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Post by thegooddoctorwho on Nov 11, 2008 17:31:55 GMT -5
Topic explains it all. It was entitled "Questions for Christians" and posted in the correct (world-view debating) forum.
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Post by cervyy on Nov 11, 2008 20:39:08 GMT -5
Maybe they got tired of giving responses that completely avoided the questions presented and just went for the straight forward approach. Trust me, It took me good page and a half to get an answer once about people dying with NO exposure to Christianity ... and even then ... All they did was reiterate that I needed to repent ... and the question wasn't even remotely about me at all. My experience here is they don't answers to OUR questions so they BS them.
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Post by thegooddoctorwho on Nov 11, 2008 23:54:15 GMT -5
I think it's because I asked two questions to which one of the mods had no valid answer. Because it doesn't appear as though there is a valid answer to "Why do you believe in God and not Zeus seeing as neither of them has any proof for his existence?" or any question like it. The fact is, if their parents or whoever didn't tell them to believe in God, they would not believe in him.
If they hadn't been warned about Hell a long time ago, they would not believe in God. If Jesse had heard a (lol) Hellfire and Brimstone preacher for the Hindu faith*, he probably would have become a Hindu.
I asked them what specifically made the Bible more hopeful and aesthetically pleasing than Buddhism. The answer is that nothing does. There is nothing aesthetically pleasing about an angry sky-giant who will burn you alive for eternity if you don't blindly follow him. Who kills people for touching the Ark of the Covenant, even though they were trying to keep the d**n thing from shattering on the ground.
Since, again, there is no proof for any religion's claims, the only reason to choose one is to create a conception of the world that is subjectively satisfying. And since Christianity isn't a particularly nice or hopeful view of the world (unless you're deluded), they can give no reason for why they believe. There is no reason, other than "I'm afraid of Hell", "the Bible says the Bible is true so I believe the Bible", and "my family raised me as a good Christian, and that's what I am by golly!"
All of which are ridiculous reasons to believe or do anything. And they know it. That's the point I was trying to make, and it struck a nerve, because just for a shining moment, it made one of them question his ridiculous worldview. And he hated it. I'll probably get banned just for saying any of this, but honestly, this place is losing its appeal. I came to laugh at Jesse for being a screaming idiot. I stayed because I thought that maybe I'd get something out of discussing theology with the people here. Obviously I will not.
*I realize that concept is a little silly, but it serves its purpose.
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Post by debonnaire on Nov 12, 2008 9:58:59 GMT -5
The fact is, if their parents or whoever didn't tell them to believe in God, they would not believe in him. …. There is no reason, other than "I'm afraid of Hell", "the Bible says the Bible is true so I believe the Bible", and "my family raised me as a good Christian, and that's what I am by golly!" . I wonder why you think to know how the guys here have become Christians ? As for me , I don’t know a single person in my area who has become a believer in Jesus , by the clichés you are presenting here.
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Post by Kureji on Nov 12, 2008 10:37:04 GMT -5
As for me , I don’t know a single person in my area who has become a believer in Jesus , by the clichés you are presenting here. Of course not. No one will admit that they believe in God because they don't want to go to hell. It sounds alot better if they say they were influenced by feeling the holy spirit.
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Post by thegooddoctorwho on Nov 12, 2008 11:37:21 GMT -5
I wonder why you think to know how the guys here have become Christians ? As for me , I don’t know a single person in my area who has become a believer in Jesus , by the clichés you are presenting here. Then tell me how they did, and why they choose to believe that the Word of God is the Bible? The fact is, those three answers I gave, coupled with "I just FEEL like it has to be true!" (*coughit'ssupersubjectivecough*) are the only answers I ever hear. Devoting your life to worshipping a being that you will never see or hear until you are dead is a bit questionable, if you're doing it on a hunch. Recommending that others worship this same being because of a feeling you had, on the threat that they'll go to Hell if they don't, is no longer questionable. In fact, it's certifiably retarded. So, give me a better reason. That's what I was trying to get out of my other post, before someone saw fit to delete it.
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Post by thegooddoctorwho on Nov 12, 2008 16:45:31 GMT -5
And, as a further comment: I happen to know basically why Jesse "turned to God" because it was a major point of his sermon at my university. ;D
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Post by John McGlone on Nov 12, 2008 23:12:36 GMT -5
The FEAR of God is the beginning of wisdom. I believe in the Living God of the Bible because the contrary is impossible!
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Post by thegooddoctorwho on Nov 12, 2008 23:29:26 GMT -5
The FEAR of God is the beginning of wisdom. I believe in the Living God of the Bible because the contrary is impossible! How's so?
