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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 12, 2008 17:38:43 GMT -5
In the world of a Calvinist, God does not want everyone to be saved. In fact, God wants very few (the elect) to be saved, but God wants most to continue sinning and go to hell. Many are on the broad road because God wants them to be, and few are on the narrow road because God wants it to be that way (in Calvinism).
So as Christians, should we want everyone to repent and be saved (in the world of Calvinism)? Would it be ungodly for us to want this, since God (in Calvinism) does not want this? Should we want most of the world to continue in their sin and go to hell, and only want a few sinners to repent and believe the Gospel?
And did the Apostle Paul really want everyone to be saved?
"Him we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we might present every man perfect in Christ Jesus." Col. 1:28
And why does God call all men everywhere to repent?
"God commands all men everywhere to repent" Acts 17:30
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Post by Kerrigan on Aug 12, 2008 18:49:14 GMT -5
Shhhh! Jesse, God not wanting everyone to be saved is His "secret will." If you go around telling everyone about it, it won't be a secret anymore. Don't you know this? I mean, come on Jesse, don't you read your Bible? All doesn't mean all, it means many. And many doesn't mean many, it means all...well at least those words mean that when it is convenient to my theology. World doesn't mean world either, it just means the "elect world". And God only wants all "kinds" of people to repent. I know, I know, I'm adding to Scripture, but I have to in order for it to all work... ;D
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Post by John McGlone on Aug 12, 2008 21:38:55 GMT -5
Yes we should want to see everyone saved. Our Living and loving God has that heart from the beginning.
God does not desire the destruction of the wicked but that he turn from his wickedness and live.
I suppose that means he should live holy.
But, if he lived holy he would stop sinning.
If he has trusted Jesus he would stop sinning then he would be a saint by the grace of God.
If he were a saint then God would see his death as precious
If God felt that way then surely he would go to heaven
But, where will the sinner and ungodly go?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 13, 2008 11:37:25 GMT -5
There is always lots of silence from the Calvinists when these issues come up on the boards......
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djpray
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Post by djpray on Aug 13, 2008 16:34:31 GMT -5
It could possibly be that the Calvinists on the board are so busy sharing the Word of God with the lost and even sacrificing their time and lives in order to make sure that "the elect obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus". Because of this they don't have time to enter into theological debate with other Christians. Just a possibility II Timothy 2:10 - Therefore I do everything for the sake of the elect that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory. Derek
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 13, 2008 16:47:12 GMT -5
I thought that Calvinistic monergism taught that God does everything?
Synergism says that preaching the truth is involved in salvation.
Do preachers have a role in a persons conversion? Or does God do everything?
Calvinists seem to be prone to reason that if preachers are involved, then preachers should get the glory.
1Co 4:15 - For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
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Post by joeldad on Aug 13, 2008 16:48:30 GMT -5
to make sure that "the elect obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus". How could the elect NOT obtain salvation if they were predestined to be elect? You didn't answer Jesse's question, by the way.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 13, 2008 16:52:00 GMT -5
That's true. We only have a few options:
1. Christians should want everyone to repent and be saved 2. Christians should want few to repent and be saved, and most to continue sinning and go to hell.
Does God want many to be on the broad road and few to be on the narrow road? Does God want most people to remain impenitent and unbelieving?
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Post by Brother Adiel on Aug 13, 2008 18:25:38 GMT -5
At that time Jesus answered and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes. 26 Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. 27 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. Matthew 11
“I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. 8 For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me. 9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them John 17
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 13, 2008 19:50:13 GMT -5
John 17 is talking about the Apostles and does not really relate to this discussion.
It is like when Calvinists use this Scripture:
Joh 15:16 - "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you"
This is talking about the disciples and their Apostleship. Jesus handpicked certain men to be his personal disciples after praying all night. This scripture does not apply to all Christians and it is not talking about salvation.
Calvinism thrives off taking Scriptures out of context and twisting their meaning.
But nobody has yet answered my question: Should Christians want everyone to repent and believe? Is that included in "love thy neighbor as thyself". And if that is what a Christian wants, does that meant they do not want the will of God, since God wants most men to keep sinning and go to hell?
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djpray
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"Filipino" Preacher Man!
