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Post by Jesse Morrell on Nov 26, 2008 17:03:11 GMT -5
MISTAKEN ANTITHESIS & FALSE DICHOTOMY
“I have tried hard to maintain the free choice of the human will, but the grace of God prevailed.” Augustine (Retractations (Retractiones) 2.1 in Augustine: Earlier Writings, ed. J. H. S. Burleigh (Philadelphia: Westminster Press, 1953), (CCL 57, pp. 89-90).)
Are free will and grace really at an antithesis or is this a false dichotomy? Can man's free will and God's grace be reconciled?
GRACE & FREE WILL CONSISTENT & RECONCILED
Grace does not make the incapable capable. Man already has a free will. Grace makes the unwilling willing. The sinners problem is not that he cannot obey God, but that he will not obey God. Therefore a sinner needs moral influence (grace) to make him use his free will rightly.
GRACE DEFINED:
1. "of the merciful kindness by which God, exerting his holy influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues" Thayer
2. "the divine influence upon the heart" Strongs
It seems clear to me. The grace of God influences us to rightly use our free will. What creation made us capable of doing, grace makes us willing to do. The grace of God is not a change of our constitution (liberating a will from bondage), but the grace of God is a moral influence upon our free will.
God influences our will, by presenting the truth to our minds by the Holy Spirit. This strengthens us, comforts us, convicts us, teaches us, changes us, etc.
Neither Strongs nor Thayers ever defines grace as a force which changes our constitution. Grace changes our character, not our constitution! Grace is not a force that changes our constitution, like Augustine taught. Grace is an influence upon our free will, like Pelagius taught. Once again, Pelagius was right and Augustine was wrong. Not surprised.
The Early Church taught that all men (including all unregenerate sinners) had a free will, nevertheless the grace of God was necessary to bring sinners to repentance and obedience. And the grace of God was necessary to strengthen Christians in the way of right living. That is because the Early Church understood the word "grace" in its original language, in its actual meaning. They understood grace to be the divine influence of God upon the will of an individual. You do not have to take away man's free will in order to make it necessary for man to have God's grace. Free will needs moral influence. So free will and grace can co-exist. God does more than just make us constitutionally capable (free will), but God also makes us morally willing through moral suasion and moral persuasion (grace).
The grace of God brings a change of choice and character, not a change of constitution. Constitutionally, all men can obey God. But morally, sinners are unwilling to obey God. They need a moral influence (grace) to make them willing to do what they are already constitutionally capable of doing.
At creation, God has given man moral ability (free will). At conversion, God gives man moral influence (grace).
Again, grace does not make the incapable capable. Man already has a free will. Grace makes the unwilling willing. The sinners problem is not that he cannot obey God, but that he will not obey God. It is specifically that problem that grace solves.
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Post by Steve Noel on Nov 26, 2008 23:38:18 GMT -5
Jesse,
Can you explain / define what you mean by constitution here?
Steve
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Post by Steve Noel on Nov 27, 2008 0:01:10 GMT -5
I've posted this once before, but I thought this would be a good place to post it again. This is What Charles Finney writes in the book Reflections on Revival: “I have thought that at least in a great many instances, stress enough has not been laid upon the necessity of divine influence upon the hearts of Christians and sinners. I am confident that I have sometimes erred in this respect myself. In order to rout sinners and backsliders from their self-justifying pleas and refuges, I have laid, and I doubt not others also have laid too much stress upon the natural ability of sinners to the neglect of showing them the nature and extent of their dependence upon the grace of God and the influence of His Spirit. This has grieved the Spirit of God. His work not being honored by being made sufficiently prominent, and not being able to get the glory to himself of His own work, He has withheld His influences.” (pp. 17-18) While I disagree with Finney (and Jesse) here I do think this word is worth digesting for those who agree with them. Steve
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Nov 27, 2008 0:05:19 GMT -5
A man's constitution is a man's nature. It is his make-up, structure, or composition.