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Post by debonnaire on Nov 13, 2008 7:37:22 GMT -5
I wonder why you think to know how the guys here have become Christians ? As for me , I don’t know a single person in my area who has become a believer in Jesus , by the clichés you are presenting here. Then tell me how they did, and why they choose to believe that the Word of God is the Bible? To be clear, I am talking about born again Christians , not of Christians who say they are chistians but have no relation with jesus-Christ. All those who say they are Christians are not Christians , for if someone has not received the Spirit of Christ , he does not belong to Christ , even though he believes that Jesus exists or has a Christian religion. So , of all true born again Christians i know , I don’t know of a single one who has become a Christian by : 1/ fear of hell 2/ by traditions from their parents 3/ by his own will But yeah they have been convicted of sin , and in some cases of judgement , but what has made them come to Christ is the faith that He is the One who not only has paid for their sins , but also that He is risen to redeem them ... Some of the Christians I know, had Christian beliefs before being saved but were unsaved, the others were agnostics... The Gospel of Jesus-Christ is a good news to each sinner individually. The core of the Gospel of Jesus-Christ is about the death of Jesus-Christ for the forgiving of the sinner’s sin and His resurrection for their justification and sanctification. Those I know who have heard about Jesus , and believed He is the saviour for their soul , they turned to Him in repentance and were born again , they got their heart and life changed , transformed by the power of the Holy Spirit , they have received the Word of God and are born of God. That is how you become a Christian…
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Post by thegooddoctorwho on Nov 13, 2008 11:18:41 GMT -5
That's great, but in order for Jesus Christ to be required to pay for your sins, you have to believe that the things that you've done are going to send you to Hell to begin with. You'd also have to believe that there's a God, and you'd have to buy into the Bible's story of what God does and doesn't like for you to do.
Why believe those things in the first place? You can't really just start at "Well, Jesus saved my soul, so I'm a Christian." How do you know that Jesus has the power to save your soul? How do you know that it was necessary for you to be "saved" from something in the first place?
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Post by Kureji on Nov 13, 2008 14:35:16 GMT -5
I believe in the Living God of the Bible because the contrary is impossible! And how exactly is everything impossible? I would have accepted this fair more easily if you would have said improbable.
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Post by joemccowan on Nov 13, 2008 15:03:54 GMT -5
That's great, but in order for Jesus Christ to be required to pay for your sins, you have to believe that the things that you've done are going to send you to Hell to begin with. You'd also have to believe that there's a God, and you'd have to buy into the Bible's story of what God does and doesn't like for you to do. Why believe those things in the first place? You can't really just start at "Well, Jesus saved my soul, so I'm a Christian." How do you know that Jesus has the power to save your soul? How do you know that it was necessary for you to be "saved" from something in the first place? It sounds like you are interacting with your own idea of what is logical. It is not hard to see that you are separated from God, which is why you need to be convinced of His existence. If you were not separated from Him, you would know Him and not have to question the matter. When God became man in the person of Jesus Christ, He bridged the separation between man and God that was created by sin. We know God, because we know Jesus. Just as Jesus came to us from God, as God, Jesus sent the Holy Spirit from God, as God. Because the Spirit interacts with us, we know God. We know the Father and the Son through the Spirit. Until you interact with the Spirit, you cannot know the Son, nor can you know the Father. Creation can testify of God's existence, but you can only experience fellowship with that which you interact with. If you ignore the Spirit, you will never know the Father or the Son. I could have ignored your post and pretended that you did not exist, but instead I read it and now I am interacting with you. Your existence was not dependent upon my interaction with you, and God's existence is not dependent upon your interaction with Him. He is always speaking, but if you ignore His "post", you just miss that interaction, and will never understand what He is saying. That is your choice, He gave it to you. Universal truth is not dependent upon individual experience and denial has no power to make that which exist, non-existent. That being said, willful ignorance is the worst kind of ignorance and usually expresses itself in the form of denial. Just some food for thought. Blessings, Joe
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Post by thegooddoctorwho on Nov 13, 2008 16:31:54 GMT -5
Again, great. But I'm not "ignoring" any signs of God, at least not purposely. What I'm not doing is blindly believing in something just because I was told to by a book (a book that is quite possibly just a Jewish history book, written by men, with some mysticism thrown in), without being given a valid reason for believing that it's the truth.
I've never had an experience (despite having tried several times) with any member of the "Trinity." God has never spoken to me, or seemingly attempted to reveal his presence in any way. If that's not going to happen, then why should I blindly believe in him as opposed to any other "god" that asks me to believe without experiencing it?
