|
Post by Jesse Morrell on Nov 29, 2008 21:22:26 GMT -5
Does God "repent" or doesn't He?Ray Comfort "And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart" (Genesis 6:6). CONTRADICTION: "God is not a man that he should lie; neither the son of a man that he should repent" (Numbers 3:19). EXPLANATION: God is without sin, so any references to Him and repentance merely mean "a change of mind." There are at least twenty-six references to God repenting, and every time it is used it is in a context of changing His mind or purpose in punishing or rewarding a person or group of people. However, man is sinful and when the Scriptures speak of man repenting it is in reference to him changing his mind and turning from sin. It mans to "confess and forsake" his sins. Numbers 3:19 is saying that God is not like a man, who needs to repent of lying. He can be trusted to keep every promise He makes. Source: raycomfortfood.blogspot.com/2008/11/does-god-repent-or-doesnt-he.html================================= ================================= Here are my thoughts on this issue that Ray brings up: If God has the ability to change His mind:1. God experiences a linear existence of succession. He experiences a "before" and "after". 2. The future is not exhaustively settled in God's mind. 3. The future is changeable. It is not an eternal fixity. 4. God's will can choose between alternative possibilities, and consequently the future consists of multiple possibilities. 5. God has a free will, He can choose between multiple alternatives.
|
|
|
Post by Jesse Morrell on Nov 29, 2008 21:44:11 GMT -5
* God speaks of the future in terms of what may or may not be: Ex. 3:18, 4:9, 13:17; Eze. 12:3
* God changes His plans in response to changing circumstances: Ex. 32:10-14, Jer. 18:1-10
* God's willingness to change His plans is considered one of His glorious attributes: Jonah 4:2; Joel 2:12-13
* God tests people to see what types of decisions they will make: Gen. 22:12; Ex. 16:4; Deut. 8:2, 13:1-3; 2 Chron. 32:31
* God has had disappointments and has regretted how things turned out: Gen. 6:6; 1 Sam. 15:10, 15:35
* God has expected things to happen that didn't come to pass: Isa. 5:1-5; Jer. 3:6-7, 3:19-20
* God gets frustrated and grieved when he attempts to bring individuals into alignment with his will and they resist: Eze. 22:29-31; Isa. 63:10; Eph. 4:30; cf. Heb. 3:8, 3:15, 4:7; Acts 7:51
* The prayers of men have changed the plans of God: Ex. 32:10-14; Num. 11:1-2, 14:12-20, 16:16:20-35; Deut. 9:13-14, 9:18-20, 9:25; 2 Sam. 24:17-25; 1 Kin. 21:27-29; 2 Chron. 12:5-8; Jer. 26:19
* God is said to have repented (changed His mind) multiple times in the Bible: Gen. 6:6-7; Ex. 32:12-14; Num. 23:19; Deut. 32:36; Judges 2:18; 1 Sam. 15:11, 15:29, 15:35; 2 Sam. 24:16; Ps. 90:13, 106:45, 110:4, 135:14; Jer. 4:28, 15:6, 18:8, 18:10, 20:16, 26:3, 26:13, 26:19, 42:10, Eze. 24:14, Hos. 11:8, 13:14; Joel 1:13-14; Amos 7:3, 7:6; Jonah 3:9-10, 4:2; Zach. 8:14
* Prophecies are often God foretelling what He Himself will later bring to pass. So they have to do more with God's omnipotence then His omniscience: Gen. 3:15; 1 Kin. 8:15, 8:20, 8:24, 13:32 (with 2 Kin. 23:1-3, 15-18); 2 Kings 19:25; 2 Chron. 1:9 (1 Chron. 6:4; 10, 15); 2 Chron 36:21-22; Ezra 1:1; Isa. 5:19, 25:1-2, 37:26, 42:9 (with vs. 16); Jer. 29:10, 32:24, 32:28, 33:14-15, Lam. 3:37; Eze. 12:25, 17:24, 33:29, 33:33; Dan. 4:33, 4:37; Acts 3:18, 27:32-35; Rev. 17:17
* Scriptures that say God has a past, present, and a future: Rev. 1:4, 1:8, 4:8
* Scriptures that say God’s eternity is endless time, that is, time without beginning or end: Isa. 9:6-7; Isa. 43:10; Isa. 57:15; Job 36:26; Dan. 4:34; Hab. 1:12 Ps. 23:2; Ps. 90:2; Ps. 102:24; Ps. 102:27; Lk. 1:33; Heb 1:12; Rev 1:4; Rev. 1:8; Rev. 4:8; Rev. 5:14;
* Scriptures that say man's eternity is endless time: Isa. 45:17; Eph. 3:21; Rev. 14:11;
* Scriptures that say eternity is endless time for Heavenly creatures: Rev. 4:8
* Eternity is time without end (endless time instead of timelessness): Isa. 9:6-7; Isa. 43:10; Isa. 57:15; Job 36:26; Dan. 4:34; Hab. 1:12 Ps. 23:2; Ps. 90:2; Ps. 102:24; Ps. 102:27; Lk. 1:33; Heb 1:12; Rev 1:4; Rev. 1:8; Rev. 4:8; Rev. 5:14; Isa. 45:17; Eph. 3:21; Rev. 14:11
|
|
|
Post by Jesse Morrell on Nov 29, 2008 23:30:30 GMT -5
Six solid cases of God changing His mind:
1. God repented of making mankind (Gen. 6:5-6). He didn't create man to sin, so He regretted making them when He saw how they were sinning.
