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Post by Jesse Morrell on Nov 24, 2008 12:47:24 GMT -5
I am an open theist and I believe that God is eternal, omniscient, and sovereign.
Eternal: Eternity is endless time, not timelessness. God has always dwelt in time. God has always existed (in time) and God will never stop existing (in time) and therefore God is eternal. He was, He is, and He is to come. God has a past, present, and a future. His past has no beginning and His future has no end. That means He is eternal.
Omniscience: God knows all that there is to know. God has all the knowledge that there is. And since the future consists of multiple possibilities, God knows all of the possibilities. God knows all of the past, all of the present, and all of the possibilities of the future. God knows reality as it is, and since the future is partly open, God knows that it is partly open. Since the future is partly open, if God did not know that it was partly open, God would not be omniscient.
Passibility: We are made in the image of God. The reason that we have emotions is because God has emotions. God is genuinely angry with the wicked. God is genuinely grieved over the lost. God genuinely rejoices when sinners repent. God has real emotions, as the Bible states. These are not just anthropomorphic descriptions, they are descriptions of reality.
Immutability: While the Bible clearly says that God changes His mind, it also clearly states that God never changes His nature or His character. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. God is immutable, His nature and His character is always the same. And because His nature and character are always the same, when circumstances change before God which require God to change His mind about His plans, He willingly does so.
Sovereignty: God is the supreme ruler, who legislates laws and holds men accountable to those laws. The sovereignty of God does not mean that everything that happens is God's will. God is sovereign even though men disobey Him. The sovereignty of God does not mean that God is the ultimate cause of all things (including sin), but that God is the ultimate authority over everything.
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Post by benjoseph on Nov 30, 2008 23:20:29 GMT -5
"Omniscience: God has all the knowledge that there is." In other words the past and the future don't even exist. The past can be remembered and the possibilities of the future can be analyzed.
What does God know about my future thoughts and choices? Sometimes I've felt like things were kinda pointless in a way since God knows all of my thoughts already. Is that why it's so easy for Calvinists to think babies go to hell? Because they feel devalued by God's omniscience? Reminds me of the "eye of sauron" from "the lord of the rings" books. Any thoughts on this?
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Post by emmanuel on Dec 1, 2008 1:14:14 GMT -5
Here are some interesting thoughts and conclusions.......
Eternal is not endless time. there is no such thing as endless time. Time does not exist for God. He created time for mankind. The true definition of Eternity is never beginning nor never ending.
Omniscience is how man wants to see God. We are limited in trying to explain or even understand what true omniscience really is. How would we know what God doesn't know? We have never been able to ask God face to face. To say He knows everything may not be the right way of putting it. Jesus give clues to God not knowing everything. Here is an example in the verse Matthew 7:23.
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you:
For Jesus to say in that (last) day He will not know who these people are is showing us that omniscient is very different in God's eyes. The mystery here is Jesus can only let those He knows into Heaven. But by Jesus not knowing the others show a contradiction in Omniscience.
Passibility does not fit here...because God cannot suffer. And just what is being made in the image of God really mean?
Immutability...God does change. Giving us a New Testament is a big change. For example; God was only interested in the Jews. Then He change and opened up salvation for all of mankind. If He wanted to ...He can send us a third Testament . The only thing that has stayed immutable for God as yesterday and present and future is His Eternity. If we read our Bibles closer ...God has made a lot of changes throughout time on how He has dealt with man.
Sovereignty: God is not the supreme ruler of this world. If he was then things would be a lot different. God does not rule in time. Jesus' Sovereignty will be only in Heaven and the new earth. It was never here since the earth was created.
Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion etc- over all the earth,....
John 18:36. Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world:
And God is the creator of " all things". That includes good and evil...
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Post by benjoseph on Dec 1, 2008 1:25:16 GMT -5
Since love hopes and believes all things, could there be some possibilities that God is not even willing to consider? For instance the child sacrifice that "did not enter his mind"? Obviously he was capable of dealing with it when it happened but maybe he wouldn't even have considered such a thing beforehand? That would mean that there was a whole series of possibilities branching off of that sin that God had not previously considered prior to it being done. And if that was true it would mean that God throughout eternity past had never considered the precise state of things as they are right now (that having happened). I'm watching greg boyd's 13 part video on open theism and he's using the chess player analogy. But there are no options for abominable tragedies and wickedness in chess. So there's no reason to not consider every move. But in real life, with moral choices, you wouldn't consider how to handle finding out your child was a cannibal or something horrible like that unless you had serious reason to consider it. Does that apply to God? God would only consider possibilities for the purpose of love right? It's not like he doesn't control his thoughts. Is God's intelligence and wisdom subordinate to his perfect will? I don't mean to divide God up into parts or anything like that.
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Post by benjoseph on Dec 1, 2008 1:35:56 GMT -5
To sum up that train of thought in a personal way:
Does God even consider the possibilities of all the horrible things we are capable of doing? Or does he reject considering serious error when we have shown faith?
I've been afraid to commit my whole heart to God because of constant thoughts of what if I did this or that after I made a commitment? In my case I'm guilty of cowardice. But if God is not even thinking that way about me (because he is loving and hopeful) then why should I put up with thoughts like that?
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Post by emmanuel on Dec 1, 2008 2:07:45 GMT -5
Love hopes and believes all things....so what does "all things" include? Does love believe in evil and good? Does love believe in the devil and God? The child sacrifice that "did not enter his mind" is another good example of a contradiction in Omniscience.
Omniscience on God's side of the fence may mean He rolls dice at some points. Who can say God never gambles? Therefore; God would also the be creator of chance. God may not have all four Aces...but He is not gonna cheat to obtain them. God may take by what I can call " Honest chances" with all mankind. The New Testament is just that...an honest chance for mankind from God. Freewill is a gamble. Like dice we have to hope we keep rolling right...and God also hopes we keep rolling right. That's God's gamble.....and He also has to understand that not everyone will roll right and understand some will just be lucky.
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Post by debonnaire on Dec 1, 2008 7:59:49 GMT -5
These thoughts are unworthy of believers...
God is omniscient,
in the case of child sacrifice, God is explaining to the Israelites that child sacrifice does not come from Him. Period.
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Post by benjoseph on Dec 1, 2008 10:38:21 GMT -5
"These thoughts are unworthy of believers..."
debonnaire, do you mean the entire thread or something in particular?
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Post by debonnaire on Dec 2, 2008 4:46:41 GMT -5
Not the entire thread, no
but reasoning by "dissecting" everything God has done and said, in the manner of men who haven't the Spirit , can't do anything good to believers. God's thoughts are not man thoughts ....
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Post by benjoseph on Dec 2, 2008 13:06:53 GMT -5
I'm still not sure what specific things you thought were unworthy thoughts.
God is omnipotent. He CAN do anything. God is omniscient. He CAN consider anything.
God is omnipotent. He DOESN'T HAVE TO do everything. God is omniscient. He DOESN'T HAVE TO consider everything.
I'm not saying that God is lacking in awareness. Just that I don't see any reason why He wouldn't be free to choose what he considers.
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