rc
Junior Member
May God be glorified 1 Cor 10:31
Posts: 63
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Post by rc on Aug 16, 2008 1:22:03 GMT -5
Middle knowledge or molinism is a philosophical view that a lot of Christian philosophers hold to like William lane Craig, and Alvin Plantinga. What are your thought on it other than it is not biblical?
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Post by logic on Aug 16, 2008 10:14:06 GMT -5
Middle knowledge or molinism is a philosophical view that a lot of Christian philosophers hold to like William lane Craig, and Alvin Plantinga. What are your thought on it other than it is not biblical? I is very biblical. If not, please refute my resonce and I will be persuaded to forsake it. Matthew 11:23 And you, Capernaum, which is exalted unto heaven, shall be brought down to Hades: for if the mighty works, which have been done in you, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. Sodom repenting is an "alternative possible world" God has knowledge of the different free choices that all mankind would make if we were put into any given situation. For example, Given God's knowledge of me and these exact circumstances of my life in this "alternative possible world", God knows that in this situation I will repent. My choice might very well be not to repent in a different situation that a different "alternative possible world" would cause; God knows what my choices will be in all other situations in all other "alternative possible worlds" as well. Since each choice we make might be different in a different situation there are a wide variety of different scenarios that God knows. Together all these choices come within a seemingly infinite number of possible worlds. There are possible created worlds where I freely choose to repent and other possible worlds where circumstances are different and perhaps I choose not to repent. My repentance and unrepentance effects other's repentance &/or unrepentance as well as theirs effecting mine and even others as well. According to the theology known as Molinism, God knew axactly what would happen and what we would freely choose in this world as he does in other possible created words. God created this world out of a seemingly infinite possible number other worlds; and with this world in which we are in, the most possible souls repent with the least amount of judgment and accountability for those who do not. So, God created this world out of all of his possibilities. You could say that God predestined and foreknew all that would happen in the sense that God created a world in which all possible choices were known by him in advance. In this way, the Molinist would claim to have the best of all possible created worlds by combining several very important theological themes that often seem to contradict one another: 1 - Human beings have the freedom of choice. 2 - God foreknows all these choices. 3 - God created the world in which the most possible souls repent with the least amount of accountability and judgment for those who don't repent. The questions arise: why would a loving God create those He knows will not repent? If God chose to not create those who He knows will not repent, that alteration of this optimum amount of repented would change the circumstances to where it would cause more to not repent as the other alternative worlds. If God knew men would not repent, why did God create them? I will give an example to answer this one. My intention is to invite & to dine with my whole neighborhood to my favorite restaurant. I know that most will not come and dine with me, however, that does not change my intention to do so. Then, come the questions: why would I intend on inviting those who I know will not show up?It is because I love them, the invitation proves my love for them. Furthermore, if I don't invite those who I know will not come, it will cause some that I know who will come to deny my invitation. Or, Why would God created those HE knows will not repent? It is because HE loves them anyway, the invitation of the Cross of Christ to repent proves His love for them. Furthermore, if HE didn't create those that HE knows will not repent, it will cause some that HE knows who will repent to not repent . Just as in real life, God will use the death of a person(saved or not) to cause another to come to Him. Or, as I mentioned above, If God didn't create them, it would cause more to not repent as the other alternative worlds. The most common objection to this Molinism is the “grounding objection.” Basically, can a choice be truly free if it is known ahead of time? In other words, no one (God included) can know my choice of vanilla or chocolate until I make the choice. If a choice is determined ahead of time, then it is not free. This is a false assumption, the knowledge of another's choice does not take the options away from the one choosing, nor does it stop the freedom to choose. God is not the One who determines a man's choices just because He knows them. I am looking forward to this discusion, for I am a Semi-palagian Molinist myself
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 16, 2008 15:15:24 GMT -5
I am an open theist, but I have not throughly studied middle knowledge.
I would say this, if God eternally foreknew all things, He could not predetermine anything. Therefore if God has ever planned anything, it was at one time open. If God has ever determined anything, then it must have been undetermined and unknown before hand. God could not have plans, or predestine anything, unless it was first unsettled, open, undetermined, contingent, or a possibility. If God eternally foreknew everything, nothing was an open possibility, all things would have been eternal certainties. And if all things were already eternal certainties, God could not predestine or necessitate anything. If all is eternally certain, nothing could have been necessitated.
If God knew, from all of eternity, that you would be in a car accident next week, God is powerless to stop it. God cannot help you, or else His foreknowledge would be wrong.
But if God foresees this open possibility, and sees circumstances that are leading up to it, then God can make the necessary provisions and arrangements to stop the event from happening.
