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Post by Jesse Morrell on Nov 13, 2008 13:09:10 GMT -5
How is Moral Perfection Attained?
By faith. It is by faith that we overcome. When we trust God, we will obey God. When we trust God, we would have no reason to disobey God. If we do not question or challenge the intelligence of God, and if we do not question or challenge the love of God, we will always obey God. We will know that God only tells us to do what is good and beneficial, and therefore we would never question or disobey what He tells us. Faith in God, in His nature and His character, is how moral perfection is attained.
Remember also, christian perfection is also perfection of the heart. It is not the perfection of the body (physical perfection) or the perfection of the mind (intellectual perfection), but is perfection of the heart (moral perfection). This is simply when we love God supremely and we love our neighbor equally, when we will the highest well-being of all according to their value. Perfection is good-will, a pure motive, a benevolent intention. Love is the fulfillment of the law.
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Post by logic on Nov 13, 2008 13:21:00 GMT -5
How is Moral Perfection Attained? By faith. It is by faith that we overcome. When we trust God, we will obey God. When we trust God, we would have no reason to disobey God. If we do not question or challenge the intelligence of God, and if we do not question or challenge the love of God, we will always obey God. We will know that God only tells us to do what is good and beneficial, and therefore we would never question or disobey what He tells us. Faith in God, in His nature and His character, is how moral perfection is attained. Remember also, christian perfection is also perfection of the heart. It is not the perfection of the body (physical perfection) or the perfection of the mind (intellectual perfection), but is perfection of the heart (moral perfection). This is simply when we love God supremely and we love our neighbor equally, when we will the highest well-being of all according to their value. Perfection is good-will, a pure motive, a benevolent intention. Love is the fulfillment of the law. Also about walking after the spirit & flesh. This is a mental, emotional, and spiritual descision. One can not always walk after the spirit if he is not in prayer and reading God's Word at least dayly. Without such, one is weak and will succumb to the lusts of the flesh.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Nov 13, 2008 13:29:18 GMT -5
Right.
Walking after the spirit = obeying God, living for God Walking after the flesh = obeying your lusts, living for yourself
Walking after the spirit = living intelligently Walking after the flesh = living carnally
Moral perfection is walking after the spirit. Moral imperfection is walking after the flesh.
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Post by logic on Nov 13, 2008 15:15:56 GMT -5
Right. Walking after the spirit = obeying God, living for God Walking after the flesh = obeying your lusts, living for yourself Walking after the spirit = living intelligently Walking after the flesh = living carnally Moral perfection is walking after the spirit. Moral imperfection is walking after the flesh. I agree, however, our ability to make the correct choice is based on the our ections which effects individual choices that we make. The choice that we make will naturally follow our affections. Consequently, if you love yourself or the world more than one commanding you, you will not consistently do things that please the commander. Your decisions are in effected by your affections and inclinations so that you might do what you have favor towards. My point is that if one does not have a good relationship with Christ, he will not have the willingness to consistantly walk after the spirit. A good relationship with Christ is built on prayer and the reading of His Word. If one does not do these consistantly, what do you think his relationshyip with Christ will be like? How esily will he succumb to the flesh?
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Post by Steve Noel on Nov 13, 2008 22:33:41 GMT -5
There seems to be a little word missing from this post...........
G R A C E ! ! ! ! ! !
The holy life is a supernatural life. It can only be accomplished in the Spirit. It is only possible through continual reliance upon God.
Steve
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Nov 15, 2008 13:47:27 GMT -5
No doubt, the grace of God teaches us to live a godly life - Titus 2:11
Without the proper enlightenment of the Holy Spirit, we wouldn't know how to properly use our free will.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Nov 15, 2008 14:01:32 GMT -5
I believe that the Bible teaches what are known as "the three Pelagian graces". These are the necessary graces absolutely essential for living a holy Christian life.
