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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 17, 2008 9:32:56 GMT -5
Here is a great lecture on The Unity of Moral Action: www.pinpointevangelism.com/libraryoftheologycom/writings/moralcharacter/Unity_of_Moral_Action_Finney.pdf"That obedience cannot be partial in the sense that the subject ever does, or can, partly obey and partly disobey at the same time.... Can the will at the same time make opposite choices? Can it choose the highest good of being as an ultimate end, and at the same time choose any other ultimate end, or make any choices whatever inconsistent with this ultimate choice? ..... The mind cannot choose one ultimate end, and choose at the same time another ultimate end." Charles Finney You cannot choose the glory of God as the supreme object of your pursuit (good) and choose your own selfish pleasure as your ultimate intention or pursuit (evil). In other words, you cannot serve two Masters. Good and evil are exact opposites, you cannot choose both of them at the same time. You can choose good one moment, and choose evil the next moment, but you cannot choose both at the same time. Sin or righteousness comes out of the will or heart (Isa. 14:13-14; Eze. 11:21; Ps. 58:2; Matt. 5:28; 12:35; 15:18-19; Lk. 6:45; Rom. 6:17; 10:10; 2 Pet. 2:14). And since we only have one heart, we are holy or sinful, righteous or unrighteous, moral or immoral, loving or selfish, obedient or disobedient, at any given time, but never both at the same time (Matt. 6:22-24; 7:17-18; 12:33; Lk. 11:34-36; Rom. 3:10-18; 2 Cor. 5:17; Tit. 1:15-16; Jas. 2:10; 3:11-12). You cannot serve two masters (Matt. 6:24; Lk. 16:13), since you only have one heart, you only have one will. A good tree will have good fruit. It cannot have bad fruit. - Jesus The same spring cannot give forth both bitter and good water. - James
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kenm
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Posts: 173
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Post by kenm on Aug 18, 2008 14:59:26 GMT -5
Could you or anyone else give an explanation of Romans 6:15-22 and how is it that Paul is writing about nothing good dwells in him that is flesh and that he wants to do good but not the ability to carry it out.
Is he not wanting to do good but doing evil. Is it possible that his heart's desire is to do good but he is still doing evil?
vs 24 wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
and then He goes on to say that in his mind he serves the law but with the flesh he serves the law of sin.
and then he opens up Chpt. 8 with vs 1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
I would like to hear how to defend this against someone who used this to say sin is not a choice and it is our nature to sin.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 18, 2008 15:08:43 GMT -5
ROMANS SEVEN
First and foremost, we must understand what Paul is arguing for. What is the context and object of Paul's argument? Paul is trying to vindicate the law from the charge of causing sin.
"What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid!" Rom. 7:7 "Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." Rom. 7:12
The rest of Paul's argument explains how the law, or the work of the law upon the mind, is not the fault of sin. But that sin is the fault of the sinner, of the choice of the sinners own inner heart. So Paul explains how the fault is not with the law, but with the sinner.
And we must also understand that Paul is not explaining his own Christian experience. Paul is going on a narrative to explain how the law of God, working on the mind of a sinner, brings the man into a state of misery. "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. And the commandment which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death." Rom. 7:9-10. Paul started off explaining how a sinner is careless, but then the commandment comes and convicts him and he be comes miserable.
"For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal sold under sin." Rom. 7:14
The law commands me to walk after the spiritual things, to live a life of morality, but I am living for myself, for my own selfish gratification, I have given myself to sin.
"For that which I do I allow not, for what I would that do I not; but what I hate, that do I." Rom. 7:15
That which I choose, my convicted mind condemns. That which my mind requires, I do not choose. But what my mind condemns, that I choose.
"If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good." Rom. 7:16
If then I choose that which my mind condemns, I mentally consent unto the goodness of the law.
"Now then, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me." Rom. 7:17
Therefore, it is not my convicted mind that causes me to sin, but it is the choice of my own inner heart. Sin comes out of the heart (Matt. 15:19; Mk. 7:21), it is a choice to let sin reign inside of you (Job 11:14, Matt. 23:26, Rom. 6:12).
"For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing" Rom. 7:18
I know, through the conviction of the law upon my mind, that my heart is in total rebellion against God.
"For to will is present with me: but to perform that which is good I find not." Rom. 7:18
The ability to will is present with me, but to actually perform that which my mind confirms as good I find that I do not choose.
