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Post by fs on Nov 8, 2008 18:03:50 GMT -5
I am relatively new here but have a great burden for the lost who come to this board . I have tried despertaely to say or do something to get them to listen and have failed miserably.
I also btoched witnessing when today I was passing these anti-abortion tarcts and one of the scoffers told me, "You people only care about the unborn and nothing about the already born."
Normally such things do not bother me, but this time they did
I also try to keep in mind that while I may not be able to see the immediate results I have planted a seed that may grow later on as Jesus wills with these people.
I think as of late though, I am failing the Lord miserably.
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Post by tbxi on Nov 8, 2008 18:28:08 GMT -5
fs:
in your own power, you can do nothing to change these people. And by their own wills, they will NEVER come to God, because unbelievers hate God and do not seek Him. But if God wills, He will change those whom You speak to. So you can be confident that God's word will never return void - His will by it is always accomplished, whether softening or hardening hearts.
If you are "botching" what you're doing then you might be operating in the flesh. Trying in your own strength to provide the right words, or to do the right thing, etc. Or maybe you just did not know how to respond to someone. If you have unsound theology about the Christian walk or salvation in general this will affect everything you do.
I would recommend studying systematic theology in order to shape your views on this, and all issues, because it asks what the whole Bible says about a given topic. Do you have any books like this? If not I can recommend some things.
Tyler
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Post by logic on Nov 9, 2008 21:34:07 GMT -5
fs: in your own power, you can do nothing to change these people. Amen!!! Mat 19:26 With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.All men must come to God by their own wills. They must be persuaded. If one does not come to God by their own volition, they are not realy coming with their heart, and not counted as worthy. God wants ones heart (their will). Not all hate God. Some don't even know about Christ to hate Him. Some are just, plain apathetic toward God, not hating Him. Some even think they love Him with out even knowing that They are actualy doing things contrary to Him. Some might hate a wrong concept of God, they don't realy hate HIM in particular, but they hate the false concept of Him that they have in their minds. We are not warring not against flesh and blood (Eph 6:12) and though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh: therefore, the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds; Casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God(false concepts of God, ignorance and lies of the devil) , and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ(with the persuasion of the truth)(2Corinth 10:3-5) God wills that all men be saved. The change of those men will be either two ways: Their pride will rise up and they will be offended to the hardening of their own heart against the word of God and His witness. Or: The Word of God will humble themselves to the softening of their hearts to bring them to repentance. God never intends to harden anyones heart, He just knows that some will harden their heart because of their pride causes them to, it's from the offence of HIS Word, just as Pharaoh hardened his own heart. I would suggest or recommend prayer and studying HIS Word, that is all you need.
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Post by tbxi on Nov 9, 2008 21:50:55 GMT -5
logic: So if you come to God by your own volition, you think you are worthy of salvation? I never said that people do not have volitions or wills. What I meant is that people do not have free wills, and being by nature children of wrath, they will not come to God. God changes the volition of a person when that person is born again, and this new birth is not somethinig that he does or a result of anything that he does. John 3:8, Romans 8:7. In the natural state, yes they do. Your citation of that verse is wrong. Romans 1 says, 18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. This refers to everyone. No, He really doesn't. In 2 Peter 3:9, the antecedent of "you" is "beloved", not everyone. In 1 Timothy 2:4, we were just exhorted to pray for all kinds of people, i.e. those in authority, etc. After this we are told that God desires all men to be saved. But you must determine what "all" means according to the context, not just assume it always means everyone. The context and the rest of Scripture dictates that God does not desire to save all people. If He wanted to, He would. But He doesn't. Therefore, He doesn't want to. Romans 9:18: So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. Note that I also said that systematic theology is important because it attempts to systematize everything the Bible says about a topic. Hence, it is simply another way of studying the Bible.