Man's constitution/nature consists of:
1. Spirit 2. Soul 3. Body
Man's nature/constitution has the following faculties:
1. Intelligence 2. Emotions 3. Free Will
When I say that man is constitutionally capable or naturally able of obeying God, I mean that God has already given man the moral ability (free will) which makes obedience possible. I mean that man's nature/constitution already has the necessary faculty which is required for the possibility of obedience.
But a sinner is a sinner because, while they have the ability to obey God, they simply refuse to do so. That is why they are guilty and without excuse. That is why they deserve punishment. If they were incapable of obeying God, they would be cripples. And cripples do not deserve to be punished! Without free will, sin is not their fault, they have an excuse. But if they are capable of obeying God, but do not do so, they are criminals. And criminals do deserve punishment!
A sinner (someone who can obey God but refuses to do so) needs to be regenerated by the Holy Spirit. They are unwilling to obey God and therefore need the grace of God to regenerate them. Regeneration is a moral change. Since it is a moral change it relates to man's moral character. And since it relates to man's moral character it relates to man's choices. Regeneration is not a change of constitution (making the incapable capable), regeneration is a change of character (making the unwilling willing).
Grace is what brings about regeneration. Grace is a moral influence, not a force that creates a new constitutional faculty. And if grace is a moral influence, and grace brings about regeneration, then regeneration must be a moral change, instead of a constitutional change. If grace brings about a moral change (change of choice, since morality relates to choices), then grace must be a moral influence. It must consist in the divine activity of God in persuading man, reasoning with man, presenting motives to man's heart and mind which influences man's will to submit and surrender unto God.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Nov 27, 2008 0:09:44 GMT -5
The whole point of this thread is to show the balance which Finney is talking about. We must properly understand both:
1. Man's natural moral ability (free will) 2. God's supernatural moral influence (grace)
Both of these are operational in the conversion of sinners. And both of these are completely compatible. We must not separate them or create a false dichotomy between them. They are co-existing friends, not enemies. You cannot have one without the other. Free will would not choose without influence, and grace would have nothing to influence without free will.
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Post by Steve Noel on Nov 27, 2008 0:11:03 GMT -5
Thanks for the explanation Jesse. I have another question along these lines that I haven't seen you say much about....
How would you define the image of God in man?
Do you believe "the fall" brought a change to this image in man?
Steve
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Nov 27, 2008 0:15:13 GMT -5
Man is made in the image of God in the sense that man has an intelligence, emotions, and a free will like God does. This is a constitutional image. In this way, even sinners are in the image of God (constitutionally), even though they misusing their intelligence, emotions, and free will.
But when it comes to being in God's image in regards to character, men do not imitate God's character until conversion. In this way, only Saints are in the image of God (morally). They are rightly using their intelligence, emotions, and free will.
But even after the fall of Adam, mankind is still said to be in the image of God:
"Whosoever shedding man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man." Gen. 9:6
"For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God" 1 Cor. 11:7
"Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith, curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God." Jas 3:9
Since it says man is in God's image even while being morally depraved, it must be talking about constitutional image instead of character image. Man still has the constitutional faculties God has given him, even though he is abusing and misusing those constitutional faculties (moral depravity).
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Nov 27, 2008 0:31:21 GMT -5
There are two different views in regards to man's will, grace, regeneration, and conversion:
VIEW ONE:
1. Man's will is not free, but is unavoidably and involuntarily a slave of sin
2. God's grace is a force which liberates man's will from bondage
3. Regeneration is when the grace of God liberates man's will, making it free (constitutional change)
4. Now that man is regenerated (given a freed will) he can be converted (choose to repent and believe). There is a definite distinction between regeneration and conversion. The moral change can occur only after the constitutional change has occurred.