With eternal foreknowledge, God is powerless to avoid anything. But in an open system, God can plan things and avoid things.
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Post by logic on Aug 17, 2008 18:01:14 GMT -5
I am an open theist, but I have not throughly studied middle knowledge. I would say this, if God eternally foreknew all things, He could not predetermine anything. Therefore if God has ever planned anything, it was at one time open. If God has ever determined anything, then it must have been undetermined and unknown before hand. God could not have plans, or predestine anything, unless it was first unsettled, open, undetermined, contingent, or a possibility. If God eternally foreknew everything, nothing was an open possibility, all things would have been eternal certainties. And if all things were already eternal certainties, God could not predestine or necessitate anything. If all is eternally certain, nothing could have been necessitated. If God knew, from all of eternity, that you would be in a car accident next week, God is powerless to stop it. God cannot help you, or else His foreknowledge would be wrong. But if God foresees this open possibility, and sees circumstances that are leading up to it, then God can make the necessary provisions and arrangements to stop the event from happening. With eternal foreknowledge, God is powerless to avoid anything. But in an open system, God can plan things and avoid things. Keep it up, This is the very logigic that I need. You are persuading me more every time you type a post out like this very one. Yet. I have not had time to fully concider this on my own to fully be persauded. Thanx Jesse. I hope you will keep your self last with men, that you may be first with HIM.
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Post by logic on Aug 18, 2008 11:45:24 GMT -5
I am an open theist, but I have not throughly studied middle knowledge. I would say this, if God eternally foreknew all things, He could not predetermine anything. Therefore if God has ever planned anything, it was at one time open. If God has ever determined anything, then it must have been undetermined and unknown before hand. God could not have plans, or predestine anything, unless it was first unsettled, open, undetermined, contingent, or a possibility. If God eternally foreknew everything, nothing was an open possibility, all things would have been eternal certainties. And if all things were already eternal certainties, God could not predestine or necessitate anything. If all is eternally certain, nothing could have been necessitated. Could it be that GOD dud not predetermine anything. But it is to us predetermined IOW, to God, nothing is planed or predestined, but only in our perspective. This is the part that trips me up. It is as I always say that if Moses never did pray to God as there was a possibility for that to happen, God would have did what HE said HE would do. There was no real possibility for that if it is already settled. This theory sorta makes God even greater in everything because HE is able to manipulate EVERYTHING, and yet, keep all mankind responsible for all he does.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 18, 2008 13:24:37 GMT -5
God does have plans all throughout the Bible. The flood, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, the incarnation and sacrifice of Christ, the destruction of the world, the Day of Judgment, Heaven, hell, etc.
God makes very definite plans. In an open system, God is able to both make plans and change plans. For example, God planned the destruction of Nineveh, but then He changed His plans. This is only possible in an open system.
There can be no alternative possibilities unless there is an open system.
A foreknown event is a certain event. A predestined event is a necessitated event. A free will event is a contingent event.
What is certain will happen. What is necessitated must happen. What is contingent may or may not happen.
In a system of certainties (eternal foreknowledge) there can be no alternative possibilities.
In a system of necessity (exhaustive predestination) there can be no alternative possibilities.
But in a system of contingencies (free will decisions) there can be countless possibilities.
And God, being omniscient, would foreknow all of these possibilities. God would know reality as it is. What is open God would know as open, what is settled God would know as settled. If something may or may not happen, God would know that it may or may not happen. If something definitely will happen, God would know that it definitely will happen. The future would be partly open (unsettled) and partly settled (determined) and God would know the future as the future is.
If God has eternal foreknowledge, God is powerless to plan anything at all.
If God has predestined everything, even this requires that God Himself at least lives in an open system, where events were not foreknown until God predestined them. God could only predestine everything if everything was at first originally unsettled and therefore not foreknown.
If God lives in an open system, then God is able to make plans, change plans, change circumstances, create circumstances, guide history, etc. Really, only an in open system is God able to be God at all.
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rc
Junior Member
May God be glorified 1 Cor 10:31
Posts: 63
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Post by rc on Oct 4, 2008 17:24:14 GMT -5
I recommend listening to Ronald Nash concerning Middle Knowlege at www.biblicaltraining.org for I completely agree with his assisment. I would agree God knows all things including possibilities, thus God does have middle knowlege, but not the same way as it is proclaimed by molinists. I deny libertarian free will, nd the notion that in order for God to due something He must also change all the events down the chain of cause and effect for it to occur.
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rc
Junior Member
May God be glorified 1 Cor 10:31
Posts: 63
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Post by rc on Oct 4, 2008 18:36:57 GMT -5
I should also recommend www.monergism.com for material on both molinism and open theism.
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