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Post by logic on Nov 9, 2008 22:36:20 GMT -5
logic: So if you come to God by your own volition, you think you are worthy of salvation? If you don't, it would be called coercion. They are "children of wrath" by their own fault, not because they were born that way. But you are partialy correct, some will not come to God, it's not that they can't Your saying that one is saved as a child of God before they want to become one? That does not line up with reality. they do whay, sorry Which verse? 18: The righteousness of God is revealed from us christians as being witnesses to HIS righteousness, the wrath of God is revealed from heaven or above. We are to show God's righteousness not His wrath. :19 That which may be known of God is manifest in us as our conscience. Psa 19:1 [To the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David.] The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament shows his handiwork. :2 Day unto day utters speech, and night unto night shows knowledge. :3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. :4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them has he set a tabernacle for the sun, :5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoices as a strong man to run a race. :6 Its going forth is from the end of the heaven, and its circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.What do you say of Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band? He was a devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, who gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God always. However, he was not saved, was not born again, not "regenerated". Does this aply to Cornelius before He was saved? It can not refer to infants, nor can it apply to people like Cornelius. Before Paul was saved as Saul, he loved God to the point of persecution of those he thought were destroying Judaism, when infact he was. Paul, before he was saved loved God & His law. Go ahead & twist the Scriptures as you want to, but fact is God does not want to d@mn anyone. All means all, everyone. Mine does!!! This is a devil. Say that god wants your unsaved loved ones in hell, the ones you pray for in His Spirit with tears. But according to you, god says, "speak to the hand, the god ain't listening. hw does not want to save them. People are in hell because of their own falt, not because God doesn't want them.
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Post by tbxi on Nov 10, 2008 1:43:39 GMT -5
if we continue to talk further, would be more useful in PM's. This is getting too wide. Will send you a message.
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Post by prespilot68 on Nov 10, 2008 13:44:22 GMT -5
Logic - By all means DO NOT take this off line!
TBXI - is against the ropes here and he is like most Calvinist who want to "take it off line" because they feel they are being cornered or are loosing their arguement.
The thing is TBXI - according to your theology we are not at all "Saved by Grace" nor are we "Saved by faith", but we are saved by eternal decree or fiat. Therefore the cross is emptied of any of its power. According to you we are saved even before we exit the womb or before we can ever utter the world "beleive".
Your theology is nothing more than a distortion of God Soveriegnty - and that is God places more emphasis on his power than his love. The majority who are on this board are simply trying to keep those two characteristics within balance, unlike what I see with yourself and most Calvinist.
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Post by tbxi on Nov 10, 2008 15:17:48 GMT -5
Logic - By all means DO NOT take this off line! TBXI - is against the ropes here and he is like most Calvinist who want to "take it off line" because they feel they are being cornered or are loosing their arguement. I see that you have acquired the skill of telepathy! Congratulations. The main reason I wanted to keep it to PM was because I did not want it to begin to involve more than one person, and therefore require more time than I intended. I am also not interested in letting this become something similar to when Jesse simply dumps 1000 prooftexts on me and declares victory. Just read any of his papers - it seems like there are more colons and numbers than commas, periods, and letters at times, but you won't find much exegesis. This is stupid. Yes, we are saved by God's eternal decree / fiat, but this is not mutually exclusive with the concept of grace. His decree / fiat toward His people is gracious. On the contrary, your doctrine of salvation destroys grace, making it not "unmerited favor", but conditional from beginning to end on your own puny, creaturely performance, which is not and has never been perfect or good enough to maintain your salvation or get you into heaven (if you are even saved, which you and other open theists are not, if you really believe what your theology teaches). "Balance" that is unbiblical is no balance to be desired. God's love for His people is a sovereign one.
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Post by logic on Nov 10, 2008 15:50:07 GMT -5
Logic - By all means DO NOT take this off line! TBXI - is against the ropes here and he is like most Calvinist who want to "take it off line" because they feel they are being cornered or are loosing their arguement. The thing is TBXI - according to your theology we are not at all "Saved by Grace" nor are we "Saved by faith", but we are saved by eternal decree or fiat. Therefore the cross is emptied of any of its power. According to you we are saved even before we exit the womb or before we can ever utter the world "beleive". Your theology is nothing more than a distortion of God Soveriegnty - and that is God places more emphasis on his power than his love. The majority who are on this board are simply trying to keep those two characteristics within balance, unlike what I see with yourself and most Calvinist. Ok, I'll post my PM to him.