"For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do." Rom. 7:19
For the good that my mind tells me should be chosen, I do not choose. But the evil which my mind condemns, that I choose.
"Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me." Rom. 7:20
If my heart chooses that which my convicted mind condemns, it is not my convicted minds fault, but it is the fault of the choice of my own inner heart. Sin comes out of the heart (Matt. 15:19; Mk. 7:21), it is a choice to let sin reign inside of you (Job 11:14, Matt. 23:26, Rom. 6:12). The fact that I do what I know I shouldn't, this proves that sin is still in my heart.
"I find then a law, that when I would do good, evil is present with me." Rom. 7:21
I see then a habit, that when my convicted mind commands me to do good, my heart is still evil.
"For I delight in the law of God after the inward man." Rom. 7:22
My inner conscience sees the goodness of the law of God.
"But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members." Rom. 7:23
I see another influence that is in me, the influence of my flesh which seeks gratification, which is contrary to the law that my mind delights in, and I am brought into the bondage of being governed by my passions instead of by my conscience.
"O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Rom. 7:24
What a miserable person that I am, without any peace of mind! Who can possibly deliver me from choosing to serve the pleasures of my flesh, from unlawfully gratifying my passions, which leads me to such spiritual and miserable death?
"I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord" Rom. 7:25
I am thankful to God that through Jesus Christ our Lord, a wicked rebellious heart can be subdued, and we can have peace of mind.
"So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin." Rom 7:25
In summary, the mind of a convicted sinner affirms the law of God, but they themselves are still serving sin, still seeking their own self-gratification, still using their members as instruments of unrighteousness (Rom. 6:13, 19).
And it is important to understand that Paul's argument does not stop here! He continues his argument:
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit." Rom. 8:1
The mind of those who choose to obey the Spirit, instead gratifying their flesh, no longer condemns them. They have peace of conscience and are no longer convicted sinners. They are no longer miserable and wretched, under the condemnation of their minds.
"For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit." Rom. 8:5
Individuals who seek to gratify the flesh choose to do things that please their flesh, but individuals who choose to live according to the spirit do things that please the spirit.
"For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace." Rom. 8:6
To choose to be purposed after selfishness is misery, but to be purposed to obey your conscience is real life with peace of mind.
"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Romans 8:2-4
The law of God could never subdue the hearts of rebels, as proven through Romans 7. And so what the law could not do, the Gospel can do. The grace of God shown as the cross of Christ is powerful enough to subdue our hearts and bring us to submission and obedience, that the righteousness of the law be fulfilled in our hearts, so as no longer have sin reigning and dwelling in our hearts. (1 Jn. 4:19)
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Post by logic on Aug 18, 2008 16:15:35 GMT -5
Could you or anyone else give an explanation of Romans 6:15-22 and how is it that Paul is writing about nothing good dwells in him that is flesh and that he wants to do good but not the ability to carry it out. Romans 7:18 I know that nothing of virtue is in my flesh. However, I am willing to do good (wiling to have the right effections) , but, I don't know how to do it.Notice that the will is in Pauls, but He does not know hos to overcome his sinfull desires. In Romans 7:21 I find then a standard, that when I desire to do good, corruption (inability & weakness of the flesh) is right there with me.He finds himself bound to the lusts of his own flesh, he can not consistantly go against the flesh, because he is in the flesh. The flesh is week and one will always willfuly give in to the flesh, because that is all they have to rely on. It's like it's like overcoming the flesh with the flesh, this is futile. Spiritual Death is the effect of sin according to Romans 6:23. Spiritual Death is the separation from God just as physical death is the separation of the spirit from the body. The ''law of sin'' and the "law of death"(Rom 8:2) are the demands of our own fleshly desires & affections against known law that bring me in opposition to God which separates me from Him. The ''law of sin'' includes the inability of the flesh to deny its own fleshly desires apart from the Spirit & faith in HIM. This concludes that which is in our ''members'' (v.23) are the unlawful effections &/or desires which brings about spiritual death. Romans 7:25 With the mind, which is my actual being, I truly agree to the righteous requirements of the Law of God, and with the flesh, I serve the requirements of my own fleshly desires, which is death.Paul is not giving an excuse. If sin ain't a choice, we are not at fault, it is commone sence. Tell them to get a theology that lines up with reality.
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kenm
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Posts: 173
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Post by kenm on Aug 18, 2008 21:38:08 GMT -5
Thank you both for your responses.
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