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Post by Steve Noel on Dec 28, 2008 15:20:12 GMT -5
This question is especially for those of you who believe that Christians should be assembling on the Sabbath. I just read the article by Jack Jackson entitled The Sabbath - Come Let Us Reason Together found here: www.ministerwhereyouare.org/Articles/The%20Sabbath%20Come%20Let%20Us%20Reason.htmIn this article Jack writes: "The Hebrew calendarr doesn't use our Pope Gregory months, but it's months are from one new moon to another. Obviously this is God's calendar, the one He will have forever with us, and definitely with Sabbath being sundown to sundown, as God recognizes days. These passage really caused me to think, and should cause us to examine the issue of Sabbath and see if Sunday (midnight to midnight) worship and rest is actually a "traditions of men" changed by the Catholic Church, without His authority, as they also did the 10 Commandments. The changed times, dates and laws, which is clearly why the early church saw the Papal system as the "antichrist". A switching to Sunday worship and other paganized holidays were not intended by God for His Church at all." This same claim that the Catholic Church changed the day of worship is made by the SDA church. Where does this information come from? I will post some points that I think refute this in the future but for now I would like to see where this claim is coming from. Steve
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Post by messengermicah on Dec 28, 2008 16:15:12 GMT -5
Right after the resurrection the believers began assembling on the first day of the week.
Acts 20:7
John 20:19
1 Corinthians 16:2
The Sabbath is the seventh day.
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Post by Steve Noel on Dec 28, 2008 16:33:52 GMT -5
Micah,
It's good to see you wandering into the theological discussions a little. Dan's gone so you might be able to express some thoughts without being slammed for it.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Dec 28, 2008 17:49:38 GMT -5
Right after the resurrection the believers began assembling on the first day of the week. Acts 20:7 John 20:19 1 Corinthians 16:2 The Sabbath is the seventh day. You think that Sunday is the Sabbath or that it is just now the day that Christians typically have services?
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Post by jackjackson on Dec 28, 2008 21:26:04 GMT -5
Since you posted a link to my article, and since many hear like to reference Acts 20:7, please consider the following article I wrote specifically about Acts 20:7, proving again that we Christians don't have a background in Hebrew ways, so we misunderstand many of Pauls writings (2 Peter 3:16). As I have been studying the Hebrew ways of Jesus' days, I see how our father's inherited lies (Jer. 16:9) and have passed them to us. The Didache, a documet with church teachings, shows how the transfer from a Judaism lead later to what we call the "church". Initially when Christ came, all stayed in the single church/synogouge together, just as Pharisees and Saducees had done for years, even though they had major differences. There was still only God, one Temple, one baptism (Michvah), and one faith.
But remember Jesus told them they would be thrown out of the synogouge, and eventually they were. This group kicked out was a mix of Jews and Gentiles which believed Jesus was Messiah. The didn't leave because they disagreed on God's appointed times (moedim) but because of Messiah. Please consider the article below, and do some research to see if the end of Sabbath doesn't end in Judaism with a Havdalah service. My family and I have ended Sabbath that way now for a year. It is common to gather with Brethren to do the service which means "separation" because it is commanded in Torah to make a distinction between that which makes Holy, and the other profane (oridinary) days.
When And Why Did They Meet In Acts 20:7? Properly Understanding First Day of The Week By: Jack Jackson - MinisterWhereYouAre.org
Have you ever even considered why Paul and the disciples meet on the supposed first day of the week in Acts 20:7? Were you taught this was evidence that the Apostle's moved the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday? Now that I am studying the Old Testament and history at that time from a point of view of the early church follower, predominantly Jewish, I now see that my lack of historical context and prejudice allowed me to believe something without any basis in fact.
For instance, I now see that in Acts 20:7 the King James says "And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech unto midnight", does not make sense unless we understand it through a Jewish perspective.
Please notice that day is added to the text when the Greek did not have the word day. This is why many Bibles italicize the word day. Why was it added? They were thinking like Gentiles when they translated it, with a Roman calendar and days that started midnight to midnight.
Please understand for historical context that then, as is still done today in Judaism, at the end of Sabbath (sundown Saturday), believers came together to celebrate the Havdalah, as Jesus and Paul and all the Apostles would have done all their lives. This is a weekly service that closes the appointed time of Sabbath, and concludes the transition from Holy (weekly seventh day) back to profane (6 days). This is hard to see in our time because a day now is midnight to midnight, but the transition of their day was sundown. So what does Acts 20:7 actually say?
And upon the beginning of the week (at sundown Saturday), when the disciples came together to do Havdalah (a service that made a transition to the profane and included the Kiddish or breaking of bread), Paul preached unto them ready to depart on the morrow (Sunday morning); and continued his speech until midnight (midnight between Saturday and Sunday).