1. The grace of creation: being made in the image of God and therefore having the gift of free will.
2. The grace of revelation: the gift of the law, the gospel, the teachings of Christ, the Holy Spirit.
3. The grace of redemption: the gift of the remission of sins through Christ's blood.
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Post by Steve Noel on Nov 15, 2008 18:35:44 GMT -5
I believe God's grace is one of the most misunderstood concepts in all of Scripture. To many grace simply means "God's unmerited favor" or " God's Riches At Christ's Expense". Yet there's much more to grace than this. After describing the "unmerited favor" aspect of grace in the book God, Man, and Salvation, Richard S. Taylor writes, "The second meaning of grace is just as basic, though frequently ignored. God looks with favor on us in order that he may infuse us with his own moral energy. There is therefore a grace toward us and a grace within us. Grace is intended to change us; it does not leave us where we are... It is a divine energizing through the Spirit whereby sin may be overcome.... (Jn 1:17; Ac 20:32; Ro 5:2, 20-21; 6:14-15; 1 Co 15:10; 2 Co 1:12; 9:14; 12:9; Heb 4:16; Jas 4:6; 2 Pe 3:18)" (pp. 411-412) I love 2 Corinthians 12:9 listed above. The Lord says to Paul, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." (ESV) Here the "unmerited favor" aspect of grace makes no sense. The Lord here equates His grace with His power. Here the emphasis is not on an external grace but rather on an internal power working within Paul to enable him to endure. This aspect of God's powerful enabling grace is essential to attaining moral perfection. In Go and Sin no More Michael Brown gives this illustration and explanation of this aspect of God's grace, "You're living in New York when you receive an urgent message that you must be in London within 24 hours. Obviously, you can't drive a car across the Atlantic Ocean (even if you could, it would take days) and no boat can sail there quickly enough. So, what can you do? You can get on a plane and be in London in plenty of time. The plane can do what you can't possibly do. It flies! It soars seven miles high at speeds of 600 miles per hour. It's breathtaking! But unless you get on the plane, it won't do you any good, and if you decide to jump off the plane in mid-flight, you're dead. That's how it is with grace. Grace does what we can't possibly do. It frees us from sin! It pronounces us righteous! It soars, lifting us into the heavenlies, making us holy. But we have to cooperate with God's grace, believing and receiving empowerment to turn from our sins, and if we jump off in mid-flight, we're doomed." (p. 225) I think this is what Jesus meant when he said, "apart from me you can do nothing" (Jn 15:5) Thank God for his grace toward us and his grace in us!
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edwardchow650
New Member
Exodus 15:2 "I am the LORD, your healer."
Posts: 28
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Post by edwardchow650 on Nov 24, 2008 21:59:26 GMT -5
From my limited understanding, when Jesus said "Be Perfect" in Matthew 5 He may have meant: first to love those who love you, secondly to love those who hate you. Just like God loves those who love him and loves those who hate him
Luke's account of "be perfect" is "be merciful"
Another instance of being perfect to Jesus is the rich young man who would have been perfect if he trusted in God and not in riches.
Another instance of being perfect might be found in James 1 about not showing partiality to people, nor showing partiality to the law. James then goes on to talk about mercy.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Nov 24, 2008 22:15:54 GMT -5
Love is the fulfillment of the law.
Moral perfection is nothing other than benevolence.
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Post by Paul A. Kaiser on Nov 24, 2008 22:47:02 GMT -5
"The second meaning of grace is just as basic, though frequently ignored. God looks with favor on us in order that he may infuse us with his own moral energy. There is therefore a grace toward us and a grace within us. Grace is intended to change us; it does not leave us where we are... It is a divine energizing through the Spirit whereby sin may be overcome.... (Jn 1:17; Ac 20:32; Ro 5:2, 20-21; 6:14-15; 1 Co 15:10; 2 Co 1:12; 9:14; 12:9; Heb 4:16; Jas 4:6; 2 Pe 3:18)" (pp. 411-412) I've got to remember to save that one! It is by God's divine enabling Grace that we [beleivers] are able to mortify sin! - Romans 6:14-15 Great quote Mr. Noel!