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Post by djpray on Aug 13, 2008 21:22:54 GMT -5
Jesse, You wrote: "I thought that Calvinistic monergism taught that God does everything? Synergism says that preaching the truth is involved in salvation. Do preachers have a role in a persons conversion? Or does God do everything?" You need to re-read some of the Calvinistic literature that you have been reading Monergism teaches that God does everything and He uses human means and instruments to accomplish His purposes (ie the doing of this everything). So, of course, preaching the truth is involved in salvation and of course, preachers have a role in a person's conversion. They are simply instruments that God uses to bring about the conversion of sinners. It is God at work through the means of the proclamation of the Gospel. God doesn't just "zap" people with the Gospel. He works through the use of preaching and other similiar means. Derek
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djpray
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Post by djpray on Aug 13, 2008 22:06:35 GMT -5
Jesse, I use myself as an example and this might not be speaking for others on the board that come from a "doctrines of grace" perspective. Of course I want everyone to be saved. Almost everyday I go around our community here in the Philippines, praying and crying out to God for the salvation of the lost. This very morning I spent an hour on the streets, walking up and down, crying out for the souls of the lost. Not only do I pray for the lost to be saved, but me and others in our church and mission proclaim the Gospel anywhere and everywhere to everyone. I train others to do the same thing. In fact, sometimes my biggest regret is that I am not able to stay out on the streets 12 hours a day, everyday, proclaiming the Gospel. Even this very moment I am trying to arrange my ministry schedule better to enable me to have more time sharing the Gospel on the streets. Yes, I want to see them all saved....every single one of the 600,000 people that live in our community and even the millions that live beyond our community. At the same time I realize that a majority of people here have chosen to reject the Gospel. They refuse to repent and believe. They love their sin more than they love God and refuse the free offer of the Gospel. And they are 100 percent responsible for their actions and decisions. It is their fault, not God's fault if they are lost and go to hell. God doesn't "want most to keep on sinning and go to hell." If people go to hell, they have no one to blame except themselves. But, out amongst this mass of rebellious, God-hating, sin loving people, there are some folks that will believe. There are people that God, in His rich mercy, will bring into His Kingdom - they will repent and believe - they will come to saving faith in Christ - they will turn from their sins. It is their responsibility to do that. It is their responsibility to believe. God doesn't "believe" for them. He doesn't repent for them. Yet, in the end, these chosen will realize that the whole time it was God at work in them...causing them to believe. They will see that their salvation was 100 percent the work of God. I don't understand all of God's purposes and plans. I believe the Scriptures teach that God has a system set up wherein He can predestinate things.....yet where-in man is still 100 percent responsible for his actions. Some of you may think that is foolish but many men of God have believed those truths throughout the years. Also there are men on this board "better than me" at explaining these things or explaining the "doctrines of grace" perspective. I will let them handle most of the "reasoning" with Jesse, RevK, John and others. And then there have been a multitude of books put out on this subject. They are available for those who want to study more. Anyway, it is time to preach! And my prayers go out on behalf of Jesse, RevK, John, Paul and anyone else here that I see who proclaims the Word of God in the public areas. There is still a massive shortage of public preachers in America, the Philippines and around the world. Go forth friends and proclaim Jesus to the lost and dying wherever they may be! Derek
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kenm
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Post by kenm on Aug 13, 2008 22:33:57 GMT -5
I do not think you will find anyone that professes to be a Christian on this board disputing Grace. That is not the issue stated in the original post. By the way, no one with Calvinist views have answered the question.
So as Christians, should we want everyone to repent and be saved (in the world of Calvinism)? Would it be ungodly for us to want this, since God (in Calvinism) does not want this? Should we want most of the world to continue in their sin and go to hell, and only want a few sinners to repent and believe the Gospel?
You stated above what you want, and that is for every one to be saved ,and bless you for preaching the gospel, but you still have not answered it based on the Calvinist doctrine you were so quick to protect.
If you think about Jesse's question from the Calvinist's Doctrine of the elect then your answer given is contrary to the doctrine that you are defending. Which is the very reason for the post, to make you think about you doctrinal stance and whether it is Biblical or not.