VIEW TWO:
1. Man's will is free but is avoidably and voluntarily serving sin
2. God's grace is an influence upon man's will
3. Regeneration is when the grace of God influences man's will into submission (moral change)
4. Regeneration and conversion are the same event, when the Holy Spirit influences a man to repent and believe the Gospel out of his own free will
We have two options to choose from:
1. Regeneration is the constitutional change of a helpless cripple
2. Regeneration is the moral change of a deliberate criminal
Our view of the constitutional nature of man (free will or a will in bondage) greatly affects our view of grace, regeneration, and conversion.
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Post by Steve Noel on Nov 27, 2008 8:49:18 GMT -5
Jesse, Thanks again for your answer. This is helping me understand your views better. Here's another question (if you don't mind?): You say that God influences our will by presenting truth to the mind by the Holy Spirit. Here is a quote from the Nazarene theologian H. O. Wiley. Tell me if this is an accurate portrayal. "Pelagianism regarded the change effected by regeneration as an act of the human will. Regeneration was not, therefore, a renewal of the will by the operation of the Holy Spirit, but the illumination of the intellect by the truth." (Christian Theology, V.2, p. 415)
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Nov 27, 2008 11:23:38 GMT -5
Steve, I don't think that I understand part of that quote. What does it mean by saying that "Regeneration was not, therefore, a renewal of the will by the operation of the Holy Spirit"?? It is the illumination brought about by the Holy Spirit that changes our will. Regeneration is a moral change. Morality has to do with the will. Therefore regeneration is a change of the will. But this change is brought about by the divine influence of God, specifically by the illumination of the Holy Spirit. That is why preaching the Gospel is a means of saving sinners. The preaching of the Gospel, when it is accompanied by the working of the Holy Spirit, is actually how God brings about a change within sinners. They must know the truth to be set free from their sin. There is a direct connection between the preaching of the Gospel and the regeneration of sinners. REGENERATION DEFINED & EXPLAINED“The work accomplished is a change of choice, in respect to an end or end of life. The sinner whose choice is changed, must of course act. The end to be chosen must be clearly and forcibly presented; this is the work of the third person, and of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit takes the things of Christ and shows them to the soul. The truth is employed, or it is truth which must necessarily be employed, as an instrument to induce a change of choice.” Charles Finney, Systematic Theology, pg 275 “Truth; this must, from the nature of regeneration, be employed in effecting it, for regeneration is nothing else than the will being duly influenced by truth.” Charles Finney, Systematic Theology, pg 275 “Regeneration is nothing else than his embracing the gospel.” Charles Finney, Systematic Theology, pg 276 SCRIPTURAL TEACHING OF REGENERATION THROUGH REVELATION:Because regeneration is the Spirit changing a man’s moral character by influence, and not the Spirit changing a man’s natural constitution by force, the instrument which the Spirit uses is truth to influence the will to change and not omnipotence to force a constitutional change. Regeneration is the changing of a man's heart, that is, his motive and intention, his ultimate reason and aim for living. 2Pet 2:20 “For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world THROUGH THE KNOWLEDGE of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ” 1Pet 1:22 “Seeing ye have PURIFIED your souls in OBEYING THE TRUTH through the Spirit” 2Pet 1:2-3 “Grace and peace be multiplied unto you THROUGH THE KNOWLEDGE of God and of Jesus our Lord, according as His divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, THROUGH THE KNOWLEDGE of him that hath called us to glory and virtue.” John 6:63 “It is the SPIRIT THAT QUICKENETH; the flesh profiteth nothing: THE WORDS that I SPEAK unto you, they are SPIRIT, and they are LIFE.” John 6:45 “It is written in the prophets, and they shall be all TAUGHT of God. Everyman therefore that hath HEARD, and hath LEARNED of the Father, cometh unto me.” John 8:32 “And ye shall KNOW the TRUTH, and the TRUTH shall make you FREE.” Titus 2:11-12 “For the grace of God that BRINGETH SALVATION has APPEARED unto all men, TEACHING US that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present world.” 