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Nov 24, 2008 23:20:12 GMT -5
What does the grace of God "enable" us from? It makes it sound like sinners are cripples, incapable of obeying God. In that case, sinners are to be pitied instead of punished. They would be victims instead of rebels, if they do not have a free will already.
I believe that the grace of God teaches us, but God has already enabled us when He created us. At creation, God made us capable of obeying His law and His Gospel. But at conversion, the grace of God made us willing to obey His law and His Gospel.
The Early Church believed that sinners had a free will, but they also believed that God's grace was necessary for salvation. In that case, the Early Churches view of grace must have been far different than the Augustinian view of grace.
The Augustinian view is that sinners are totally depraved, incapable of obeying God, until they are regenerated by the Spirit, and once they are regenerated then they are capable of being converted, then they have the ability to repent and believe. But where does the Bible ever say sinners are incapable of repenting and believing? Where does the Bible ever say God's law or Gospel is impossible to obey? Where does the Bible ever teach a constitutional regeneration?
Regeneration in the Bible is a change of man's character, not a change of man's constitution. It is a change of man's choices. This change of choice is brought about by the Spirit presenting truth to man's mind, and thus influencing his will.
Regeneration is by spiritual revelation: 2Pet 2:20, 1Pet 1:22, 2Pet 1:2-3, John 6:63, John 6:45, John 8:32, Titus 2:11-12,1Tim 2:4, 1Cor 4:15, Ps 17:7, James 1:18, 1Pet 1:23,James 1:21-22, Rom 2:8,2Thes 1:8 ,John 15:3, 1Pet 4:17, John 17:17,Rom 6:17,
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Post by Steve Noel on Nov 25, 2008 0:53:33 GMT -5
Jesse,
I have to honestly say that I believe this is a major weakness in your theology (and Finney's). This is precisely why Finney was so often accused of being humanistic. You relegate the enabling grace of God solely to creation. That is not a biblical stance. Consider:
Romans 6:14 "For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace."
Grace here is the present enabling power of God to master sin. It's only the Christian who has this gracious enablement.
Acts 6:8 "And Stephen, full of grace and power, was performing great wonders and signs among the people."
Grace here is divine enablement.
2 Corinthians 8:1-2 "Now, brethren, we wish to make known to you the grace of God which has been given in the churches of Macedonia, that in a great ordeal of affliction their abundance of joy and their deep poverty overflowed in the wealth of their liberality."
What is this grace and when was it given? Clearly Paul speaks here of God's present supernatural enabling to be generous in poverty.
2 Timothy 2:1 "You therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus."
What grace is this? The enabling grace of creation? No! This is a supernatural enabling grace that is only for those who are "in Christ Jesus".
Hebrews 4:16 "Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need."
What's this grace that "helps" us? Is it merely that we were created with a free-will? No! This again is God's gracious enabling power.
In these texts, and many more, it can be clearly seen that we NEED supernatural enablement from God. Relegating grace to being created with free-will cannot explain these passages. Unfortunately, this is the unintended consequence of denying original sin.
Steve
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Nov 25, 2008 2:07:27 GMT -5
Steve,
The enabling grace of creation is not the only grace that we have. We also have the grace of revelation: "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that denying ungodliness and worldly lusts we should live soberly, righteously, and godly.." Titus 2:11-12
In creation we were given the ability to obey God, but through revelation we are taught and influenced to obey God. Man is constitutionally capable of obeying God because of creation, but man must be influenced to actually obey God by the grace of God.
Through creation, man was made capable. Through grace, man is made willing.
The Holy Spirit inside of us is the strongest influence we have to rightly use our free will. The Bible teaches much more than just the grace of creation (free will) is also teaches the grace of revelation (through the indwelling Holy Spirit).