So Paul left at sun up to travel on Sunday morning. It was not a holy day at all to Paul, but a travel day for Paul. He and the believers kept Havdalah and Kiddish, as was their custom all their lives, closing out the Sabbath which is a Mitvot or command (1 of 613) in the Torah. Their Havdalah service would have been about 7 or 8 PM based on the time of the spring feast that Paul was heading to (Shauvot v. 16) and had just celebrated (First Fruits v. 6) , so he preached 3-4 hours at it was then midnight. After the boy fell out the window and they recovered from all that commotion, he preached until sunday morning and then they all went to "church" right? NO! He saw Sunday morning as the first profane day of the week and traveled on it.
Paul kept and demonstrated to the believers in Troas that he kept the Sabbath and Torah, even the finer matters like separating the Holy and Profane days of the week by bringing together the believers for Havdalah services before leaving on his travel day, Sunday.
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Post by jackjackson on Dec 28, 2008 21:42:48 GMT -5
John 20:19 is the same situation. We get confussed because we think the day ends at midnight, failing to remember that God ends a day and starts another at sundown. Again in John 20:19, they came together at the start of the week, to actually clse out Sabbath. It would have been Saturday at sundown. Though now scared, they were not doing anything which hadn't been common, the Havdalah service. They were not starting somethung new.
1 Cor 16:2 is about when to collect money. They were to pay the tighe on any other day than Sabbath. All that verse was asking was that they honored the sabbath, by making sure they collected money and "did business" if you will on a non sabbath day.
I hope this helps!
I am not a SDA, but my family and I realized we had been sold lies of our fathers. The Catholic Church admits and even is prideful that they are the ones who switched the church to Sunday. They believe it was in their power to do, as Vicor on earth.
This wouldn't we such a confusing thing if we hadn't had our days and times changes also. This change of days (midnight to midnight) makes reading Acts 20:7 and John 20:19 go right over our heads. Note that day is in italics, added to the text by translators who didn't understand Hebrew customs welle enough to know this. Anti-semetism was very high during the time of the reformation because many who came out of the Catholic Church (they were all from it) came out with the same Jew hating spirit. They always blamed Jews for Jesus death, rather than only blaming the ones that wanted Him dead. Many Jews loved Him like His Apostles and most of the early church until multitudes of Gentiles became greater than numbers of Jews. Jews kept the Word of God preserved from Moses, praise God.
The Sabbath was given by God and no one has the authority to alter it. God would never consider changing any of the other 10 Commandments, so why would we believe He would change the Sabbath? It makes as much sense and God deciding to make lying OK now that Jesus came. God forbid!
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Post by Steve Noel on Dec 28, 2008 21:50:17 GMT -5
Jack,
The Catholic Church also claims that they determined the canon of Scripture, that they can forgive sins, that they are the only true church, etc. etc.
My question is a historical one. When exactly did this change take place? Was it immediately after the apostles died? Was it centuries later? What evidence is there to back up this claim?
Steve
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Post by messengermicah on Dec 28, 2008 22:10:08 GMT -5
Steve,
Thank you and I appreciate your noticing my constantly being slammed by Dan in the past.
Actually though the reason I have been on more threads is because I have more access to the computer and the internet at this time and also more time period because the campuses are closed. Usually I must go to a public library but my location right now I have constant access.
Dan had nothing to do with me not posting as most of the time I ignored him. It would do no good to even have dialogue with unreasonable people who change their mind constantly to fit their whims.
I am not against discussing theology but in the past when I used to spend time on the doctrine threads it was a tremendous time eater.
It seemed most of the discussions were the same old topics mainly Calvinism vs. Moral Government with the same people taking stances on the same arguments and coming to a deadlock.
I do not want to waste prayer and bible reading time getting into discussions. There are people on this board who are much more qualified and do a much better job than I can of discussing these issues so I will leave it to them.
Usually if a post looks really long I will not read it (I guess I probably would not read my own reports either since they are rather long).
In a few days I will be back to my limited posting and discussion but thank you for welcoming me into the discussions.
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Post by messengermicah on Dec 28, 2008 22:11:12 GMT -5
Josh,
No I do not think Sunday is the Sabbath. I think Sunday is the Lord's day.
