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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 22, 2008 9:52:12 GMT -5
I believe in the nature and character of God. Natural attributes is simply what you are, without any choice involved. That is your nature. Moral attributes is your character, it is what you choose to be. Nature is involuntary, but what is moral is always voluntary. Moral character is never involuntary, moral character is always chosen.
The nature of God has to do with His constitutional attributes and faculties. The moral character of God has to do with His will, with the voluntary condition of His heart.
God has natural attributes which He didn't choose to have, He simply has. For example: omniscience, omnipresent, omnipotent. God didn't choose to have these, He simply does.
God has moral attributes which He does choose to have. For example: God is patient, loving, kind, merciful, just, etc.
Both God's natural attributes and His moral attributes are eternal. They never began, they will never end. God has always had these attributes, He will never stop having these attributes, they are eternal attributes.
Retributive justice is giving to every moral being rewards and punishments according to what they deserve according to their own moral character. God chooses to do this. God chooses to give to every moral being rewards and punishments according to what they deserve according to their moral characters. That is why God is just. That is what the Bible means when it says God will judge the world in righteousness.
Public justice is seeking the highest well-being of all, through the means of law and punishment. God has chosen to establish a moral government in order to promote the highest well-being of His creation. Laws are not arbitrary rules. God Himself, in His divine mind, knows right from wrong (Gen. 3:22, 18:25; Job 34:10, 12) and He legislates accordingly. Laws do not originate right and wrong (Rom. 5:13; Gal. 5:19) but laws declare right and wrong (Rom. 3:20; 7:7). The laws of God are fundamentally derived from His divine mind (Gen. 3:22), declaring what He knows to be good and forbidding what He knows to be evil. Sin is whatever the divine intelligence of God deems as harmful or hurtful to the highest well-being of all. His laws therefore are truth; they are expressed truths of reality (Ps. 119:142). What God commands, He commands because it is right (Isa. 45:19).
There is no doubt that God's nature requires or demands that He be just. That is, His conscience affirms the rectitude of justice. God's divine nature tells Him what moral attributes He should choose. God's will is voluntarily under subjection to His nature. His nature, or conscience, tells Him what is morally right, and His will chooses what is morally right. God's nature is good, it affirms good, and therefore God's will chooses good. His nature does not necessitate His will, but His nature influences His will, and His will voluntarily complies. That is why God has a righteous moral character, because He chooses what His nature demands.
God is under obligation to His own conscience (Gen. 3:22; 18:25; Job 34:10, 12), God is under a moral obligation to obey His divine nature. Because God obeys His own moral obligation, God has moral character. Good moral character presupposes compliance with moral obligation. Without moral obligation, there can be no moral character.
God always acts in accordance with His wisdom (Prov. 3:19-20; 8:12; 8:22-30; 20:18; 24:3) and goodness (1 Jn. 4:8; 4:16).
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rc
Junior Member
May God be glorified 1 Cor 10:31
Posts: 63
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Post by rc on Aug 23, 2008 2:41:16 GMT -5
Jesse, if you believe God is just by nature you have no reason to reject man is sinful by nature. However, we both know scripture must determine this. I understand you believe sin is an action (a choice of the will) but according to Psalms 51 it is also a disposition (condition). Psalms 139:14 the term "wonderfully" must be taken into context as someone else pointed out on another thread. But I am curious how do you explain away the Eph 2:3 passage 'by NATURE children of wrath"? The passage is saying by nature not choice.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 23, 2008 17:56:21 GMT -5
God's nature (his constitutional conscience) tells him to choose what is good. And he chooses to choose good. God is good by choice.
Our nature (our constitutional conscience) tells us good from evil. And sinners have chosen to be evil. Men are sinners by choice.
Moral states are always states of the will. Moral character is always determined by moral choices. Your nature tells you to do good, but your nature does not force you to do good. That is your own free will choice.
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Regarding Eph 2:3 this is from my outline:
4. “…by nature children of wrath” Ephesians 2:3:
-----A. The word nature can describe a man’s God given constitution: (Rom 1:26; 1:31; 2:14; 2:27; 2 Tim 3:3). But this is just dirt and it is created by God. Therefore it cannot be sinful in and of itself.
-----B. The word nature can describe a man’s self chosen character, custom, habit, or manner of life: (Jer. 13:23; Acts 26:4; 1 Cor 2:14; Eph 2:2-3; Gal 2:14-15; 2 Tim 3:10; 2 Pet 1:4). This is voluntary and has to do with the heart. Therefore moral character, or sinfulness, can belong to this type of nature.
-----C. The context of this particular passage is talking about a former manner of life, addressing a previous lifestyle. "Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world... among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of the flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind..." Eph. 2:2-3
-----D. A sinful nature is moral not metaphysical, it is a person’s self chosen character and not his God given constitution. A man’s heart (will) can be sinful, but a man’s body can only be an occasion of temptation.
“For Paul, the ‘sinful nature’ has to do with conduct, habit, and developed character.” F. Lagard Smith (Troubling Questions for Calvinists, pg. 123).