Honestly Steve, you greatly misrepresent my view if you think that the only grace I believe in is the grace of creation. Remember the three Pelagian graces that I listed. The Bible teaches more than just the gift of free will (grace of creation). We also have the gift of the Holy Spirit (grace of revelation, comfort, encouragement).
We need the encouraging, instructing, and comforting grace of God. That is what many of those verses are talking about that you listed. That is how we are "strengthened". Not by having our constitution changed, but by the Holy Spirit teaching us things and telling us things that instruct, encourage, and comfort us, thereby helping us to make the right free will choice. That is how we are strengthened by God. He encourages us to rightly use our free will.
Men must also see their need and utter dependence upon the Holy Spirit for correction and conviction (Jn. 16:8), for illumination, enlightenment and instruction (Jn. 6:13, Jn. 15:26), for the strength of encouragement and comfort (Jn. 15:26, Eph. 3:16), for leading and guiding (Rom. 8:14, Gal. 5:18), and for the supernatural power of supernatural gifts (Lk. 24:49, 1 Cor. 12:4-11).
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Post by Paul A. Kaiser on Nov 25, 2008 2:57:25 GMT -5
Jesse, I have to honestly say that I believe this is a major weakness in your theology (and Finney's). This is precisely why Finney was so often accused of being humanistic. You relegate the enabling grace of God solely to creation. That is not a biblical stance. Consider: Romans 6:14 "For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace." Grace here is the present enabling power of God to master sin. It's only the Christian who has this gracious enablement. Relegating grace to being created with free-will cannot explain these passages. Unfortunately, this is the unintended consequence of denying original sin. Steve WOW! My friend just by your handling of Romans 6 demonstrates how much your studies in the original language is paying off! You are by far a worthy challenger! I look forward to a profitable discussion on 1st John! And tangle we will... John are you paying attention?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Nov 25, 2008 3:14:15 GMT -5
"For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under GRACE." Rom. 6:14
GRACE:
"of the merciful kindness by which God, exerting his holy influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues" Thayer
"the divine influence upon the heart" Strongs
It seems clear to me. The grace of God influences us to rightly use our free will. What creation made us capable of doing, grace makes us willing to do. The grace of God is not a change of our constitution (liberating a will from bondage), but the grace of God is a moral influence upon our free will.
God influences our will, by presenting the truth to our minds by the Holy Spirit. This strengthens us, comforts us, convicts us, teaches us, changes us, etc.
Neither Strongs nor Thayers ever defines grace as a force which changes our constitution. Grace changes our character, not our constitution! Grace is not a force that changes our constitution, like Augustine taught. Grace is an influence upon our free will, like Pelagius taught. Once again, Pelagius was right and Augustine was wrong. Not surprised.
The Early Church taught that all men (including all unregenerate sinners) had a free will, nevertheless the grace of God was necessary to bring sinners to repentance and obedience. And the grace of God was necessary to strengthen Christians in the way of right living. That is because the Early Church understood the word "grace" in its original language, in its actual meaning. They understood grace to be the divine influence of God upon the will of an individual. You do not have to take away man's free will in order to make it necessary for man to have God's grace. Free will needs moral influence. So free will and grace can co-exist. God does more than just make us constitutionally capable (free will), but God also makes us morally willing through moral suasion and moral persuasion (grace).
The grace of God brings a change of choice and character, not a change of constitution. Constitutionally, all men can obey God. But morally, sinners are unwilling to obey God. They need a moral influence (grace) to make them willing to do what they are already constitutionally capable of doing.
Back to the original question, "How is moral perfection attained?" Two things are absolutely essential for moral perfection to be attained:
1. Moral ability (free will) 2. Moral influence (grace)
Without these, moral perfection will not and cannot be attained.