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Post by logic on Nov 10, 2008 16:07:04 GMT -5
That isn't only causing, it is dominating in control of man to make them do whatever HE wants.
Where is the responsibility of man in that? That is also like having God play a grand game of solitaire with Himself. There is no glory in this.
It would also show that God i not all that great & awesome that His own creation cant even acknowledge. Since God is infinitely great & awesome, all mankind are able to acknowledge it on their own, by their own volition without coercion.
Fact is, all mankind are sent to hell for not acknowledging God on there own, not because God didn't want them; mankind are sent to hell for rejecting Him, not because God rejected them.
Sorry, what’s (AC) & (AD)? Do you even know the co-text to this verse, let alone understand it? Read Jeremiah 18:2-6. This is not saying that God actually makes vessels specificaly for wrath.
The Potter doesn't throw the lump of clay away, but uses the same & makes a new vessel out of it.
The Potter did not mar the clay Himself, but the clay became marred in His hands.
The Potter(God) did all HE could do to keep the clay(Israel) from being marred. He sent Jeremiah(along with all the other prophets) and the clay(Israel) rebelled anyway.
Therefore, the Potter had to reform the clay into a new vessel.
Israel was warned to repent and they did not, that is the clay being marred. God sent them to Babylon because of there repentance, this is the clay being reformed.
John 3 says nothing like that; The wind blows where it wills, and you hear the sound thereof, but can not tell from where it came, and where it goes: so is everyone that is born of the Spirit This is more as saying: So is everyone having been conceived by the Spirit. You see the change of life and the fruit that comes from them, but you do not know from where all that comes or to where it leads them.
Only if we have two different realities.
He surly wasn't "regenerated" yet, or born again.
Romans 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is shameful, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was fitting. Everyone has not left the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another as in homosexuality. Therefore, this does not apply to everyone. Not all have a reprobate mind, therefore, verses 28 & 29 do not apply to everyone.
If Paul(Saul) hated God he would have turned his nose up at Jesus & cursed Him when he was knocked to the ground & blinded. You can not say that he was saved(regenerated or born again) already when Jesus came to him.
From context? You put your own interpretation to them based on your theology.
Apart from Scriture? I give sound reasoning from Scripture and it co-texts with the correct interpratation.
I back up what I say with scripture, what are you talking about? What have I twisted yet?
All means everyone & "world" is all mankind that ever existed & will exist on Earth in John 1.
You seem to make the great & holy, good God out to be a sadistic tyrant with your theology.
Tell me, we know that God does not have undue bias toward anyone? how does God make the distinction between whom He will save & whom he will not? What are the criteria for His election?
Don't forget, if God's choice of the elect us totally based His own whim or "just because", that is arbitrary & since all mankind are equally hell-bound, saving some just because he wants to without any reason is also giving favor unduly, undue bias. So, what are the criteria or reasons He chooses to save?
The funny thing is, according to what you believe, God saves people when they don't want to be saved then brainwashes them to want to.
Like He can't persuade His own creation of the truth without dominating/controlling the minds & hearts of man to make them see & think what He wants them to.
Do you think God would save someone who hates Him? One must turn their hatred of God to humble seeking for mercy before God will save them, & that is only if they really hate Him. If one is only apathetic with God, they must actually care before God saves them. If one has no knowledge whatsoever, they must know their situation before God saves them. This is what we must do in our evangelizing; Shoe those who hate God that their hatred is misplaced & in error. Persuade the apathetic to care about their fate. Make known the true God to those who do not know.
You have a different definition of Sovereignty. Sovereignty = absolute authority & all are accountable to him. NOT absolute cause of everything and dominating-controller of everything.
Same thing. You say that He WILL NOT save, same as saying He does not want to save.
Imagine, by chance, without knowing, you pray in His spirit, with tears, for someone who is of the "non-elect".
According to your theology/doctrines, God will not hear those prayers and does not want to save that one you are praying for.