1Tim 2:4 "Who will have all men to be SAVED, and to come unto the KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH." 1Cor 4:15 “For though ye have ten thousand INSTRUCTORS in Christ, yet have yet not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have BEGOTTEN you through the GOSPEL.” James 1:18 “Of his own will BEGAT he us WITH THE WORD OF TRUTH, that we should be a king of firstfruits of his creatures.” 1Pet 1:23 “ BEING BORN AGAIN, not of corruptible seed, but of the incorruptible, BY THE WORD OF GOD, which liveth and abideth forever.” James 1:21-22 “Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted WORD, WHICH IS ABLE TO SAVE YOUR SOULS. But be ye DOERS OF THE WORD, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.” Rom 2:8 “But unto them that are contentious, and do not OBEY THE TRUTH, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath.” 2Thes 1:8 “In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that KNOW not God, and that OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL of our Lord Jesus Christ.” John 15:3 “Now ye are CLEAN THROUGH THE WORD which I have SPOKEN unto you.” 1Pet 4:17 “For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL of God?” John 17:17 “ SANCTIFY them THROUGH THY TRUTH: thy WORD is TRUTH.” Rom 6:17 “But God be thanked, that ye were servants of sin, but ye have OBEYED from the heart that form of DOCTRINE which was DELIVERED unto you.” ========================== I recommend the following articles/lectures: Moral Ability: www.libraryoftheology.com/freewillwritings.htmlRegeneration: www.libraryoftheology.com/regenerationwritings.html
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Post by Steve Noel on Nov 27, 2008 11:38:20 GMT -5
Jesse, Let me quote again from Wiley and tell me what you think... "Regeneration is a moral change wrought in the hearts of men by the Holy Spirit. This change is neither physical nor intellectual, although both the body and the mind my be affected by it. It is not a change in the substance of the soul, nor is it the addition of any new powers. Regeneration is not a metamorphosis of human nature. Man does not receive a new ego. His personal identity is the same in essence after regeneration as before. He has the same power of intellect, feeling and will, but these are given a new direction. God does not undue in the new creation what He did in the first creation. The change is, therefore, not in the natural constitution of man, but in his moral and spiritual nature. Furthermore, it is important to believe that the whole man, and not merely certain powers of his being, is the subject of this spiritual renewel." (Christian Theology, V.2, p. 419)
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Nov 27, 2008 11:46:25 GMT -5
That is exactly what I believe. I am saving that quote.
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Post by Steve Noel on Nov 27, 2008 11:52:15 GMT -5
I agree with this as well. Wiley calls this the Arminian view of regeneration. What I find interesting is that you agree with this even though Wiley believes in original sin. I can't figure that one out yet.
Steve
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Nov 27, 2008 12:40:23 GMT -5
The Arminian view of original sin is something that I can usually agree with. They teach that we are born with an inclination towards sin. That is pretty much the same thing that Finney taught. Finney taught that we are born with physical depravity which desires to be gratified, and therefore we are born with a bias towards sin. But even though we are born with an inclination or bias towards sin, we still maintain the ability of choice - free will. John Fletcher was an arminian who denied that we were born with total inability but taught that we were born with free will, like the Early Church taught.
The Calvinistic view of original sin is that we are born totally depraved morally and constitutionally, that the sin of Adam has lost our free will (somehow). Therefore they believe in a constitutional regeneration that must occur before conversion can occur. Thus they make a distinction between regeneration and conversion. (The Calvinistic view of original sin also teaches that our nature is itself sinful and because we inherit this sin, we are therefore born under the wrath of God, and we also share in Adam's guilt. Arminians like John Fletcher completely denied all of this).
The doctrine of total inability leads to the view that regeneration is a change of constitution.
The doctrine of free will leads to the view that regeneration is a change of character.
It would be an internal contradiction to believe what we are born with the inability to obey God, yet regeneration is a moral change of our character.