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Post by pete777 on Dec 29, 2008 1:54:01 GMT -5
Micah, I know you are sincere about your beliefs! You are dedicated to the work that God has assigned you, and I praise God for that. The Bible says there is a way that seems right to a man but the end is not so good if you know what I mean. The point of this text is to illustrate our need of checking things with the Bible and not our traditions or feelings! It would be like a truck driver going under a bridge and thinking “I know I can make it.” But then he rips off the top of his trailer! He was so sure, it felt right, but he was wrong! The bridge has the clearance posted on it and He should know the exact height of his trailer and there would be no problem! The same is true for the Sabbath and Sunday issue! There is no Biblical evidence to WORSHIP on Sunday! The COMMAND of God (Jesus Christ) was not changed! It never has been and will not be for all eternity. However, Sunday is not nor has ever been the LORD's Day! No person that has studied the issue clearly from the Bible would make that claim. Let me explain why! Jesus Christ whom we worship has stated that the Bible can’t disagree with itself! It is impossible for the Word to err or contradict itself, otherwise that would be confusion. The errors are always with man and his light or surface reading! Let’s look into this issue calmly, knowing that the word does not disagree and is consistent! John 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; KJV In Revelation 1:10 we have a reference in the Word of God using the word’s “Lord’s Day.” But there is no confusion to the meaning! All we have to do is check the Bible and see what day God has called His day! It is as simple as that! We need to go to the Bible! Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, KJVThe Bible does not indicate from this text alone which day it is talking about from a light/surface reading! We must compare scripture with scripture! What day is the LORD’s DAY? Mark 2:27-28 27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: 28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath. KJV The Son of man is Jesus Christ and He is God in the flesh! He does not change Heb 13:8, and He is the Word of God which does not disagree with itself! Jesus Christ of the Bible states He is LORD of the Sabbath! That is His day! The LORD’s Day is the Sabbath! It is not Sunday! It is Sabbath! Jesus Christ created the world in six days and rested and blessed the Seventh day, which was called Sabbath meaning to rest and be refreshed. He did not need bodily rest, but He looked at what He had done and was pleased and had Adam and Eve worship Him as their Creator on the following rest days (seventh day Sabbaths)! The day is a memorial of His creative act! Jesus Christ is to be remembered by His creative ability and gift of creation, when He created mankind! He rested on the 7th day and set that as an example in eternal perfection before sin entered the world! Sin has not changed the day of rest and worship! Satan has confused people to this issue but the requirement has not changed! The LORD’s Day is the day Jesus Christ rested on after He created the world (Genesis 2:1-3). God then gave even more light on this issue to a chosen race of people that were to make His requirement known to the world, but failed to do so! The Sabbath was given in the Ten Commandments on Mount Sinai for mankind not just the Jews! The Sabbath pointed back to God’s creative act and demands worship because He is the Creator! The Sabbath is the sign of the Creator and separates the true from all false gods that Satan confuses man with! The Sabbath is the LORD’s day by His creative memorial and His redemption! The Sabbath was made a burden by the confused Jewish leaders. They made all kinds of foolish regulations for Sabbath keeping, that God did not approve of! They tried to improve upon what God had done, and when Jesus Christ came He set the record straight, that Sabbath keeping is Biblical and a requirement, but not to be covered with man- made rules that are called tradition (Matthew 15:3-9). Traditions break the law of God! The law of God has the Sabbath command and is still a requirement of love to our Creator Jesus Christ! What day is the LORD’s Day? Isaiah 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: KJV Here Jesus Christ tells us again! The Sabbath is called “MY HOLY DAY,” and since He is the LORD, it is the LORD’s DAY!!!! Note the language very closely! Read the above text several times! God does not change! Malachi 3:6! Heb 13:8! The LORD’s day is the Sabbath; “thus saith the LORD!” Matthew
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Post by jackjackson on Dec 29, 2008 10:30:31 GMT -5
I agree, the Lord's Day is not Sunday at all, this is part of the apostacy. Sorry, if anyone's toes are stepped on, but I only speak the truth in love.
Steve:
First Fruits of Zion has historical research on this subject in the Messiah Magazines in various months along with other sources, but let me take a crack at this anyway. Paul did say apostacy would come into the body after he left. But how long it took for all the various apostacy is unclear. The Didache (early church fathers document) shows variance from Torah and a clear and deliberant departure from traditional Judaism. Fast days are deliberately changed to show clear and distinct separation between "believers in Jesus" and those of Judaism that didn't accept Him. Both sides wanted to do exactly what God tried to do in Eph 2 by bring down the wall. As the numbers of Gentile (former Gentiles) came into the church, their numbers and influence (no background in living lives of Torah historically) took its toll on the ways Paul and Jesus had taught the believers to walk out their faith. By 70 AD Roman destroyed the Temple and the believers were scattered sheep, without a earthly shepherd, and fell prey to shepherd that rose up and are now ready to be judged (Ezk 34). The sabbath ways and ways of Torah were under attach again, just like at the time of Macabees, this time it was Rome who attached it and persecuted both Jews who didn't believe in Jesus, as well as those who did believe in Jesus. Jews willing to be secularized in Roman ways lived, like many who become Hellenized in Greek rule, but this meant turning from their God and His ways.