This god does not want to save most of his creation, he will not. This god is very finite in mercy & very limited in grace. This god is not good, not kind, not the greatest conceivable being.
True, but those whom you do pray for which you don't know are the "non-elect", is like having god say "speak to the hand, the god ain't listening."
This god will not, does not want to save those who you unwittingly pray for that are the "non-elect".
Yes, God had mercy on Pharaoh by not letting him die yet. God hardened Pharaoh's heart just like if I offend someone and they hardened their heart from the offence.
We could say that I hardened their heart by offending them, but in reality, they did on their own. Same with God and Pharaoh.
This is how one must understand Romans 9 with he co-text of Exodus 7-14 & 1Sam 6:6
True, it would be a contradiction if God actually, literally hardened Pharaoh's heart, but God actually didn't, Pharaoh did it to himself.
You interpret Romans 9 according to your theology/doctrines which make God out to be a sadistic tyrant, commanding one thing but wanting the opposite. Commanding Pharaoh to let HIS people go, but hardening his heart so he couldn't. That is devilish.
Your interpretation of Romans 9 about Pharaoh, has God saying one thing & secretly wanting another; God commanding Pharaoh to free His people but really wanting Pharaoh not to & actually hardening his heart. This is deceptive manipulation,
What do you think that God would stoop to deceptive manipulation just to get the outcome He wants?
The term "I raised you up" in Romans 9:17 has reference to Exodus 9:16 as a co-text, it actually says, "For this sake I keep you alive, in order to make you see My power, and that My name may resound in the entire earth." Exodus 9:17 "And yet you exalt yourself against my people, that you will not let them go?" In verse 17: & 1Sam 6:6 we see the blame on Pharaoh, not God. If God actually dominated & made Pharaoh's heart hard, then God would be responsible & at fault to blame.
God told Moded that in His foreknowlege of Pharaoh hardening his own heart, God told Moses that HE would because He knew from the start that Pharaoh's pride would get in the way and harden his heart.
As I said before, God hardens pharaoh by happenstance, not intentionaly, in the circumstance of the plagues.
God knew Pharaoh would harden his heart & used that situation to HIS advantage.
I apologies, I thought you meant studying other men's interpretation of the Scriptures. Just as other men have systematic theology, such as Finney, I thought you were encouraging him to read these.
I have not studied any other mans theology, but learned what I know from pure Scripture study with correct hermeneutics & exegesis accompanied with prayer for proper interpretation. I do not for the interpretation according to my theology, but I form my theology according to the proper interpretation of Scripture.
The apostles did not have a "special form of personal revelation", they just correctly interpreted the old testament, without our western mindset.
If you heard a Messianic Jew teach, you would be amazed at their understanding.
As for Paul, when he talks about his "thorn in the flesh because of the abundance of the revelations, we don't need to think that they were any more or special than any other who person who studies the Scriptures in prayer. The Apostles wrote scripture because of their authority, not because they had " a special form of personal revelation that we do not have"
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Post by fs on Nov 10, 2008 16:37:58 GMT -5
Uh, excuse me people, but wasn't my post intended as asking advice in dealing with some of these nonbelieving people on the board as I assumed some of you have been dealing with them longer than me, not to become a debate on opposing doctrine?
Can we get back to the subject at hand?
Its eems like you all are too busy fighting over doctrine to worry about the lost? I am sure if any of them log on to this section by chance they will have a great laugh at the diversion seen here. How does this edify Christ?
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Post by tbxi on Nov 10, 2008 17:27:18 GMT -5
logic,
I'm not really offended that you posted my PM to you, but I don't see why you felt so compelled by prespilot to do it. I did not intend to continue this on the forum - not because I am afraid, despite prespilot's newfound mind-reading ability, but because once more than two or three people get involved in a discussion, it becomes too much work to maintain reasonably. Posts grow to be HUGE. It is not as if much of this is new. Most, if not all of the things we're arguing about, have already been said on this forum anyway.
If you want to post our private correspondence on the forum, then post both sides of it.
