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Post by benjoseph on Dec 26, 2008 22:08:30 GMT -5
I've heard it said that God is outside of time. I've also heard it said that we are inside of time. These statements both assume that time actually exists. If time does not exist then we can't be "in" it and God can't be "outside" of it. Here's a short essay that deals with the "nature of time" and some extra notes that were excluded. It also references and solves (but does not define) a few philosophical riddles sometimes called Zeno's ParadoxesIf time does not exist then the sentence "God is outside of time." would not have a truth value (either true or false) just like the sentence "This statement is false." lacks any truth value. **NOTE: Time not existing does not mean there is no change! If there could not be change it would be the same as being "frozen in time."**
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Post by logic on Dec 27, 2008 13:26:17 GMT -5
I've heard it said that God is outside of time. I've also heard it said that we are inside of time. These statements both assume that time actually exists. If time does not exist then we can't be "in" it and God can't be "outside" of it. Here's a short essay that deals with the "nature of time" and some extra notes that were excluded. It also references and solves (but does not define) a few philosophical riddles sometimes called Zeno's ParadoxesIf time does not exist then the sentence "God is outside of time." would not have a truth value (either true or false) just like the sentence "This statement is false." lacks any truth value. Time is a measurement of sequences based on the onlooker's position &/or velocity. All mankind are in this concept which we call time. God is in a dimension where time is irrelevant, having no probative value upon any issue in the case. However, since God created, he is bound to work in time which He created. We can only see God through time, for example: We say, "When God did such & such". In eternity, it will be like sleep, for example: You go to bed at night and you fall asleep. When you wake up in the morning, it only seems to be a few moments from when you went to bed. However, during your time asleep, you dreamed many things which took hours to happen. In eternity, you may do something when you first get there, then the proverbial "billions of years later" you will bring it up to your mind and it will only seem like a moment ago. Another example would be as when you sit down to fellowship in eternity, it will seem as if it lasted forever, but then again only for a moment. This concept of time is only for when it is relevant or applicable. In eternity, time will not apply because it will not be useable, it will not work, it will not function as we know it, we will not be able to utilize it as we do now. Since we measure time basically on the speed of light, the physics of velocity has a factor. In eternity, physics may not apply as we know them.
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Post by benjoseph on Dec 27, 2008 15:19:39 GMT -5
1) "Time is a measurement..." 2) "All mankind are in this concept which we call time." 3) "God is in a dimension where time is irrelevant..."
response:
1) sounds ok 2) No. You can't be in a concept. 3a) What is a dimension? 3b) What does it mean for someone to be IN "a dimension"?
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Post by benjoseph on Dec 28, 2008 14:11:28 GMT -5
Which is more impressive? a) God can view "all times" as if the whole universe is on "pause" and thus fulfill prophecy b) God experiences time as it happens and fulfills prophecy
Or who is more powerful? a) A God who is able to accomplish His will BECAUSE He knows the future b) Or a God who can define the future BECAUSE He is able to accomplish His will
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Post by logic on Dec 28, 2008 15:12:21 GMT -5
2) "All mankind are in this concept which we call time." 2) No. You can't be in a concept. No, but we use the concept. We are not in time, but it is measurement of sequences. Physics. any of a set of basic kinds of quantity, as mass, length, and time, in terms of which all other kinds of quantity can be expressed; usually denoted by capital letters, with appropriate exponents, placed in brackets: The dimensions of velocity are [LT−1]. It means that you are in that which is being measured. You are three dimensional. Therefore, you are in the dimension that has three triangulated measurements. As for time, we are in a dimension that is measured by sequences of events.
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Post by benjoseph on Dec 28, 2008 18:29:10 GMT -5
that definition equates a dimension with a set of units of measurement units of measurement are not physical things neither is a dimension you could say that someone lives in an acre but an acre is just an abstract concept, like an inch, or a minute these are just concepts not actual entities (an acre is just an idea, land is real, not acres) they are relative you can not exist inside of or outside of a relative concept rather concepts "exist" inside of us We are not "in time" - time is "in us" God is not "outside of time" because time is just a concept The concept of time does not change our perception of events it is only a concept I could have a concept of everything being red in color but it wouldn't make everything actually look red to me, even if I strongly believed it, my eyes would still tell the truth. Our experience of change is not an illusion, the illusion (or DE-lusion) is the idea that we are flowing through a dimension called time. We're not flowing anywhere though because you can't flow through an idea that doesn't actually exist.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Dec 28, 2008 18:48:43 GMT -5
Time is the succession of moments.
If God was "timeless" than God could not have thoughts, feelings, decisions, or actions. All of these require succession. If God were outside of time, God would be thoughtless, emotionless, decisionless, and actionless. God would be frozen. All activity requires succession.
Succession could not be a creation of God, since creation itself is activity and therefore requires succession to already exist. The creation of anything requires succession, since creation is going from non-existence to existence (this is succession). Going from A to B is succession. Going from non-existence (A) to existence (B) is succession. Therefore creation is impossible without time. Therefore time cannot be a creation of God.