Likewise, it would be an internal contradiction to believe that we are born with a free will, yet regeneration is a constitutional change.
Your premise determines your conclusion in this regard. If your premise is inability, you must conclude a constitutional regeneration. But if your premise is free will, you must conclude a moral regeneration.
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Post by Steve Noel on Nov 27, 2008 23:57:03 GMT -5
"If the substance of the soul were sinful, it would have to be replaced by a new substance in regeneration; but this does not take place." (Systematic Theology, p. 246) These are the words of the highly relied upon Calvinist theologian Louis Berkhof. I think we can all agree with this.
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Post by logic on Nov 28, 2008 14:15:12 GMT -5
Regeneration is a moral change wrought in the hearts of men by the Holy Spirit. This change is neither physical nor intellectual, although both the body and the mind my be affected by it. It is not a change in the substance of the soul, nor is it the addition of any new powers. Regeneration is not a metamorphosis of human nature. Man does not receive a new ego. His personal identity is the same in essence after regeneration as before. He has the same power of intellect, feeling and will, but these are given a new direction. God does not undue in the new creation what He did in the first creation. The change is, therefore, not in the natural constitution of man, but in his moral and spiritual nature. Furthermore, it is important to believe that the whole man, and not merely certain powers of his being, is the subject of this spiritual renewel." (Christian Theology, V.2, p. 419) Sorry, but I don't know how to articulate what's on my mind. Since regeneration is a change of the will, How or what the will brought about by the divine influence of God, specifically by the illumination of the Holy Spirit,; what then changes the will from one direction to the other. IOW, what drives the will to respond the way it does. "He has the same power of intellect, feeling and will, but these are given a new direction" Who's the pioltet the gives the direction? If this has already been answere, please foregive me and repost the answer, thanx
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Post by John McGlone on Dec 6, 2008 10:07:17 GMT -5
Finney said something interesting in His Revival Lectures:
The Bible speaks on this subject, precisely as we speak on common subjects. There is a man who has been very ill. How natural it is for him to say of his physician: "That man saved my life." Does he mean to say that the physician saved his life without reference to God? Certainly not, unless he is an infidel. God made the physician, and He made the medicine too. And it never can be shown but that the agency of God is just as truly concerned in making the medicine take effect to save life, as it is in making the truth take effect to save a soul. To affirm the contrary is downright atheism. It is true, then, that the physician saved him; and it is also true that God saved him.. It is equally true that the medicine saved his life, and also that he saved his own life by taking the medicine; for the medicine would have done no good if he had not taken it.
Simply as I understand it, there are influences at work in the salvation of a sinner. None of these are forced, but are plainly revealed.
1. God the Holy Spirit brings conviction of sin by a preacher, tract, or God's Bible, vision, dream, situation, etc 2. The Truth has been revealed to the mind/heart of the sinner 3. The sinner submits by his own freewill to God's authority and therefore he takes the needed medicine and is thereby saved.
Logic I am not sure this clearly deals with what you are asking, but I thought it worthwhile to the topic as I am trying to better understand all of these things myself.
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Post by benjoseph on Dec 7, 2008 1:22:51 GMT -5
"I have tried hard to maintain the free choice of the human will, but the grace of God prevailed."
Yuck! That sounds satanic.
There was a comedy sketch I saw once where a blind black man in the south was a leader of a KKK group (they never knew he was black cause he always wore the white hood at the meetings). He was a militant racist and did not know that he himself was black. When he found out that he bore the image of that which he hated he killed himself in his warped zeal. Obviously that's not really funny. But it sounds exactly like this Augustine quote.
People hate God so much that they hate that they are made in his image and with "what little they have" (the reluctant knowledge of free will that is unavoidable) they put themselves to death (spiritually). That part of the quote "but the grace of God prevailed." That's just the white hood of false humility they put on to cover up the nature they are ashamed of. But it is God's image they reject at the cost of their own lives.
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