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djpray
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Post by djpray on Aug 14, 2008 3:45:23 GMT -5
Jesse wrote: "God wants most to continue sinning and go to hell. Many are on the broad road because God wants them to be," and assumes that to be the Calvinistic view of God. Jesse can you provide one quote from any reputable Calvinistic writer, pastor or theologian which supports that idea - that "God wants most to continue sinning and go to hell." As for Kenm - First off "doctrines of grace" is a common term used for Calvinistic beliefs. For instance the magazine "Free Grace Broadcaster" produced by Mount Zion Bible Church...A Calvinistic church. Here is their web site....an excellent source of materials on the doctrines of grace: www.mountzion.org Anyway I prefer the term "doctrines of grace much more than the term Calvinism. Those from the Calvinistic thought, see the issue as being an issue of the grace of God. So the Calvinist would say that we are disputing grace here and what the real meaning of grace is. But, hey that is another topic. Also I believe I have answered the question. The Calvinistic position sees two things as being concurrent realities....God's total sovereignty (which includes predestination) and man's total responsibility. God commands people to repent and wants people to repent. Hence I command people to repent and want people to repent. Nevertheless God has also chosen some for salvation and bypassed on others. How does it all match up? I don't know Ask James White. He might can help you. There are thousands of resources out there to be read on this subject. Many of these answer very clearly the questions often brought up by Jesse and others...but that is not likely to change the way you think about this issue....neither are a few questions and points from Jesse or others...likely to change the way I think. But who knows....maybe God has destined one or more of us to change Derek
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kenm
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Post by kenm on Aug 14, 2008 8:19:01 GMT -5
I appreciate where you are coming from and I am thankful you are preaching repentance, but if God has already predestined some to be saved or repent than why are you out there. God has already chosen who will or will not be saved.
It is because people have a free will to choose to repent and come to God, that is why you are on the street and preaching. There would be no reason to preach if it is already predestined.
I am going to Charlotte tonight, if I believed salvation was already predestined I could just stay at home but I do not. So I am going to share the gospel with those who may have never heard and to those who have heard but are living in sin.
They have the choice to accept God's Word and repent or reject God's Word and run the risk of dying and going to hell.
It is because they have this choice that any one goes and shares the gospel, because we have a burden for the lost that are dying and going to hell everyday when they can repent and be saved.
God does not send any one to hell they send themselves when they reject Jesus. If God chooses some and predestines other to go to hell than that contradicts your statement above that God wants everyone to repent.
If He wants everyone to repent than how could He predestine some to go to hell?
The fact that God does want everyone to repent is the very reason why we have free will to choose. As long as a person is alive they can repent and come to Jesus Christ.
In Christ's Love
Ken
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 14, 2008 8:53:12 GMT -5
I greatly appreciate the ministry that you do. We need more Christians out there who will do what you are doing.
Keep up the good work!
Does God want everyone to be saved?
And if not, are you more loving than God?
And if God does not want everyone to be saved, why do you want everyone to be saved? Shouldn't you align your will with God's will?
Do they have the ability, or free will power, to accept the Gospel?
If not, how can they be required to accept the Gospel, and how can they be accountable for rejecting the Gospel?
Wouldn't that be like taking a man to court for being born cripple, and then sending him to jail because he has "chosen" not to walk?
Again, if they have no free will, how can they be responsible and accountable for their actions?
If sin is necessitated by their sinful nature which they inherit at birth, sin is not their fault at all anymore than the color of their skin is their own fault.
And if they do not have the ability to turn from their sins and believe the Gospel, it is not their fault if they do not do so.
Do sinners have a free will? My understanding of Calvinism is that it says no.
Can God give all sinners a free will? My understanding of Calvinism is that it says yes.
Does God give all sinners a free will? My understanding of Calvinism is that it says no.
That is why it would be God's fault, and not the sinners fault, if they continue to sin and go to hell. If they fail to repent and believe it is not their fault because it was not in their power to do so. If they fail to repent and believe, it is God's fault, because God could have given them the ability to do so but He didn't.
If something happens that God doesn't want, doesn't that mean He is not "Sovereign" in the Calvinistic sense? Doesn't "Sovereignty" in Calvinism mean that God gets everything that He wants? That everything that happens is His will?