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Post by prespilot68 on Nov 10, 2008 20:46:41 GMT -5
I did not intend to continue this on the forum - not because I am afraid, despite prespilot's newfound mind-reading ability, but because once more than two or three people get involved in a discussion, it becomes too much work to maintain reasonably. tbxi - it's not that I have a new found mind reading ability its just that God has predestine me to respond to you in such a manner. If your aggrevated don't blame me but........... The real issue you seem to have with these long replies tbxi is that you are overwhelmed by the shear number of scriptures that totally contradict your theology and doctrine. Logic has presented a very logical and reasonable response to your position. He has clearly presented the scriptures in a very clear and concise manner and has not resorted to the scripture twisting or the theological filter you present all of your scriptures through. Maybe the real issue you have tbxi is not with logic but the bible.
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Post by John McGlone on Nov 10, 2008 22:37:33 GMT -5
Uh, excuse me people, but wasn't my post intended as asking advice in dealing with some of these nonbelieving people on the board as I assumed some of you have been dealing with them longer than me, not to become a debate on opposing doctrine? Can we get back to the subject at hand? Its eems like you all are too busy fighting over doctrine to worry about the lost? I am sure if any of them log on to this section by chance they will have a great laugh at the diversion seen here. How does this edify Christ? Good point, about thread control. Welcome back logic and tbxi. FS, My counsel would be not to let the comments of the lost concern you too much. The natural mind is at war with God, how do you think they will treat you, just a servant of Him? If you have shared the whole counsel of God, then they are responsible for what you have shared. If you are witnessing/preaching with the wrong heart toward them, then God will hold you responsible for that. We plant and water seeds, God grants the increase when they submit to His authority.
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Post by logic on Nov 11, 2008 12:41:24 GMT -5
Uh, excuse me people, but wasn't my post intended as asking advice in dealing with some of these nonbelieving people on the board as I assumed some of you have been dealing with them longer than me, not to become a debate on opposing doctrine? Can we get back to the subject at hand? Sorry. One should never "worry" about the lost, for they are without excuse (Romans 1:19-20). We are only to be witnesses of Good news of what Christ has done and said which has the righteousness of God in it, which is revealed out of our own faith toward potential faith.(Romans 1:17) All we can do is: 1: Turn their hatred of God to the humble seeking for mercy of God to save them, & that is only if they really hate Him. 2: Convict them through Gods Holy law or through the thing which the conscience agrees with. 3: If one has no knowledge whatsoever, we must proove to them their doomed state which is their fate without faith & repentance. 4: Persuade the apathetic to care about their fate. 5: Reveal the true God to those who hate God if hatred is misplaced & in error. 6: Make known the true God to those who has never heard of Jesus. All these are is eather plowing, planting, or watering , however, it is in God's hads after our part. He provides the increase through His continuance of what we do in His Name for His Glory.(1Corinth 3:6) Those who have terible theology/doctrines will give the impression that God is a sadistic tyrant, as some do. No wonder the lost think they hate God, for they got their view from terrible theology/doctrines. We must reviel the true God to the lost, if one's theology/doctrines do not give this revelation, how will we persuade the lost. My main focus is to strenthen the church to make it more effective in evangelising and to witness. You did not "btoched witnessing" if you actualy gave them a tract. The tract will say what you did not. We aren't suposed to give an answer to EVERYTHING the lost throw at us. A good reply would be, "we care about the inocent, not the guilty murderers of the inocent." Have you been sinning (purposfuly disobeying/rebeling)? If not, then you are not failing the Lord. You are being faithful, especialy doing all you can in evengelising. Remenber Jesus words in His seemingy "failed times": Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank you, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hid these things from the wise and prudent, and have revealed them unto babes. :26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in your sight.(Luke 10:21) Jesus did not fret over the "Rich Young Ruler" as he went away sorrowful. Jesus didn't run after him worried that HE had offended him. Paul never thought he had "btoched" it all up when they stoned him. Forget the results of the ones you do not see moved by your faithfulness to God.
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Post by fs on Nov 12, 2008 18:10:41 GMT -5
Thank you, brother.
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