half years, and were disciples trying to be just like their Master, probably never got the idea from Jesus that keeping Torah was wrong. They knew they couldn't keep it perfectly but it never kept them from trying.
John:
Am I Jewish? Is a pig Kosher? John, I am a Gentile believer, grafted into the commonwealth of Israel, just like one called "ger" Strong's #1616 was grafted in though not among blood relatives.
Are you Abraham's son? I am, and hope all you that believe in Jesus see yourselves not a separate group, but as grafted into the Commonwealth of Israel.
Not all of Israel are of Israel, you know!
I have been studying the Torah for almost a year now in a weekly reading schedule with all of Israel and most who call themselves Messianic. Just as Paul gave his testimony of being of the sect of Isreal that believed in Jesus, I believe this sect was the first Church that Jesus left with the Apostles. It was a sect of Judaism to be sure.
It is a real shame that the Church, which a Judaism with one new man of Jews and Gentiles, so quickly split up leaving us with such a mess today.
If you study this history you can see that Judaism carry many of the traditions that Jesus would have practiced, but missed the Messiah. Christianity in most circles today, possibly out of wanting to distance themselves from Jews to avoid persectution and because many carried antisemitism also distanced themselves from Judaism so far they also went too far, mixing in paganism that Jesus wouldn't tolerate if He was here in the flesh. Scripture shows when He comes He will bring back written Torah, but not all oral law. We know freom Ezk 40 - 49 that we will have Priests, sacrifices, sabbaths, and times which will require all to come to Jerusalem. Is. 66:23-24 tells us we will all worship before Him on Sabbath to Sabbath and new moons.
BTW: Tonight is Rosh Kodesh, or the New Moon. Jesus observed it, do any of you who want to walk just as He walked? For that matter sundown tonight is Shabbat, are any of you planning on keeping it holy as Jesus did? It is a time to remember all of creation was completed in 6 days, awesome! It also is an appointed time of God (Lev. 23) His, not the Jew's Sabbath.
Lastly, as far as sacrifices goes, no one can offer an animal sacrifice until a true High Priest comes again to annoint the Son's of Zadok; but that does proclude us from learning from Daniel. Daniel shows how God accepted the "bulls of His lips" while the sacrifices had stopped. The morning and evening oblations were "corporate" sacrifices, paid for by contributions of all. All of Israel and the strangers ("ger") either prayed at these set times, or were part of those set times in Israel. Jesus and all His disciples would have participated. The end of the Gospels and Acts show that the discuples continued in these set times. Amazingly Jesus was nailed to the cross at the morning oblation, and died at the evening one, giving those of us who still pray at these times even more to thank God for as we see Jesus in this as well.
I have set time, as well as spontaneous prayer, just as the disciples would have.
I have been trying to study and them adopt what the first disciples would have done with Jesus and the Apostles. This has caused me to be Torah submissive, because I love the Lord and want to experience the fullness of what I would have if I was a disciple at that first decade church. It has been an amazing experience in which I believe I have grown much in Christ and am better prepared for what the Bible says is coming.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Aug 1, 2008 18:03:21 GMT -5
Jack, Do you have comments on my last post? You don't have to reply. I really want you to rethink what you are teaching. I have some more questions. Looking at the way you interpret how the law should be applied today, I really think it causes major problems for you. Isn't the Levitical priesthood eternal? Do you believe we should have a temple with preists? If you say no, are you changing the law? Exo 40:13 And thou shalt put upon Aaron the holy garments, and anoint him, and sanctify him; that he may minister unto me in the priest's office. Exo 40:14 And thou shalt bring his sons, and clothe them with coats: Exo 40:15 And thou shalt anoint them, as thou didst anoint their father, that they may minister unto me in the priest's office: for their anointing shall surely be an everlasting priesthood throughout their generations.
Num 25:11 Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, hath turned my wrath away from the children of Israel, while he was zealous for my sake among them, that I consumed not the children of Israel in my jealousy. Num 25:12 Wherefore say, Behold, I give unto him my covenant of peace: Num 25:13 And he shall have it, and his seed after him, even the covenant of an everlasting priesthood; because he was zealous for his God, and made an atonement for the children of Israel. Jack, what does the law say here? If the law isn't fulfilled by Christ, why don't we have priests? The law says we should. Lev 16:34 And this shall be an everlasting statute unto you, to make an atonement for the children of Israel for all their sins once a year. And he did as the LORD commanded Moses. The law says that the atonement being made once a year is an everlasting statue. Are you making void the law by saying we don't have to have a yearly day of atonement? Are you changing a letter of the law by saying Jesus fulfilled it? If you believe we need to keep the law, you have to deal with these questions. They won't go away. Does everlasting mean everlasting? Does eternal mean eternal? Or is it a matter of interpreting the text in light of Jesus Christ and the New Covenant? 1Ti 1:6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; 1Ti 1:7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
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Post by jackjackson on Aug 4, 2008 13:41:02 GMT -5
Josh:
Look to Ezk Chapters 40 -49 and you will see that Jesus is the One who will bring back the Son's of Zadok to Minister for Him as High Priest.