It was clear that many pockets remained sabbath keepers even to today, both Jews that didn't believe in Jesus, as well as believers in Jesus. The Lullard's for example kept the sabbaths of God. These disciples of Witcliff who had Bibles they could read, saw easily that Catholic rule had caused God's people to err on many points, but most clearly on sabbaths. Much historically happened when Constantine tried to assimilate the people groups under his rule, just as Antiochus tried to do. Bringing the people under a one world system (like the antichrist will again try and do) makes the people easier to handle, uniting them together in one cause, themselves and that way (see tower of Babel). So Constantine blended pagan holidays like Easter, which already existed near the same time as Passover, with Passover for instance and either paganized Passover, or Christainized Easter; which ever way you want to see it.
This happened in Christmas also, as the winter festivals of the gods birthdays was used for Jesus' birthday, so everyone could celebrate the birth of their gods together. The sun worshipers also worshipped their God on "Sun"day. To again bring all together to worship their god on the same day, blending occurred. The Priests of that day are those who eventually were the Catholic Church. Constantine even merged the Priesthoods allowing pagan priests to be priests in this new mixed bag which brought untold heresy.
It wasn't so crystal clear as to say "this date" was all innacted. Satan is too smart to make the change quickly. lest his scheme be easily detected, apostacy is a slow cooking, like the frog that doesn't realize the water is being heated up and doesn't notice until it is too late.
If you try and Google Sunday Sabbath or other similar things, you will find Catholic documentation that they take credt for moving the Sabbath. This was a huge issue at the Council of Trent, where Reformers were called "only complainers" by a Catholic Priest because they called the Catholics heretics for not following the Bible, when the reformers had no thought to return to the Bible either, seeing they were keeping to the Catholic sabbath switch to Sunday. God's people are called out of "her" and her daughters (reformers that only partially came out). You can jump out the frying pan and into another pan, or in the fire; but should rather leave the whole fire pit area. This is why my family and I didn't go to SDA, we saw it still partially in "her" as they don't submit to all the sabbaths, only the weekly. While making claim they left Babylon, they still do Christmas and Easter, keeping themselves with a few toes in Babylon, like Lots wife, still clinging to the things still in their heart for paganism.
Again, I say this all with love, hoping that many will just see what we will be doing (Ezk. 42-46) as part of His kingdom, and see that is what Jesus did and taught His Apostles to do and teach; so we all can "come out of her my people" so we won't have to be judged with her. I am not calling you out, I am passing along His command that you are called out by the father.
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Post by Steve Noel on Dec 29, 2008 11:04:54 GMT -5
Matthew, This is a very irresponsible statement: I have read MANY who have studied this from the Bible who make this claim. The standard SDA argument which you give here is weak. Jesus being Lord of the Sabbath means references to the Lord's Day are references to the Sabbath? This is really bad hermeneutics Matthew. You cannot take a passage that in one context is giving Jesus' defense of why he was "breaking" the Sabbath and arbitrarily decide that the specific references to the "Lord's Day" mean the Sabbath. This will not convince anyone who understands even a little about hermeneutics. It's a very weak argument and I suggest you toss it out. Isaiah 58 is talking about the Sabbath. It is written before the time of Christ. It was written to Jews. This is clear by the parallel in verses 1, "Cry loudly, do not hold back; Raise your voice like a trumpet, And declare to My people their transgression And to the house of Jacob their sins." (NASB) No one is questioning that the Jews were commanded to observe the Sabbath. The issue is weather or not the specific New Testament references of "the Lord's Day" are talking about the Sabbath. Taking a passage from Isaiah which has YHWH calling the Sabbath His holy day and then transposing that upon the New Testament references to "the Lord's Day" is unacceptable. Isaiah was not speaking specifically about Jesus. The "Lord's Day" is a specific reference to Jesus who throughout the New Testament is called Lord. Jack, Thanks for the post on the history. I haven't read it through yet but I will when I get time.
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Post by messengermicah on Dec 29, 2008 11:13:36 GMT -5
pete777 and jackjackson,
Hey you guys might be right but someone asked me what I thought and I told them what I thought. What am I supposed to do tell them what I think you want me to say?
Do you guys think I thought you would not have a response? I knew what I was getting into otherwise I would not have jumped in.
The reason I posted those scriptures in the other thread about meeting on the 1st day was because those are in the bible and I had not seen them addressed until I made that post.
I have always believed Saturday was the Sabbath and I believe I keep it. As someone else mentioned it is not wrong to worship on other days (some weeks I am in church almost every day).