Men are sinners because of the way they choose to use their nature, because of their voluntary usage of their constitution. In Eph. 2:2-3 we see men forming the habit of using their constitution for evil, to serve themselves, instead of using them as instruments of righteousness, presenting themselves as living sacrifices to God.
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-----------(5.) The body in and of itself is amoral. It is good or bad depending on how free will decide to use it (Rom. 6:13, 19; 12:1; 1 Thes. 4:4, 5:23; 1 Tim. 2:8). Flesh, blood, bones, skin, are all amoral just like rocks, sticks, dirt, etc are. In fact, God made us out of the dirt (Gen. 2:7). Our bodies are only as sinful as dirt is sinful, and dirt is not sinful. You could use a rock in an evil way, but the rock itself is not evil. You could use your body in an evil way, but your body itself is not sinful. Sin is not physical. Sin is a choice of the heart.
-----------(6.) Jesus had the same flesh and blood that we have (Rom. 8:3 with Php. 2:7-8; Heb. 2:14, 16-18 with 4:15; Rom. 1:3 with 2 Tim. 2:8).
-----------(7.) The Gnostic heretics denied Jesus came in the flesh (1 Jn. 4:3; 2 Jn. 1:7) because they said the physical body was in and of itself sinful.
-----------(8.) When the Bible says that Jesus was made in the “likeness of sinful flesh” (Rom. 8:3) it simply means he was “made in the likeness of men” (Php. 2:7-8). “Flesh” is a term used for men in the Bible (Gen. 6:12; Matt. 16:17; Gal. 1:16).
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5. The occasion of sin and the cause of sin must be distinguished.
-----A. The occasion of sin (temptation) is the lust of the flesh (Gen. 3:6; Rom. 7:5, 23; Gal. 4:14; Jas. 1:14-15).
-----------(1.) The lusts of the flesh are an influence, not causation (1 Cor. 10:13).
“If these feelings are not suffered to influence the will… if such feelings are not cherished, and are not suffered to shake the integrity of the will; they are not sin. That is, the will does not consent to them, but the contrary. They are only temptations. If they are allowed to control the will, to break forth in words and actions, then there is sin; but the sin does not consist in the feelings, but in the consent of the will, to gratify them.” Charles Finney (Systematic Theology pg. 191).
-----B. The cause of sin is the decision or choice of the heart or will (Isa. 14:13-14; Rom. 6:12).
-----------(1.) Men make themselves sinners (Gen. 6:12; Exo. 32:7; Deut. 9:12; 32:5; 1 Sam. 3:13; Jdg. 2:19; Isa. 66:3; Hos. 9:9; Ps. 14:2-3; Isa. 53:6; Ecc. 7:29; Zep. 3:7; Matt. 12:34-35; 15:17-20; Mk. 7:15, 21-22; Lk. 6:45; Rom. 3:23).
-----------(2.) Men originate their sin in their own hearts (Ecc. 7:29; Matt. 12:34-35; 15:17-20; Mk. 7:15, 21-22; Lk. 6:45).
“… all men must look to themselves as the cause of their sin.” Gordon Olson (The Entrance of Sin into the World, pg 10).
“It is the very essence of moral government that man is the sole author of his own actions.” Gordon Olson (The Moral Government of God, pg. 15)
-----C. Sin is an abuse of our God given nature.
Pelagius said sinners “abuse the liberty granted to them” but the righteous are “rightly using freewill.” (An Historical Presentation of Augustinism And Pelagianism by Wiggers, p. 223)
“Moral beings themselves are the author of their own rebellion, which is an unintelligent abuse of their God-given endowments of personality…. It is man who has abused his God-given freedom.” Gordon Olson (The Entrance of Sin into the World, pg. 31, 38).
-----------(1.) Free will is an element of our nature. This is abused or misused when sin is chosen. The purpose of free will was so that we could obey God, so that we could love God and each other.
-----------(2.) Intelligence is an element of our nature. This is abused or misused when sin is chosen. The purpose of our intelligence was so that we could know right from wrong, so that we could know the will or law of God.
-----------(3.) Emotions are an element of our nature. This is abused or misused when sin is chosen. The purpose of our emotions was so that we could experience and enjoy God and each other.
-----------(4.) Sinners use their free will to serve their emotions, while acting entirely contrary to their intelligence. But free will was meant to obey our intelligence, and our emotions were meant to serve us.
-----------(5.) Sinners seek to gratify their God given desires in an unlawful and forbidden manner.
-----------(6.) Sinners have corrupted themselves (Gen. 6:12; Exo. 32:7; Deut. 9:12; Deut. 32:5; Jdg. 2:19; Hos. 9:9) and have perverted their own way (Jer. 3:21).
“The Bible declares that men, having been created upright and in the image of God, have corrupted themselves and sinned against the good nature that God created them with.” Alfred T. Overstreet (Over One Hundred Texts From The Bible That Show That Babies Are Not Born Sinners, pg. 3).
-----------(7.) Homosexuals are considered those who abuse themselves with mankind (1 Cor. 6:9). They are abusing what God has given them, using for evil what God meant for good.
“Sin… A failing to hit the mark… a misdirection of our faculties.” Gordon Olson (Holiness & Sin, pg. 30).
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