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Post by Steve Noel on Nov 25, 2008 12:56:47 GMT -5
Jesse, I apologize. It's not my intention to misrepresent your view. When I said you relegate grace solely to creation I was referencing the post above where you said God enabled us at creation. I know that you have mentioned the three graces thing and was not meaning to exclude them. What do you understand grace to mean in Acts 6:8? "And Stephen, full of grace and power, was performing great wonders and signs among the people." It appears to me that grace here is equivalent to divine enablement. Being full of God's grace and power he was able to perform great wonders and signs among the people. How would free-will or the teaching, illuminating, persuading influence of the Holy Spirit bring about the performing of signs and wonders? The grace and power here mean a supernatural enabling. This is beyond the ability of the natural man.
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Post by Steve Noel on Nov 25, 2008 13:11:30 GMT -5
Hey Jesse, Let me give you another text to consider: 1 Corinthians 15:10 says, "But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me." Does grace here mean divine influence on the will? Paul says he labored hard and then credits this laboring to the grace of God. Doesn't this seem to point to God's supernatural enabling power to do what he could not do on his own? And what about 2 Corinthians 12:9? "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." (ESV) Does grace here mean the influence of the Holy Spirit on the will? It seems to me that this grace is God's enabling of Paul to endure the thorn in his flesh (which I view as the persecution he continually endured). Again, notice that God equates this grace with his power.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Nov 25, 2008 13:12:25 GMT -5
Steve,
Men need natural ability to do natural things. Men need supernatural ability to do supernatural things. Obedience to God is not "supernatural". Obedience to God does not require supernatural ability. But the performance of signs, wonders, and miracles is supernatural and does require supernatural ability.
God gives the gifts of the Spirit. Since these are gifts, they are graces. They are divine empowerment to perform supernatural things.
God gives us these different kinds of graces:
1. Moral Ability (Constitutional free will - grace of creation)
2. Moral Influence (Spiritual influence of the Holy Spirit - grace of revelation)
3. Supernatural Ability (Supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit)
Nowhere is the ability to obey God listed as one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Even before Pentecost, men were obeying the commandments of God. All throughout the Old Testament, after the fall of Adam and Eve, men were obeying the commandments of God. A sinner does not need to be full of the Holy Spirit in order to repent of His sins. But he does need the influence of God if he is ever going to repent of his sins.
God has given us (in the Old & New Testament) the necessary natural ability to obey His law, and God even provides us with the necessary moral influence to obey His law.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Nov 25, 2008 13:15:34 GMT -5
1 Corinthians 15:10 says, "But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me."
I understand this to be saying the same thing as:
"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." Php 2:13
It is talking about the divine influence of God upon our free will.
The grace of God can be "in vain" because some men resist and walk contrary to the divine influence of God. Men resist the grace of God. But when men do obey God, it is because of the divine influence that is in their life.
When men disobey God, is it because their free will resists His grace. But when men obey God, it is because God's grace effectually influences their free will.
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Post by ttoddt on Nov 29, 2008 23:37:49 GMT -5
Does anybody else believe we are born spiritually dead and unable to please God? and the only good thing a unsaved person can do is repent and put there faith in Jesus Christ? (Thats freewill)
Does anyone else believe when a person is saved the holy spirit indwells them and enables them to live a godly life?
To me it sounds like we can be justified before God without Christ. if its possible to obey Gods word from our birth
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Nov 29, 2008 23:51:12 GMT -5
Men are not born dead in sins, they become dead in sins [“dead in sin” means morally depraved and relationally separated from God] when they voluntarily choose to sin: Isa. 59:2, Lk. 15:24; Rom. 5:12, Rom. 5:14, Rom. 7:9, Rom. 7:11, Col. 2:13
Sinners are separated from God for their own sin: Isa. 59:2; Lk. 15:24; Rom. 5:12; Rom. 7:9, Col. 2:13.
If we were born incapable of obeying God's law, we would have an excuse on Judgment Day for our disobedience. But the truth is, we are born with the ability to obey God, but we have all wrongly used our free will.
God is the author of our nature or constitution (Gen. 4:1; Ex. 4:11; Isa. 27:11; 43:7; 49:5; 64:8; Jer. 1:5; Ps. 95:6; 139:13-14, 16; Ecc. 7:29; Job 10:9-11; 31:15; 35:10; Jn. 1:3).