Hey pete777 that was a great example of the truck driver clearing the bridge! Where did you ever get that example from (hahahahahaha!!!!!!)
Yes jackjackson please be very careful around me because I am very sensitive and easily offended (joking). You can answer me directly without just making references to what "somebody around here has said and stepping on anyone around here's toes".
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Post by pete777 on Dec 29, 2008 13:19:01 GMT -5
Micah, I thought you would like the illustration! Ha Ha! Praise God! Anyway, I want to ask you a question. Our brother Steve said using the OT use of the word LORD is not refering to Jesus Christ, or at least that is the implication. What do you think of that? ? Wow! I am so stunned, I do not even want to answer that question! How could any Bible believing Christian even hint at the suggestion? Matthew
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Post by jackjackson on Dec 29, 2008 13:26:27 GMT -5
We are to preach true in love brother, aren't we. I was just trying to be sweet, while I delivered hard medicine.
Steve:
Just because many have preached "the Lord's day is Sunday" doesn't make it so. That was how Hitler worked, tell a lie long enough and to enough people and the lie can become apparent truth. I suggest the antisemetic attitudes towards Israel, along with replacement theology, crept into the thinking process and we have been handed down inherited lies ever since (Jer 16:19).
I hope you will all read my article on Acts 20:7, and consider if our forefathers, in an attempt to distance themselves from Jews, threw out the baby with the bath water. Remember that the K version wasn't translated until 1611 and started before that. At that time the church was already "bias" and "anti-semetic", much of which was brought by Rome. Until we see the men who translated as "failable" just as we are, we won't see the English translations as translations only, not to be confused with the original writings. By nature the translation process corrupts. The English is the best we have when reading, but for study God has provided us Greek and Hebrew tools that many did not have. The dead languages are now alive again, and these words are truly a witness, preaching hard against many our our faulty doctrines, as we now can read and understand Greek and Hebrew, convert words back and forth with tools like the Setuagent and its concordance, Englishmen's Concordances, and other tools, which allow us to take English to Greek and even Greek back to the likely Hebrew words that would have been spoken. Brad Scott of "Wild Branch Ministry" (www.wildbranch.org) is the best teacher I have ever seen regarding lingusitics of God's word. His background is lingustics and his video "Learning Research Tools" is simply amazing teaching.
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Post by Steve Noel on Dec 29, 2008 13:30:58 GMT -5
Micah, I thought you would like the illustration! Ha Ha! Praise God! Anyway, I want to ask you a question. Our brother Steve said using the OT use of the word LORD is not refering to Jesus Christ, or at least that is the implication. What do you think of that? ? Wow! I am so stunned, I do not even want to answer that question! How could any Bible believing Christian even hint at the suggestion? Matthew Matthew, I don't have time to go into detail because I'm off to work but you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. I said Isaiah was not specifically talking about Jesus here. I believe that there is one God - YHWH - and three Persons - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. My point is that the passage in Isaiah is not singling out the Son but the N.T. often uses "God" (GK. Theos) of the Father and "Lord" (GK. Kurios) of the Son. The Lord's Day is a specific reference to the Son's day. That's all I'm trying to say.
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Post by pete777 on Dec 29, 2008 13:57:54 GMT -5
Steve, I am going to respond to your attack on Jesus Christ, inferring that He is not the Creator God called LORD in the OT. What length people will go to in order to reject the plain clear teaching of the WOrd of God. To deny that the LORD of the OT is Jesus Christ is deeply troubling. John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. KJV The only scriptures that were in existence when JESUS CHRIST said this was the OLD TESTAMENT!!! NEWS FLASH: Jesus is the WORD OF GOD!!! Therefore the WORD OF GOD speaks of Him!!! Question, does the Word of God include the Old Testament? If so then the LORD in the OLD TESTAMENT is in fact Jesus Christ! The only group on planet earth to deny this is Jehovah Witnesses, and Jews! There may be others, but they are not Christians!!! It is the singular privilege of Christians to have the blessing of the fact that Jesus Christ is Jehovah of the OLD TESTAMENT!!! READ Zechariah 12:10 where Jehovah has His hands pierced!! Wow! Who would that be? 2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: KJV The Bible teaches that we can use the OT and the NT for doctrinal purposes! But Steve Noel seems to imply we can’t do that! Steve, how on earth did you come to that conclusion! Every single reference in the OLD TESTAMENT where the term LORD is used is speaking ONLY about Jesus Christ!! Never is there one reference that does not use the term LORD, and Jesus is not the one being mentioned! NEVER! He is YHWH, Jehovah! Revelation 1:8-10 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty . 9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, KJV The Almighty GOD is Jesus Christ! He is the CREATOR OF HEAVEN AND EARTH!!! It was Jesus Christ in His full Glory that gave the Law of God on Mount Sinai! It is Jesus’ TEN COMMANDMENTS! Hello! Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. KJV Wow! Here we have Jesus Christ telling us that the books of Moses are talking about Him! How about that! OOPS! All the prophets are talking about Him too! Does that include the book of Isaiah??? Yes it does! Is Jesus Christ the LORD of the OT and the book of Isaiah? Yes He is! Is the Sabbath His holy day that He rested on after He Created heaven and earth? Yes it is! Does Jesus Christ confirm this in the New Testament with His own mouth? Yes He does!!! Mark 2:27-28 27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: 28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath. KJV If Jesus Christ is LORD also of the Sababth, it is because He ordained the Sabbath when He created MANKIND!!! How clear could that be??? He is LORD of the Sababth because He is CREATOR! His day is the “LORD’s DAY” which is SABBATH or 7th day (Saturday). When John was in the spirit on the LORD’s day it could only be SABBATH!!! When people say it is Sunday they are clueless to the testimony of scripture and are reading into it their own opinion, just like the Jews did, which led them to murder the Son of God, just as people do today when they force their own “non-Biblical” human tradition on texts! They are rejecting the WORD of GOD which is Jesus Christ! Matthew
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Post by jackjackson on Dec 29, 2008 14:05:29 GMT -5
Steve, Jesus (the son) said He and the Father are One. That Hebrew word for one is likely Echad. The one who will come in Judgement is the Son, His day, that is the dreadful day of His return to judge the earth is consistenly called the "Day of the Lord". This I too believe is different from Lord's Day"
In Rev. 1:10 we find John before the aleph tav (alpha and omega), and John is in the Spirit, on "the Lord's Day". John saw he and Jesus were in the Holy Place, not High Holy Place. Jesus was in the same form as he and Peter saw Him at the transfiguration. The text never indicates if this was the Sabbath Day, or a new Sunday. In the Greek the Strongs is #2960, katiakos, is defined as belonging to the Lord (Jehovah or Jesus) - Lord's. It is from 2962 , kurios, supreme in authority, controller.... Now since Jesus came an taught nothing but that which the Father commanded, He never taught another day was "holy" except the sabbath. When He comes back in Ezk. 44:23-24 we are told the sons of Zadok, at His command, will teach us again the difference between holy and profane, unclean and clean.......
Jesus' Day was demonstrated to have always been the same as the day He rested after He created all things in 6 days. This never changes. The resurection never changes the Sabbath. If you read the Strongs definition, you will find that this is true.
We keep allowing our prejudices to get in the way of just accepting what is there. There is no reason to assume that this Lord's Day therefore, wasn't the same day John had worshipped the Lord each week for his whole life, even now on Patmos. John, like Paul, and Peter, all kept the Torah of God, including sabbath and feasts. If not, they would have been breaking fellowship with the synogouge/church. Those in the synogouge were also the saints, the called out ones. Called out from paganism which all stems from sun worshipping (see Babel).
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Post by pete777 on Dec 29, 2008 14:17:36 GMT -5
Look at how Jehovah had his hands pierced! When Jehovah speaks it is the WOrd of GOD, meaning He represents the Godhead! Jesus was the one representing the GOdhead in every single passage of the OLD TESTAMENT!!!! EVERY LAST ONE! It was Jesus Christ who is the great I AM THAT I AM!!!! Zechariah 12:10 10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. KJV Here is Jesus Speaking as well!! Exodus 3:14 14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM : and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. KJV The "I AM" IS JESUS CHRIST!!! Mark 12:26 26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses , how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? KJV The GOD of Abraham, Issac and Jacob is Jesus Christ! He is GOD ALMIGHTY! HE speaks for the entire GODHEAD! When we see the name LORD in the OT it is the WORD OF GOD, who is the Son of GOD, who is GOD! John 8:56-59 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was , I am . 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. KJV Who was the GREAT I AM of the OLD TESTAMENT? ? Jesus Christ! He said it HIMSELF! He is the WORD OF GOD! When He speaks, He is Speaking for the GODHEAD! HIS DAY IS THE LORD"S DAY SABBATH! Matthew
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Post by jackjackson on Dec 29, 2008 14:34:27 GMT -5
Very Good Matthew!