2. God said He would destroy mankind from the face of the earth (Gen. 6:7). "But" Noah found grace (Gen. 6:8) and therefore mankind survived. God changed His mind.
3. God was going to destroy Israel and make a great nation from Moses (Ex. 32:10). But God changed His mind (Ex. 32:14)
4. God repenting of making Saul the King (1 Sam. 15:11). Saul's kingdom would have lasted forever (1 Sam 13:13) but God changed His mind.
5. Nineveh was going to be destroyed in precisely forty days (Jonah 3:4) but God changed His mind (Jonah 3:10).
6. Hezekiah was going to die instead of recover (2 Kings 20:1; Isaiah 38:1), but God changed His mind (2 Kings 20:6; Isaiah 38:5).
Very clearly, the future is not an eternal fixity. God can change it whenever He wants. The future has multiple alternative possibilities that the free will of God can choose between.
|
|
|
Post by joeldad on Nov 30, 2008 1:31:41 GMT -5
Surely Ray realizes the implications of saying that God can have a "change of mind." This is an interesting development.
|
|
kenm
Full Member
Posts: 173
|
Post by kenm on Nov 30, 2008 15:08:24 GMT -5
Maybe Ray has been reading the posts on the board and listening to the Refining Fire Radio broadcasts.
|
|
|
Post by benjoseph on Nov 30, 2008 22:09:12 GMT -5
Just some thoughts. Sorry if this is off topic. (this time thing is new to me) I've always heard "God is outside of time" But this stuff is really interesting. How could God be "outside of time" if he is longsuffering? Doesn't longsuffering require time? Also without time there cannot be any verbs. If God can DO anything it means he is "in" time in a sense. I don't think that God is bound by a dimension of time though, like a prisoner. The existence of time must be an expression of God's character in some way. Time and Love must be closely related. I don't want to say that love is dependent upon time because it sounds like it belittles God. Maybe love would not even consider not dwelling in or experiencing time because it serves the purpose of love. Maybe love is glorified by time. Like how older couples celebrate 50 years of marriage and everyone feels warm and fuzzy about it.
|
|
|
Post by Jesse Morrell on Nov 30, 2008 22:28:17 GMT -5
If God is outside of time, God is:
1. Thoughtless 2. Emotionless 3. Powerless
Succession is required to have thoughts, emotions, or to make decisions. To say that God is in time does not limit God, it liberates God! But to say that God is timeless is to bind God and make Him an inactive frozen statue!
If God was outside of time, He could never enter into time, because that would be a succession.
If God was not in time, God could not create anything (including creating time) because creation is a succession.
All events must occur in time. If God ever thinks, feels, decides, or acts, He must be in time.
Time cannot be a creation of God. Time must be a natural attribute of God. God is naturally eternal. His past has no beginning, His future has no end.
|
|
|
Post by benjoseph on Nov 30, 2008 22:35:09 GMT -5
"Time must be a natural attribute of God" Excellent. That's helpful. Is there any direct scripture that deals with this? I know it seems obvious. I just think there would be something direct about it being an "attribute" of God.
|
|
|
Post by Jesse Morrell on Dec 1, 2008 16:39:03 GMT -5
Isa. 9:6-7; Isa. 43:10; Isa. 57:15; Job 36:26; Dan. 4:34; Hab. 1:12 Ps. 23:2; Ps. 90:2; Ps. 102:24; Ps. 102:27; Lk. 1:33; Heb 1:12; Rev 1:4; Rev. 1:8; Rev. 4:8; Rev. 5:14
The Bible says that the "years" of the Lord will never fail.
It also says that He was, is, and is to come. Was = past. Is = Present. Is to come future.
God has a past, present, and a future. His past has no beginning and His future has no end, He is eternal. "Eternal Time" is an attribute of God's nature.
|
|