He makes us in His image (Gen. 1:26-27; 9:6; 1 Cor. 11:7; Jas 3:9).
And God gives us the ability not to sin (Gen. 4:6-7; Deut. 30:11, 19; Josh. 24:15; Isa. 1:16-20; 5:4; 55:6-7; Hos. 10:12; Jer. 18:11; 21:8; 26:13; Eze. 18:30-32; Acts 2:40; 17:30; Rom. 6:17; 1 Cor. 10:13; 2 Cor. 7:1; Php. 4:13; 2 Tim. 2:21; Jas. 4:7-10; 1 Pet. 1:22).
If we never choose to sin, we would need no Savior. Only the sick need a doctor (Matt. 9:12).
But all men have chosen to be sinners Gen. 6:12, Ex. 32:7, Deut. 9:12, Deut. 32:5, Jdg. 2:19, Hos. 9:9, Ps. 14:2-3, Isa. 53:6, Ecc. 7:29, Rom. 3:23. Each individual originates their own sin: Matt. 12:35, Lk. 6:45.
Though God’s law is not impossible (Deut. 30:11; Job 34:23; Isa. 5:4; Matt. 11:30; 1 Cor. 10:13; 1 Jn. 5:3), and we are naturally able to obey God (Gen. 4:6-7; Deut. 30:11,19; Josh. 24:15; Isa. 1:16-20; Isa. 55:6-7; Hos. 10:12; Jer. 21:8; Eze. 18:30-32; Jer. 18:11; 26:13; Acts 2:40; Acts 17:30; Rom. 6:17; 2 Cor. 7:1; 2 Tim. 2:21; Jas. 4:7-10; 1 Pet. 1:22; Rev. 22:17), no sinner (Matt. 9:12; Mk. 2:17; Lk. 5:31) can be justified by obeying the law, since present obedience cannot atone for past disobedience (Acts 13:39; Rom. 3:20; 3:28; Gal. 2:16). We are capable of obeying, but our obedience is incapable of atoning for our sins. No matter how much you obey, all you have done is your duty (Lk. 17:10). Therefore obedience cannot be supererogation, so present obedience cannot atone for past disobedience.
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Post by benjoseph on Dec 1, 2008 2:43:42 GMT -5
Can a morally perfect person regret the intelligence of a choice they made with good intentions? Or...Do morally perfect people ever make uninformed decisions?
A couple verses I was thinking about led to this question: In proverbs it says - In all you do get understanding In James it says - If a christian lacks wisdom in anything God will give it to them
If we are commanded to be prudent and wise as serpents, God always makes wisdom generously available, and no one who trusts in him will be put to shame, then how would it be moral perfection to make an unwise choice? Would it be possible to regret a wise choice made with right intentions? Or only possible to dislike circumstance resulting from a morally perfect and wise choice? That wouldn't really be regret then would it?
Can a christian regret something they did?
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Post by benjoseph on Dec 1, 2008 2:50:02 GMT -5
Can a christian regret a choice apart from someone else ruining the outcome of their choice?
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Post by ttoddt on Dec 1, 2008 5:32:18 GMT -5
So people are born morally perfect, but they are not born physically perfect? Why do we not have a perfect body if we havent sinned? After a person sins then repents is he made morally perfect again? what happens when he sins again?
Also what does this verse mean? Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
btw seeing you openair preach is encouraging!
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Post by benjoseph on Dec 1, 2008 11:36:59 GMT -5
these are all questions I've been asking recently.