He is also the aleph tav! The Greek calls Him the alpha and omega, because these are the first and last Greek letters, but Jesus would have called Himself the aleph tav, or first and last Hebrew letter. John may have actually wrote the Gospel of John, after Revelations. Why do I suggest this? John see's Jesus as the Aleph Tav after his encounter in Rev. 1. If you have a Hebrew Scripture, or specifically a Word Study Bible which gives all Strong's numbers for all Hebrew words as you read, you will find Strongs #853 in many places with no text below the markings. That is because there is no real easy way to translate "aleph tav". It seems added for emphasis, like "all inclusive" or "completely and utterly". The Hebrew Rabbi's know the "alelph tav" is all over the OT. I have counted them in Genesis alone and have over 800 findings of these in the first 45 chapters. So what are they doing there? I suggest they are fingerprints of the Creator, Jesus Himself, the aleph Tav, the Word of God. So when John says the Word became flesh, He really meant it. Jesus is the living word, the embodiment of the Torah and Prophets. His very words caused all to be created and still hold it all together.
By His mouth made He the seventh day hallowed. Who's mouth? Jesus' mouth. It represented the achievement of Creation, to be remembered forever.
The Creation is the pinnacle of His work, not the resurection. If there is no life to give, it can't be taken up again.
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Post by pete777 on Dec 29, 2008 14:44:40 GMT -5
Jack,
I do not want to go off on the Torah as we disagree! I know you are sincere and your knowledge of the Bible is strong. But I believe the ceremonial laws of Moses were done away with on the cross. I know you do not believe this. I want to discuss the Sabbath and stay on point. Praise God for the things we do agree on!
Matthew
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Post by pete777 on Dec 29, 2008 18:09:33 GMT -5
Brethern,
Here is a short post to help look at the Acts 20:7 text and to help you see that this was an extension of the Sabbath service, that carried over until sunset, which then entered into the first day of the week from the seventh day of the week. It actually confirms with heavy evidence of Sababth keeping!
Please note that the next morning when Paul departed was Sunday morning and there was NO WORSHIP, rather is was a common work day!!! Hint hint hint!
Acts 20:7-11 7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight. 8 And there were many lights in the upper chamber, where they were gathered together. 9 And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was long preaching, he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead. 10 And Paul went down, and fell on him, and embracing him said, Trouble not yourselves; for his life is in him. 11 When he therefore was come up again, and had broken bread, and eaten, and talked a long while, even till break of day, so he departed. KJV Please note the following points of observation in the above passage: 1) The first day of the week is discussed, but please note that in verse 8 it was night, because the lights were lit in the building! 2) This means that after the Sabbath they continued to meet and continued to preach, even after the Sabbath has ended, they continued to preach and study. The sun went down ending the Sabbath and the night was the first portion of Sunday (evening and the morning were the first day). 3) Therefore, this meeting was an extension of the Sabbath. It proves that they were honoring the Sabbath and just wanted to continue with their service, as Paul was leaving the next day to catch a ship. 4) The next day in the light portion (Sunday morning) was not celebrated at all, for Paul had to walk 25 miles that day to get to his boat ride. He did not keep the Sunday holy at all, neither did anybody in the gathering, for they had just got done honoring the 7th day Sabbath! Then when Sunday morning came, Paul left to catch a boat ride! 5) Verse 11 the break of day when Paul departed was Sunday morning! There was no fellowship that morning! Again this confirms without a doubt that the Sabbath was kept, and that they continued to meet until Paul had to leave for his boat ride on Sunday morning! 6) The light on in the upper chamber prove without any question it was a night meeting. This night meeting was at the end of the Sabbath and called Saturday night or the first part of the first day of the week (Sunday) which starts at sundown, not at sun-up. The Sabbath was kept and the meeting continued until the break of day Sunday morning when it ended! 7) The Seventh Day Sabbath is vindicated by this passage of scripture as proving that the Sabbath was respected and Sunday was a common day to travel on and just a work day with no special significance or meaning!