If God was outside of time, He could not enter into time, because entering into time would be a succession itself. And it would also be activity.
Eternity is a natural attribute of God. That means God has an eternal duration of succession. His past had no beginning, His future has no end. Time is not a creation of God, time is a natural attribute of God. God has a past, present, and a future - He was, is, and is to come. His years will never fail.
The past no longer exists. The future does not exist yet. God lives in a perpetual "now". God has an eternal linear existence.
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Post by benjoseph on Dec 28, 2008 20:02:31 GMT -5
I agree with this Jesse. God is love, love without duration is no love at all, therefore God must intrinsically endure. That's really the important part is that God is not simply an abstract, transcendent omni-dimensional being but He is Living, ING = present tense. He's not the "to live" God, but the living God.
Now, won't someone say that since God is not bound by time that He would not have to "have time" in order to create time? I was thinking what you said also, that God wouldn't have had any time to make time. It's kinda funny. But I imagine someone would counter that by saying God does not require succession in order to create since He transcends all moments. It's kind of applying rules that don't exist yet. Anything "before" time would simply transcend time rather than be "before" it. There was no before before time. It would incomprehensible and I think the Roman catholics believe such to be the case, apparently the arminianists also. It would be considered another mystery, like the catholics call the trinity a mystery. "God's outside of time, it defies all temporal logic, the end." Well, I don't know if I can really argue against that except by pointing out God's attributes which would probably be countered with saying that our concepts of patience, emotions, thoughts, etc. are merely temporal analogies for God's transcendent characteristics which we can not fully grasp except by the scriptures that we must interpret as being temporal analogies.
Also "Time is the succession of moments." assumes that there is more than one moment. There is only one moment without any boundaries. There are no plural moments. The perpetual "now" idea addresses this though. In this one infinite "moment" change is occurring. There is no flow through a linear system or dimension (series of moments) though.
It seems like we agree on the important part! What do you think about the rest? Do you see what I mean about those arguments and the other contradictions?
It's kinda funny, I used to think about stuff like this so much when I was kid, it was one of my favorite things to ponder and I never could figure it out but now I'm studying it because I want to know about God and how He relates to us. How cool is that?
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Post by logic on Dec 29, 2008 10:00:40 GMT -5
that definition equates a dimension with a set of units of measurement units of measurement are not physical things neither is a dimension you could say that someone lives in an acre but an acre is just an abstract concept, like an inch, or a minute these are just concepts not actual entities (an acre is just an idea, land is real, not acres) they are relative you can not exist inside of or outside of a relative concept rather concepts "exist" inside of us Time is not an actual entity, not physical. It is a mesurment as an acre is. That is wrong. If you can walk acrossed an acre, then you can "flow through" or live out through time. Time is a mesurement, and you can not live in a dimention that is not mesurable by time.
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Post by benjoseph on Dec 29, 2008 14:10:05 GMT -5
What did I mean and why am I wrong?
A measurement is a comparison. Comparison can only occur in a mind. Time is like comparing memories to experiences. Land is real. An acre is not. An acre of land is a specified plot of land that exists. An hour of time is not a specific plot of anything that exists. It's a specific plot of idea.
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Post by logic on Dec 29, 2008 14:37:06 GMT -5
What did I mean and why am I wrong? A measurement is a comparison. Comparison can only occur in a mind. Time is like comparing memories to experiences. Land is real. An acre is not. An acre of land is a specified plot of land that exists. An hour of time is not a specific plot of anything that exists. It's a specific plot of idea. You take up space. The volume of space you take up is measured. You are in the space that is measured called liters or cubic meters. Or you are in so many liters of space. You are in the sequence of events that is measured called time. Or you act in so many measurements of time. It took me to type all this in about 5 minutes of time.
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Post by benjoseph on Dec 29, 2008 15:23:53 GMT -5
haha, this is funny. You can't be in something that has no boundaries "a space" only has imaginary boundaries. I can be in a room, cause a room is real. Space doesn't exist, things exist. "take up space" is language, not physics. Just because we have a phrase does not make a new rule of physics. You were never IN five minutes of anything. You counted five minutes or did the math from a clock. It's just counting, it doesn't mean you are IN something just because you can count. this is cracking me up. (not literally, I'm just laughing)
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Post by logic on Dec 29, 2008 16:42:37 GMT -5
haha, this is funny. You can't be in something that has no boundaries "a space" only has imaginary boundaries. I can be in a room, cause a room is real. Space doesn't exist, things exist. Drop a rock in a cup of water, the rock takes up the space in the cup & the water can not be where the rock is, so the water overflows. It overflows because it is using up more space. It is physics. Mass has to take up space. My wife called, said she will be here IN five minutes of time. With In the boundries of zero to 300 seconds. Maybe that is what we'ere getting stuck on. I'm talking boundries as in the boundries of time. Your stuck on time being Something can be IN the boundries of a foot. Mass is IN the boundries of liters or something of the sort. We are in the boundries of time God in in the boundries of time.
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