"Why do we not have a perfect body if we havent sinned?" A butterfly starts out as a caterpillar. A living plant starts out as a dead seed. 1Co 15:42 So also the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. Here is faith and hope before only love remains. I think our perfection requires we be willing to sacrifice everything. Without suffering how could we be tested and approved for eternal life? It says Jesus was perfected by sufferings. Heb 5:8 though being a Son, He learned obedience from what He suffered Heb 5:9 and having been perfected, He came to be the Author of eternal salvation to all the ones obeying Him, Jas 1:4 But let patience have its perfective work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing. Remember the man born disabled so that the glory of God might be revealed in him when Jesus healed him? I think Romans 8 is dealing with this topic too. It seems that passing from corruption to incorruption is how God intended us to be brought into Christ. I don't totally understand it (if that's even possible now) but the ultimate purpose is love.
"After a person sins then repents is he made morally perfect again?" A truly repentant person is committed to obedience. I think the nature of true repentance is deciding to be morally perfect.
"what happens when he sins again?" Why would he sin again? Isn't it like saying "After I join the army, what happens when I disobey my orders?" or "After I get married, what happens... etc" I think that's why circumcision is used metaphorically in the bible. No one would ever do that to themselves unless they were seriously committed like Abraham. Didn't he use a sharp rock? That's pretty serious if you think about it.
But the new testament has a lot about reaching out to a brother who sins. I don't completely understand the guidelines yet though.
"Also what does this verse mean?" Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
"As" judgment came to each man who freely chose to sin "Even so" the free gift may came to each man who freely chose righteousness
Roman's five is making figurative comparisons. Some people think it's talking about "original sin". I did too until recently and it prevented me from properly understanding the figurative comparisons that Paul was making.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Dec 1, 2008 17:14:54 GMT -5
We are born morally innocent. To be morally perfect or to be morally sinful requires personal choice. Since new born babies haven't had the opportunity to make choices, they cannot be born morally perfect or morally sinful. They are born morally innocent.
Infant children are morally innocent (2 Kng. 21:16; 24:4; Jer. 13:26-27; Ps. 106:37-38; Matt. 18:3) and have not yet “done anything” morally “good or evil” (Rom. 9:11) until the age of accountability, which is the age of reason, when they know right from wrong (Deut. 1:39; Isa. 7:15-16), and choose to do wrong (Jas. 4:17).
Physical depravity is hereditary. We inherit bodies that are subjected to disease and death. This is primarily because of Adam's sin which had mankind removed from the Garden. If we still had access to the tree of life, we would not have disease and death.
Physical depravity is not always our fault. Moral depravity is always our fault.
Moral perfection is when a person's heart is right before God. If a person repents of their sins, their heart is right before God. When a person has a motive that is pure, an intention that is benevolent, they are morally perfect. Love fulfills the law.
Their heart is not right with God while they are sinning. They do not have a perfect heart, perfect intention, perfect motive.
The following is an explanation of the passages commonly used in support of the “born a sinner” concept:
I. "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." Ps. 51:5:
A. This scripture is talking about David and his mother. It is not referencing all of humanity. It says nothing about Adam.
B. Taken literally, it is saying that David’s mother was in some sort of sin when she conceived him.
C. A strong case can be made that Ps. 51:5 is talking about the defilement of David’s mother, because of a previous marriage to another man – a heathen.
(1.) David had two half-sisters named Zeruiah and Abigail (1 Chron. 2:13-16).
(2.) The father of David’s half sisters was not Jesse but Nahash (2 Sam. 17:25).
(3.) Nahash was an Ammonite king (1 Sam. 11:1; 1 Sam. 12:12).
(4.) David’s father was Jesse, not Nahash. But the Father of David’s half sisters were daughts of Nahash. This could explain why Nahash showed kindness towards David (2 Sam. 10:2).
(5.) David’s mother was most likely the second wife of Jesse. The first wife of Jesse would have been considered superior to his second wife which had been either the concubine or wife of a heathen king.
(6.) This would explain why David’s half brothers viewed themselves as superior to David, and why David was considered prideful for thinking he was as good as them (1 Sam. 17:28-30).
(7.) This may explain why David was not called before Samuel the prophet amongst the other sons (1 Sam. 16:11).