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Post by Steve Noel on Dec 29, 2008 22:58:11 GMT -5
Steve, I am going to respond to your attack on Jesus Christ, inferring that He is not the Creator God called LORD in the OT. What length people will go to in order to reject the plain clear teaching of the WOrd of God. To deny that the LORD of the OT is Jesus Christ is deeply troubling. John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. KJV The only scriptures that were in existence when JESUS CHRIST said this was the OLD TESTAMENT!!! NEWS FLASH: Jesus is the WORD OF GOD!!! Therefore the WORD OF GOD speaks of Him!!! Question, does the Word of God include the Old Testament? If so then the LORD in the OLD TESTAMENT is in fact Jesus Christ! The only group on planet earth to deny this is Jehovah Witnesses, and Jews! There may be others, but they are not Christians!!! It is the singular privilege of Christians to have the blessing of the fact that Jesus Christ is Jehovah of the OLD TESTAMENT!!! READ Zechariah 12:10 where Jehovah has His hands pierced!! Wow! Who would that be? 2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: KJV The Bible teaches that we can use the OT and the NT for doctrinal purposes! But Steve Noel seems to imply we can’t do that! Steve, how on earth did you come to that conclusion! Every single reference in the OLD TESTAMENT where the term LORD is used is speaking ONLY about Jesus Christ!! Never is there one reference that does not use the term LORD, and Jesus is not the one being mentioned! NEVER! He is YHWH, Jehovah! Revelation 1:8-10 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty . 9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, KJV The Almighty GOD is Jesus Christ! He is the CREATOR OF HEAVEN AND EARTH!!! It was Jesus Christ in His full Glory that gave the Law of God on Mount Sinai! It is Jesus’ TEN COMMANDMENTS! Hello! Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. KJV Wow! Here we have Jesus Christ telling us that the books of Moses are talking about Him! How about that! OOPS! All the prophets are talking about Him too! Does that include the book of Isaiah??? Yes it does! Is Jesus Christ the LORD of the OT and the book of Isaiah? Yes He is! Is the Sabbath His holy day that He rested on after He Created heaven and earth? Yes it is! Does Jesus Christ confirm this in the New Testament with His own mouth? Yes He does!!! Mark 2:27-28 27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: 28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath. KJV If Jesus Christ is LORD also of the Sababth, it is because He ordained the Sabbath when He created MANKIND!!! How clear could that be??? He is LORD of the Sababth because He is CREATOR! His day is the “LORD’s DAY” which is SABBATH or 7th day (Saturday). When John was in the spirit on the LORD’s day it could only be SABBATH!!! When people say it is Sunday they are clueless to the testimony of scripture and are reading into it their own opinion, just like the Jews did, which led them to murder the Son of God, just as people do today when they force their own “non-Biblical” human tradition on texts! They are rejecting the WORD of GOD which is Jesus Christ! Matthew Matthew, Since you're not interested in serious discussions I'll have to withdraw from interacting with you. I don't have time for nonsense.
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Post by pete777 on Dec 29, 2008 23:08:22 GMT -5
Steve,
Let's have a serious discussion! The Sabbath is one of the clearest doctrines in the Bible. The reason that people do not see this truth is because it causes them to make a change in thier life, a sacrifice they are not willing to make for Jesus Christ and His truth. They like the praise of men more than the praise that comes from God only!
I pray God will open the eyes of the sincere and true hearted!
Matthew
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Post by Steve Noel on Dec 29, 2008 23:10:38 GMT -5
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Post by pete777 on Dec 29, 2008 23:14:06 GMT -5
Steve,
Did you read the post on Acts 20:7???
That verse is a power vindication of the 7th Day Sabbath! It proves the Sabbath was being kept and that they continued their meeting until the sun went down, which ran into the first day of the week. They meet on the Sabbath, that is the key!
In addition, Paul left the next morning! That would be Sunday morning! He did not have services at all in the "LIGHT" portion of Sunday, rather he departed to get a boat ride!
What more evidence could a person want???
Did you go to Sabbathtruth.com? All your question can be answered on that site!
Matthew
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Post by Steve Noel on Dec 29, 2008 23:18:32 GMT -5
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Post by jackjackson on Dec 30, 2008 1:01:01 GMT -5
Steve: Those faces made my evening. Thanks for the laugh!
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Post by pete777 on Dec 30, 2008 13:33:36 GMT -5
Steve,
I pray you really look into this issue! The Roman Catholic Church changed the Sababth from Saturday the 7th day to the satanic day of pagan worship. The mark of the beast will take many by surprise! They will not know what hit them! The truth has been given to this earth and the stiffnecked pride of religious "hot-shots" blocks reception of the truth. God has been faithful in giving the knowledge of the Antichrist, beast, mark of the beast knowledge to the people of this earth. But when they find out that it came from a church that keeps all ten commandments of God and that believes in the body as a temple of the Holy Spirit and thereby follows healthful living and eating practices, the people turn away.
Just like the wicked Jewish leaders of old, they would not hear the truth from the humble Jesus, but instead murdered Him and went about business as usual. The true church has absolute perfection in Bible doctrine and that is the SDA church. You may not like it but that is your problem and nothing can be done for you unless you look into it and study it out with the Bible and the Bible only!
Steve, I will add you to my prayer list, I will ask God to help you with your pride and self-righteousness. The only way you can have peace is from a humble and contrite heart. I pray God blesses you brother.
Matthew
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Post by debonnaire on Dec 30, 2008 14:39:30 GMT -5
the SDA church had at its head a false prophetess probably demon possessed or a fraud or more simply a deceived woman yet a deceiver , who manifested weird signs , uttered false prophesis that did not came to pass (of course), and taught many false teachings here a good link : endtimespropheticwords.wordpress.com/category/ellen-g-white-sda/
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