If everything that happens is God's will, then it is God's will that most are on the broad road, and it is God's will that only few are on the narrow road. If most continue sinning and go to hell, it is because God wants it to be that way.
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Post by jackjackson on Aug 14, 2008 12:38:56 GMT -5
I wrote an artical called "Who is the Enemy", which can be found on my web site.
In the article I thought of how we go to battle for souls, battling an enemy keeping them from seeing the light. 2 Cor 4:3 tells us that enemy is the god of this world (Satan), not our God (big G).
So who would be the real enemy we fight in the spiritual realm, if God doesn't actually want all saved?
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Post by logic on Aug 14, 2008 14:11:55 GMT -5
It could possibly be that the Calvinists on the board are so busy sharing the Word of God with the lost and even sacrificing their time and lives in order to make sure that "the elect obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus"... Why bother preaching if they are elect anyway. They will obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus no matter what. How is it that you are making sure that the elect obtain the salvation, you can't do that? I don't get it. What do you think your doing when you preach? Your not persuading anybody. Your not giving or bring faith to any one, for that is God's jod to give to only the lucky ones who've one the lotto of the elect. Fact is, in Calvins theology/doctrine, preaching is fruitless.
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Post by logic on Aug 14, 2008 14:14:59 GMT -5
But nobody has yet answered my question: Should Christians want everyone to repent and believe? No, We must be Christ like IOW, God like. God does not want all mankind to be saved, we shouldn't eather. [glow=red,2,300]If you want everyone to repent and believe, that would be ungodly.[/glow] That is, according to how Calvinists explain/describe God.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 14, 2008 15:41:36 GMT -5
Great question!
Satan wants to destroy mankind, and in Calvinism, God is helping Him do it!
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Post by Evan Schaible on Aug 14, 2008 16:09:39 GMT -5
I like this phrase:
Salvation: Present and free, full and for all.
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Post by Brother Adiel on Aug 14, 2008 22:57:40 GMT -5
Grace and peace.
I miss being able to spend time discussing these things and look forward to a better opportunity soon but for now here are some thoughts on what I see the Bible saying regarding this issue...
EDIT: Sorry guys. I wrote my reply in a hasty fashion which didn't sit well with me so I removed it. Hopefully later when I get a little more time I will be able to contribute to the discussion. Good night!
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Post by Brother Adiel on Aug 16, 2008 9:46:12 GMT -5
Good morning, John 17 is talking about the Apostles and does not really relate to this discussion. In John 17 the Great Hight Priest is interceding exclusively for believers throughout the ages. I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. John 17:9I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; John 17:20And it is totally relevant because therein Jesus clearly reveals whom the Father has purposed Him to give eternal life to: Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17:1-31. The Father gave Jesus authority over all flesh ie every person who has ever lived, lives now, or will ever live 2. What is the reason that the Father gave Jesus this authority? For what purpose? "that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him." 3. And what is this eternal life that the Son is to give those whom the Father has given Him? The knowledge of the one true God and Jesus Christ whom He sent. His purpose was to give them something they did not yet have: eternal life ie the knowledge of the one true God and Jesus Christ whom He sent. You are mistaken Jesse. The Lord Jesus Christ did not say: "Ye have not chosen to be part of the twelve. Yes. It is true that ye have chosen to be My disciples however ye have not chosen to be 'the Apostles'. I have chosen ye to be the Apostles." He does say: " Ye have not chosen ME, but I have chosen you" Truly, it does not get any clearer than that. I'll answer your main question a little later when the Lord grants me the opportunity. God bless you.
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Post by Brother Adiel on Aug 16, 2008 12:27:20 GMT -5
Hi Jesse,
As I was about to attempt to answer your main question I noticed that djpray has already done so. He has explained to you what the Scriptures clearly teach on the subject. Whether you want to accept it or not is a different subject altogether.
The only thing that I will add is that of course those who accept the biblical teaching on conversion want all men to be saved. So much so that we rejoice in the God who, although men hate Him and have made their choice to reject Him crystal clear, doesn't bow the knee to man's 'free-will choice', but rather has sent His Spirit to supernaturally transform sinners' hearts, changing them from lovers of darkness and haters of light to those who, for joy over Jesus, sell all that they have, deny themselves, take up their crosses and follow Him. In other words, God desires that all men everywhere love and treasure Him. All men everywhere have instead loved the darkness and hated Him. Yet instead of God bowing the knee to their rebellion and granting them all their heart's desire, eternal death and hell, it has pleased Him to save some anyway (and for this we are thankful and glorify Him). But He does not do it by 'zapping' them.