(8.) David’s mother apparently had a good relationship with the Lord (Ps. 86:16; 116:16). But she would have been, in the eyes of Jewish law, considered defiled by her previous relationship with an Ammonite (Num. 25:1,2; Deut. 7:3,4; 1 Kings 11:2-4, Ezra 9:2; Neh. 13:23,25; 2 Cor. 6:14-17).
D. The context of David’s prayer of repentance is not consistent with David making an excuse for his adultery, “I was born this way”. In true repentance, an individual takes full responsible for their sin, offering no excuses for justification. David was not blaming his sin on his birth. David was simply stating that even the circumstances of his birth were surrounded by sexual sin.
E. David said that he was “wonderfully” and “marvelously” made by God in the womb (Ps. 139:13-14). Therefore, he could not have been sinfully made by his mother in the womb. It is not wonderful to be born sinful or marvelous to be created evil.
II. "The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies." Ps. 58:3:
A. This is a poetic book which verses can be taken figuratively or literally.
B. The context of this passage requires a figurative interpretation.
(1.) The entire chapter is figurative; the surrounding verses are all poetic. It talks of men being like serpents and deaf adders (vs. 4), of God breaking the teeth of the young lions (vs. 6), men melting away like running water (vs.7), God bending his bow to shoot arrows (vs. 7), men passing away as a snail which melts (vs. 8), and God destroying like a whirlwind (vs. 9).
(2.) It says that children speak lies from the womb.
(3.) Infants do not know how to speak as soon as they are born.
(4.) Therefore, this passage is poetic not realistic; it is figurative not literal.
C. The obvious meaning of this passage is that individuals choose to sin at a very early age, from the dawn of their moral agency, and the first sin which children usually commit is lying.
III. “For as by one mans disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.” Romans 5:19:
A. If we are going to apply the first section of the passage unconditionally and universally, we must also apply the second section of the passage unconditionally and universally, since the language for both is the same. If the first section means mankind is universally and unconditionally condemned in Adam, then the second section would mean that mankind is universally and unconditionally justified through Jesus.
B. By Adam’s disobedience of eating from the tree, Adam provided all mankind with the opportunity of choosing to be sinners, since moral knowledge has been granted to all men. A sinner is an individual who voluntarily chooses contrary to their moral knowledge.
C. By Christ’s obedience of hanging on the tree, Christ has provided all mankind with the opportunity of choosing to be saved, since remission of sin has been offered to all men upon condition of their repentance and faith.
D. The word “made” used in these passages is not referring to a constitutional change, but referring to a conditional position which requires the consent of the will. Being a sinner is conditional upon choosing to sin. Likewise, being justified is conditional upon choosing to repent and believe.
IIII. “…by nature children of wrath” Ephesians 2:3:
A. The word nature can describe a man’s God given constitution: (Rom 1:26; 1:31; 2:14; 2:27; 2 Tim 3:3). But this is just dirt and it is created by God. Therefore it cannot be sinful in and of itself.
B. The word nature can describe a man’s self chosen character, custom, habit, or manner of life: (Jer. 13:23; Acts 26:4; 1 Cor 2:14; Eph 2:2-3; Gal 2:14-15; 2 Tim 3:10; 2 Pet 1:4). This is voluntary and has to do with the heart. Therefore moral character, or sinfulness, can belong to this type of nature.
C. The context of this particular passage is talking about a former manner of life, addressing a previous lifestyle. "Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world... among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of the flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind..." Eph. 2:2-3
D. To say that they are “children of disobedience” (Eph. 2:2, 5:6) and “by nature children of wrath” is to say the same thing.
E. That which brings the “wrath” of God is voluntary moral character, not involuntary constitutions.
F. A sinful nature is moral not physical, it is a person’s self chosen character and not his God given constitution. A man’s heart (will) can be sinful, but a man’s body can only be an occasion of temptation. Though continual choices of self-gratification, man has developed a habit of sin.
Praise God!
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