You say that my denial of Hell doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Again, just because you tell me that Hell exists doesn't make it so. I'm not saying "I don't believe in Hell, so it doesn't exist." I'm saying "You haven't given me a reason to believe that Hell exists, so I can't really be convinced that it exists. With that being the case, why should I restructure my life to avoid going there just yet?"
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kenm
Full Member
Posts: 173
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Post by kenm on Nov 13, 2008 18:02:00 GMT -5
Do you accept creation as evidence of God and the fact that you have a moral conscience that even without the Bible you know it is wrong to murder or steal?
God has given you evidence and a conscience to know Him, but God knows your heart and you must truly seek Him in His Word.
I would love for God to put a flashing sign in front of me but God uses the still small voice to communicate and sometimes in looking for the big revelation we do not hear the small voice.
God speaks through His Word but if you deny that it is His Word how could He ever communicate with you?
I wish I could let you sample what salvation is like but sadly I can not, not because I do not know salvation but because salvation is worked out with fear and trembling between you and God.
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Post by thegooddoctorwho on Nov 13, 2008 18:54:28 GMT -5
Do you accept creation as evidence of God and the fact that you have a moral conscience that even without the Bible you know it is wrong to murder or steal? The way I see it, there are two possibilities. 1) Everything needs a creator, as Christians often like to say, and so there is something that created all matter and energy in the universe. However, if everything needs a creator, why doesn't the Creator? 2) Not everything needs a creator, and matter/energy have existed forever. In the second case, I would have morals because a) My parents taught me what is right and what is wrong. Granted, they used the Bible as their basis for that, but that also does not make it true. and b) Because no magic would be necessary to create morals. They are just observations about the positive or negative effects of doing things. If I steal, someone goes without. If I lie, someone is deceived. On and on. God speaks through His Word but if you deny that it is His Word how could He ever communicate with you? The line of questioning goes like this. 1. Does God exist? 2. Is the Bible the word of God? Notice which question comes first. Since I can't scientifically answer question number one, I have to base my answer on something else. Since I have ruled out "fear of punishment" and "my parents told me to" as valid reasons to believe in anything, I can't base my answer on that. However, once I've determined whether or not I believe in the existence of deities, I can move on to question number two. Let's say that I do believe that there is something (or more than one thing) with a higher power to affect my life. There are countless books out there which try to explain what that being is, what it wants from me, and what will happen if I disobey. All of them claim to be true. How do I distinguish the Bible from any of them? How do I know that it is the true one?
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Post by joemccowan on Nov 14, 2008 8:27:28 GMT -5
You sound like you are thoroughly agnostic, meaning without knowledge or revelation. If you are truly seeking knowledge, where are you seeking it and whom are you receiving it from?
Everything you have learned, from birth until now, you have learned from either; A) Experience or B) Other people . If you think about it, you have learned far more from other people than you have learned from experience. From the foundational information such as reading and writing to problem solving skills, math and science, most everything that you know comes from other people rather than personal experience. When someone teaches you something that you did not learn or experience, you receive the knowledge none the less. When the day comes that your experience validates what you have been taught, it all makes sense. God is working to bring about mans redemption through people, His Church. This is where such language as "witness" and "testify" come from. This is also why it is so very important for Christians to share their faith.
For years I couldn't understand the Bible. I read it, but I just didn't get it. I was smart and well read but I couldn't seem to get the confirmation that I wanted about whether or not the Bible was much more than a book. I had met plenty of people who were convinced of the validity of scripture and the Christian faith, and I had no reason to doubt their sincerity. I just couldn't seem to get what they got out of the Bible.
One day, after teaching a class on an unrelated subject at work, I remembered what I told a guy who kept asking "Why?", when I just started covering the basics. I told him that the "why" would become apparent later on in class, but before he could understand everything we were going to cover, he had to just trust me on the basics. That evening, on the way home from a continuing ed class I was attending at night, I realized my hypocrisy. I decided I would fully accept the basics and see if the rest made sense along the way. I opened up a Bible (I didn't own one, so I borrowed one) to the first verse; "In the beginning God....". Point by point, verse by verse, concept by concept, I began accepting what I read. Soon, I had that experience that I needed to validate what I had been reading. In retrospect, I can see the Spirit of God working and speaking with me throughout my life. I now know that God didn't give me understanding of the specifics until I accepted and responded to what I did know of the basics. The fear of God was truly the beginning of wisdom for me. As I continue to walk in obedience to Him, He continues to reveal Himself to me. If I stop walking, He stops revealing. Thats just the way it works.
Blessings, Joe
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