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Post by Jesse Morrell on Oct 7, 2008 11:27:07 GMT -5
THE EXISTENCE OF GODCharles G. Finney (Excerpt from "Lecture Notes on Theology") 8. Again, we have seen in a former lecture that the ideas of the finite and the infinite are contrasts, always exist together in the mind, and that neither can be held without the other. The same we have seen to be true of the ideas of the perfect and the imperfect, and also of the conditioned and the unconditioned, of succession and time, of body and space. One of these ideas, then, implies the other; and where one is the other must be. But does the fact of the existence of the finite imply the existence of the infinite; the existence of the imperfect that of the perfect; the existence of the conditioned that of the unconditioned? I answer, yes. (1) Because no finite being is self-existent. Every finite existence, therefore, must have begun to be in time, must have had a cause; and as an infinite series of causes and effects is a contradiction, there must be a First Cause. (2) An imperfect being cannot be a self-existent being; for whatever is self-existent, we have seen, must be infinite, and therefore every attribute which a self-existent being possesses must be perfect in the highest conceivable sense, since, being infinite, nothing can be conceived to be wanting. If then, there be an imperfect being, it must be a dependent being; but this implies the existence of a First Cause, infinite and perfect. (3) The same is true of a conditioned being. The very conception of a conditioned being is that of a dependent being, that is, dependent for existence. Such a being, therefore, cannot be self-existent. But if not self-existent, it must have been created; and there must have been a First Cause, which must be self-existent and unconditioned. IV. PROPOSITIONS, in the light of the foregoing. 1. First proposition: If any event ever occurred, an infinite and perfect God exists. Syllogism: Major premise: We have seen that events imply the existence of a First Cause. Minor premise: We have seen also that a First Cause must be self-existent and therefore infinite and perfect. Conclusion: Therefore if any event exists, God exists, the infinite and perfect. 2. Second proposition: If any consciousness exists, God exists, the infinite and perfect. Syllogism: Major premise: Consciousness must be either an eternal and infinite, or a finite consciousness. If an infinite consciousness, then it must be the consciousness of God, and God exists; if finite consciousness, it is an event. Minor premise: But the existence of any event, as we have seen, implies the existence of an infinite and perfect Cause. Conclusion: Therefore if any consciousness exists, God the infinite and perfect exists. 3. Third proposition: If any doubt of the existence of God exists, God must exist. Syllogism: Major premise: The existence of doubt is an event. Minor premise: The existence of any event, as we have seen, implies the existence of an infinite First Cause. Conclusion: Therefore, if any doubt exists of God's existence, God the infinite and perfect must exist. 4. Fourth proposition: If God's existence be denied, his existence must be a fact. Syllogism: Major premise: The denial of the existence of God must be an event. Minor premise: The existence of any event implies the existence of an infinite and perfect First Cause. Conclusion: Therefore, if God's existence was ever denied, his existence must be a fact. 5. Fifth proposition: If atheists exist, God exists. Syllogism: Major premise: the existence of an atheist is an event. Minor premise: The existence of any event implies the divine existence. Conclusion: Therefore, if there be an atheist in existence, God the infinite and perfect exists. (Lecture Notes on Theology, published by Truth In Heart, pg. 121-122) truthinheart.com/EarlyOberlinCD/CD/Finney/Theology/flt.htm#N_8_
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Post by dale on Oct 7, 2008 15:56:15 GMT -5
Oh come on Jesse, this is dumb, even from you.
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Post by davidvalley on Oct 7, 2008 19:35:04 GMT -5
I agree. You really don't make one point in that whole post except that we cannot exist without there being God. That proves nothing.
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Post by kureji on Oct 7, 2008 20:17:46 GMT -5
Christians always ask the question of what created us if there isn't a God. My answer is we weren't created like a painting is created by a painter. We are just a formation of energy, and energy is never created nor destroyed, simply changed. Energy has always existed and always will. At least that's my favorite belief for a no God solution.
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Post by davidvalley on Oct 8, 2008 0:42:45 GMT -5
I don't believe in the big bang or anything like that but I also don't like how people look at God as a human. Don't know what I'm talking about? Think about it. People look at God the same way most Americans look at the President. God is not some elected president. He isn't even a person. The idea of God is much more complicated and spiritual than anyone could really imagine.
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Post by debonnaire on Oct 8, 2008 5:23:43 GMT -5
My answer is we weren't created like a painting is created by a painter. We are just a formation of energy, and energy is never created nor destroyed, simply changed. Energy has always existed and always will. Does energy has intelligence , or purpose, or morality ….? If you and me are just a formation of energy , and if someone kills us , then this person would not be more guilty than the guy of the gas company who turns off a switch.
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Post by kureji on Oct 8, 2008 7:24:17 GMT -5
Does energy has intelligence , or purpose, or morality ….? If you and me are just a formation of energy , and if someone kills us , then this person would not be more guilty than the guy of the gas company who turns off a switch. Lol you're silly No energy by itself doesn't have intelligence or purpose or morality. First energy is formed into matter, once it is matter, it must be formed into something resembling life. Then you can say it has intelligence.Morality? You should know I'm a moral relativist right now. Purpose? I'm still doubting we have any purpose at all. And I suppose if you want to downgrade the status of light as the same as stopping the flow of electricity, then sure the murderer can be guilt free. Though don't you think your view on what energy is, is alittle narrow? Energy isn't just electricity. Energy is sound, heat, gravity. The same thing expressed in different ways. Good example, you pick up a sandbag that is laying on the ground. You just stored potential energy in the sand bag. As you let go of the sandbag, the bag falls releasing kinetic energy. Even though it's not by even a fraction of a degree most likely, it also releases alittle heat by the friction in the air. When it hits the ground it makes a sound which is one of the last conversions of that potential energy. So there, basic physics lesson on how energy isn't just electricity. OH and btw, theres a philosophical fallacy that alot of christians pull when they debate the existance of God and try dismissing others. It's where because you think something shouldn't be that way so you state it isn't. For instance, if you think murdering people should be considered wrong because it should be that way. Just because you think something should be something doesn't make it the case. Now, I'm not saying you should go around murdering people or that it's even alright to murder people, I'm just saying that there might actually be no "moral reason" not to murder someone, other than if you want to become an outcast in society. Argh late for class, I'll type more on this later if you want. Feel free to comment and such, heh. EDIT: I thought of this as almost out the door, I know some of you might be confused by my last statement and try to tie it to my previous statements of why I don't like the Christian God, and how if he does this then this. Just to clarify so you don't think me a dirty dirty hypocrit, I said If he does that then he's a prick, not if he does that then he must not be real or it must not be a valid belief.
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Post by evilart on Oct 8, 2008 18:57:52 GMT -5
Christians are forever working to find a way to prove the existance of their mythical god and will always fail because they are worshipping a myth.
See the outstanding documentary, The God Who Wasn't There for a common sense look into the Jesus myth.
Face it, all religions are a crutch by and for weak people.
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