It certainly goes against what we have been taught, doesn't it?
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Post by jackjackson on Aug 4, 2008 13:52:44 GMT -5
Jesus fulfilling the law doesn't do away with it. If that were the case why didn't Jesus tell His disciples to top going to Temple for morning and evening oblations, which John, Peter, James and others still did after Jesus' death?
We all teach a version of the laws we think are still in affect to keep don't we?
Some teach two great commands (Deut 6), some teach 10 (Exodus 20), and other teach that not one or tittle should have passed away, as Jesus taught, until heaven and earth pass away.
Jesus still has several prophesies to fulfill doesn't He? Doesn't He have to return for one? All is not fulfilled yet, but we have hope it all will. Prophesy will come true, no matter what the church thinks, and Torah will go out to all the world (Is 2) and all flesh will worship before Jesus on His new moons and His sabbaths.
Could it be possible you might need to see by prophesy what will be, and re-think your position? he law (nomos = torah) is good and holy and just; and is established by faith, not made void.
Remember that Peter tells us that Paul is hard to understand, maybe we should re-examine what the popular understanding is, do you suppose?
Consider going to FFOZ.org and reading some articles.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Aug 4, 2008 20:33:16 GMT -5
It doesn't seem you are really interacting with my posts. I will just leave it for now.
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Post by jackjackson on Aug 14, 2008 12:33:45 GMT -5
Sorry Josh, I have been away from the Boards for a while.
Yes! Jesus kept, or fulfilled the observance of the commands of Torah perfectly. He did not trangress the law, therefore had no sin, because sin is the transgression of the law/torah.
Jesus taught not all by word, but also in deed. He didn't have a false obedience to Torah, one that only had in mind doing away with it, or else He sinned. If He did not delight in Sabbath, that is delighted in it, He sinned. The same goes for all the Torah.
In doing do, He rendered His blood to be an atonement for sin, which was the plan all along.
Jesus is High Priest, but the priesthood (Ezk 40-49) will be re-established by Jesus when He returns. Some speculate this will because death will be rare and seeing animal sacrifices will remind us that sin results in death.
All we know is what the Bible says is coming, so shouldn't we be ready for it?
We think of NT = New Covenant, but know that the new covenant is having a new heart, one that isn't opposed to God's ways. A read of Deut. 6:6 shows that this is what God asked Moses to tell the people also. The key element to how long they would stay in the land, after they came into would be dependant on how long they remained obedience to God's ways and statutes. The Book of Deut. gives the history of the disobient fathers, a prophesy for a future dispersion of God's people, and a way to push that out in time: namely that it would not happen until they turned from the Lord.
I think the same applies to believers today, who will remain saved (not once saved always saved) "if" they walk in God's ways today.
Grace was that God gave them a system that offerred a way of salvation without having to be sinless. The fact that God gave sacrifcial system to them was a form of grace, always pointing to the ultimate sacrifice which was the one that could really save eternally. Just as they had to confess sin and get it covered to be forgiven, so we also still do today.
The sacrificial system is a way of seeing God's redemption and forgiveness system. It is not contray to His system, it allows one to understand it better. The Torah shows us the same character of God we see in the New Testament writings, and since God never changes, how can those things which are His; like His holy day sabbath, His festivals and feasts, or His laws and statutes and judgenents?
Note that as we read Ezk 40-49, we see we will all be required to come to Jerusalem on various of "His" holidays, the same ones we got rid of for pagan ones that were blended in. Those who show up for His services on Sundays, will be late by a day, because the Holy convocations will be in Shabbot (Sabbath).
This post started out proclaiming Friday evening through Saturday evening as the Lord's Sabbath.
I have found that unless a person submits to God's sabbath, they will not submit to His Torah. It amazes me how obvious the Sabbath issue is yet some stay closed minded and defiant to God's command to "remember it" even when the command is so plain. And all the time they do so, they claim they follow Jesus, who demonstarted by His life that He delighted in Sabbbaths.
How is it that His disciples don't delight in that which the Master delighted in?
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