God bless you.
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Post by Paul A. Kaiser on Aug 19, 2008 3:27:39 GMT -5
That's true. We only have a few options: 1. Christians should want everyone to repent and be saved 2. Christians should want few to repent and be saved, and most to continue sinning and go to hell. Does God want many to be on the broad road and few to be on the narrow road? Does God want most people to remain impenitent and unbelieving? I would say the fact that the question poses a problem for many is because it is a logical fallicy = FALSE DELIMA Jesse you are very skilled at this one..... False Dilemma - Two choices are given when in actuality there could be more choices possible. It's like asking "Do all Arminians still beat their wives?" You are forced to answer yes or no and both outcomes would be inconsistant with that fact that many Bible Believing Arminians in fact don't and have never beat their wives... Now to offer a 3rd option although there may be more.... Romans 9:22-24 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? It would be my argument that the primary focus of the Gospel is not to save sinners (man) but rather that Christ (God) be Glorified in the saving of sinners. Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. Fact of the matter is that not everyone is saved. Scripture clearly reveals that many will be cast into hell even many of those that profess the name of Christ (Matt 7:21-23). As a Non-Calvinist (I don't know what you would call yourself - Pelegian, Arminian, Semi-Pelegian?) you have a similar problem. If God purposes all men (each and every individual) to be saved why aren't they? Is God (In your system of theology) so limited that his purposes cannot come to pass? Isaiah 14:27 For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back? You have few choices... 1) God does not purpose for every unique individual to be saved, but effectually saves all that are ordained to eternal life. There are many a "jungle man" who are cut off and have died without the possibility of hearing the Gospel. 2) God's purpose is overthrown by man, thus he ceases to be Almighty God, and you truly have no assurance of Salvation. In the preaching of the Gospel as Calvinists our goal is 3 fold: 1) The Glorifying of God 2) Obediance To God 3) Our Love for Man Observations: As Calvinists....1) We preach the Gospel to Glorify Christ! As evangelists our Goal in preaching should first and foremost be to bring God glory in the preaching of his Word. It is not us but the Holy Spirit who converts the hearst of men and makes the preached word effectual. We are to be consistant in preaching the truth not to pursuade men but to please God. Galatians 1:10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ
John 12:28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.
John 13:32 If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him.
John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
John 21:19 This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.
Revelation 15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest. 2) We preach the Gospel to be obedient to the commands of God! Unfortunately many Calvinists are represented as neglecting the "means of grace" in which God has ordained to gather the elect unto Himself namely "Preaching of the Word". We are asked often "Why do you preach?" this is none but a straw man.... One simple but incomplete answer is - "We are commanded to do so..." We also know without the outward call of Gosple preaching men would perish. I can also ask of the Arminian: "Why do you pray for the conversion of anyone?" Logically God has chosen to leave man to himself in the work of Salvation. If God doesn't violate man's free will how can you logically pray. "God do a work in x,y,and z, sinner's heart's that they will repent" "God send your Holy Spirit to change them" etc. However we know that you do pray because it is a "means of grace" by which God has ordained for us to communicate our dependence on Him. Ezekiel 3:18-19 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.
Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Matthew 28:18-20 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen
Matthew 9:38 Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.
Luke 10:2 Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.
Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 3) We preach the Gospel out of love for our fellow man...To have a "hope" that all men (each and every individual) will be saved in the end is false and counter to any true biblical teaching. As Christians we know that each and every individual man will not be saved based of the very revelation of Scripture. However we do love our fellow man and are commanded to live at peace with all men, not strive but be gentle, and above all to love our neighbor as ourselves - not only that but we are to love our enemies. The most loving thing we can do towards man is keep the commands of God and preach the Gospel to them. In doing so we care for their earthly well being and their spiritual well being. Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Matthew 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Romans 10:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
2 Timothy 2:24-25 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; So in a nut shell a Calvinist in preaching the Gospel of Salvation seeks to glorify God and to do right in loving each and every individual as we are commanded by God to do. Mark 12:30-32 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. Now this may not be the "answer" you were looking for but it is an accurate answer as to the hope a Calvinist has in the preaching of the Gospel. We seek that all who are appointed to eternal life will believe, all those that have been given to Christ, whosoever wills, all those who cry out "Lord have mercy upon me a sinner" He will in no wise cast out. We both have to deal with the fact that all men won't be saved. Yes, from a humanistic stand point this is painful - we love our neighbors, friends and famlies. We are even commanded to love our enemies - the mockers, scoffers, and wicked - The ones God is angry with every day! As the hymn writer said: "What er my God ordains is right...."
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rc
Junior Member
May God be glorified 1 Cor 10:31
Posts: 63
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Post by rc on Aug 19, 2008 19:26:58 GMT -5
I agree Paul.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 20, 2008 15:31:22 GMT -5
Paul,
I agree that our motive in preaching the Gospel should primarily be the glory of God. No doubt about that.
My question was whether we should want everyone to be saved or not. As Christians, should we want everyone to be saved? If God does not want everyone to be saved, isn't it ungodly for us to want this?
If God wants men to be born sinners, without the ability to obey, sin out of necessity, die in their sin, and go to hell forever and ever so that He can be glorified, shouldn't we want this as well? Shouldn't we want God to send cripples to hell, for violating an impossible law, in order to glorify God's justice?
If God wants only a few people to repent and believe, to glorify His mercy, and wants most people to continue in sin and go to hell, to glorify His "justice", then shouldn't we want this as well? Shouldn't we want most people to continue sinning and go to hell, so that God can be glorified?
My understanding of the Bible is that God wants everyone to repent and be saved, but those who fail to do so, God wants the next best thing - their punishment. God wants everyone to glorify Him through obedience, but those who continue to disobey will at least provide an opportunity for real justice to be glorified throughout the Universe, before all the hosts of Heaven. God will magnify His law through the punishment of transgressors. And on Judgment Day, the Saints will say "amen" when God sends sinners to hell. But on earth, Saints want everyone to repent and be saved while there is still time, just like God does.
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Post by William the Sinner on Sept 30, 2008 15:08:01 GMT -5
Paul, you did not present a clear third option at all, just filled the page with a great deal of verbiage. Then you tried to shift the subject to something entirely different. Actually, to stay within scope, the only third option is "None at all", as the first two options are "We should want ALL to be saved", "We should want some to be saved", "We should want NONE to be saved." Jesse excluded the last one because it was clearly absurd. Attempting to shift the discussion to the motive of our preaching, which was not the proper scope of the question, then using it to accuse Mr. Morrell of “False Dilemma” and say he was very skilled at that was hypocrisy, Paul. You set up a “Straw man” then dabbled in a little ad hominine sewage.
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Post by debonnaire on Oct 1, 2008 6:42:16 GMT -5
==> Should we want everyone to be saved ?
Honestly my answer would be NO , why should i want a guy like Hitler to be saved ?
I don't think that Jesus will weep when these will burn in hell. I don't think He will weep either when wolves -who have deliberately and knowingly abuse the flock- will burn in hell.
==> Do we have to preach to every creature ?
Yes that's what Jesus has said. Truly we don't know who is chosen and who is not. God had a remnant in every generation.... Now that the Truth and Grace of God has been manifested , great multitudes of people can be saved and become great saints, and some of the last will be first. That's the beauty of the Gospel. Jesus said to his servants to invite everyone so that the Father's house may be full. Once again we don't know who is who. Jesus has paid the price for all, not only for a few.
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Post by William the Sinner on Oct 1, 2008 7:38:46 GMT -5
"who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." I Tim 2:4
"The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance." II Pet 3:9
Hitler did many hideous things, but his heart was set upon self interest, self-gratification, self-glorification, self-deification. As Jonathan Edwards said "All sin is selfishness". Before repentance, your heart and mine were similarly inclined. You may not have the same opportunity to follow the corruption in your heart to the level that Hitler took his, but at the core, you are the same person as he was and as all criminals are and deserve the same condemnation.
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