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Post by messengermicah on Jan 2, 2009 15:29:03 GMT -5
I am surprised here that so many will spend so much time discussing the Sabbath and its importance but when the subject of remarriage comes up (which is clearly adultery and forbidden) no one really says anything against it except for Miles Lewis and myself.
Is it that you guys do not think it is important?
Is it that you guys do not think it is adultery?
Is it that you guys do not want to speak out against it?
Is it that some of you are in remarriage with a living spouse or a good friend of yours is?
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Post by benjoseph on Jan 2, 2009 17:17:43 GMT -5
Under the law, remarriage could legally follow adultery. (Lev 20:10, Rom 7:1-3) The certificate of divorce was for hardheartedness. (Mat 19:8) Christians don't have hardheartedness. (Bible) A Christian may divorce an adulterous spouse. (Mat 5:32) The Lord said remarriage is adultery with the exception of sexual immorality. (Mat 19:9) The Lord has divorced and will be remarried. (Isa 50:1, Jer 3:8, Rev 21:9, Est 1:19, 2:4, 2:17)
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Post by dmatic on Jan 2, 2009 17:19:30 GMT -5
Re-marriage after divorce is not sin.
You may be thinking of some incorrect translations of Jesus' statements concerning "putting away" without the writing of divorcement.
I'll qualify the initial statement with....unless God specifically tells the divorced person not to remarry. But, He, generally, did not so prohibit...(Deuteronomy 24)
peace, dmatic
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Post by jackjackson on Jan 2, 2009 18:30:16 GMT -5
Also check out Hosea, and what God asked him to do. He told Hosea to take back his wife after she went a whoring. He said it was like Him taking back Israel, after she kept going a whoring also. If God can take us back when we fornicate against Him, well........
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Post by dmatic on Jan 2, 2009 18:50:25 GMT -5
good point jack!
benjoseph wrote:
I think He said that to put away a wife, without giving her the legal writing of divorcement, would be to cause her to commit adultery. If she had already committed adultery, then the husband may not have been the cause. This is, I think, what He meant by "except for the cause of immorality". In other words, if the woman committed adultery while married, then the husband could divorce her, but not be the cause of her adultery. For her to remarry, having the writing of divorcement, was not in itself, adulterous.
The LORD cannot, according to His Law, remarry His "divorced wife", since she married another, I think. However, Jesus being the first-born from the dead, is now free to marry.
HalleluYah!
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Post by benjoseph on Jan 2, 2009 20:15:02 GMT -5
Hi dmatic, I'm not sure I completely understood what you were saying but maybe these thoughts will be helpful. You said: That's Matthew 5:32. Matthew 19:9 says you cannot take a second wife (after divorce, that is) unless the first wife was a fornicator. All by itself, Matthew 19:9 makes fornication an exception to the fact that remarriage is adultery. In other words, this statement can be directly extracted from Mathew 19:9: "remarrying after divorcing a fornicator is not adultery." Paul then added to this exception in 1Cor 7 saying that if an unbelieving spouse departs there is no bondage for the Christian. Was the certificate of divorce commonly used for adultery? Joseph would have given marry a certificate of divorce it seems. But in general, adulterers could keep whoring around and keep getting certificates and be legal? Perhaps that WAS a problem. But far from the idea of the certificate. Also, the penalty for adultery was not to "put away" the adulterer but to put down the adulterer, like you would put down a rabid dog. I do not know if Roman law allowed for the Jews to do that or not. I'm guessing not, but maybe the Romans didn't really care if adulterous Jewish women died. That's interesting what you said about the Lord being dead and risen. I had never heard of that. I was undecided about remarriage (against it) until just recently. This is pretty exciting to me because I always figured once you were on either end of a divorce you were like some kind of leper! Even if I never remarried it is still nice to know. Also, if you remain attached to a spouse who is a willful and unrepentant fornicator, you're not even really a spouse (functionally) after long enough, just a customer. And not necessarily a preferred customer. That's just an opinion though.
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Post by Steve Noel on Jan 2, 2009 22:24:08 GMT -5
No to all your questions. I haven't spent any time studying the issue so I have no opinion to give.
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Post by messengermicah on Jan 3, 2009 15:45:54 GMT -5
Thanks Steve and I understand that.
As for the rest of you no Jesus is not saying it is ok to divorce and remarry if your spouse is unfaithful.
The only time Jesus gives that "except it be for fornication" is in Matthew and only one time in Matthew.
What Jesus was talking about was unfaithfulness during the espousal period. The Jews understood this (some of you should understand this also since you are so knowledgeable about Jewish culture). You are taking on a Gentile understanding of a Jewish subject in a Jewish context.
If someone was unfaithful to a marriage partner that would be adultery not fornication. Under Jewish law adulterers were stoned.
The only time Jesus and the New Testament says it is ok to remarry is if the spouse is no longer living (Romans 7:1-4). Notice he calls her an "adulteress" not just committing one act.
So someone who is remarried with a living spouse has not merely committed an act of adultery but they are living in a state of adultery.
John told Herod (a sinner and a Gentile) it was not lawful for him to have his brother's wife. If that was wrong for a Gentile and a sinner how can it be ok for a Christian?
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Post by messengermicah on Jan 3, 2009 16:06:32 GMT -5
Thank you Steve and I understand.
As for the rest of you no Jesus was not saying it was ok to divorce and remarry if your spouse is unfaithful.
Sometimes divorce is unavoidable and not one party's choice but remarry is always a choice.
For this reason divorce and remarriage should be treated as seperate topics.
Jesus never said it was ok to remarry if your first spouse was unfaithful. The only time we read the "except it be for fornication" was in the book of Matthew and it was only said one time. Matthew is the most Jewish of all the gospels and Jesus was speaking to Jews.
Some of you have such a good understanding (or claim to) of Jewish culture you should understand this. He was speaking not of unfaithfulness in a marriage situation (that would be adultery not fornication) but was speaking of the espousal period. If someone was unfaithful during the period of espousal then that would be grounds for divorce.
Jesus did not say "except it be for adultery". Adulterers were stoned at that time under Jewish law. Unfaithfulness during marriage is not fornication but adultery.
The only time someone was permitted to remarry was if the spouse was no longer living (Romans 7:1-4). If the unfaithful spouse was stoned to death for adultery then the other partner would be free to remarry.
Notice the person in a remarried situation was called an "adulteress" (living in a state of adultery) and not merely committing an act of adultery.
John the Baptist told Herod (a sinner and a Gentile) it was not lawful for him to have his brother's wife. If it was not lawful for a sinner and a Gentile to do that how can it be ok for a Christian?
Why didn't John tell Herod to repent of his sins and turn to the Lord Jesus Christ? Why did he single that out?
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Post by benjoseph on Jan 3, 2009 16:14:00 GMT -5
I don't understand, messengermicah. It is right here in Matthew twice. It is not the same thing said twice either. It is two different statements. Mat 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
Whosoever shall put away G630, ἀπολύω, apoluō, ap-ol-oo'-o From G575 and G3089; to free fully, that is, (literally) relieve, release, dismiss (reflexively depart), or (figuratively) let die, pardon, or (specifically) divorce: - (let) depart, dismiss, divorce, forgive, let go, loose, put (send) away, release, set at liberty.
his wife G1135, γυνή, gunē, goo-nay' Probably from the base of G1096; a woman; specifically a wife: - wife, woman.
except it be for fornication G4202, πορνεία, porneia, por-ni'-ah From G4203; harlotry (including adultery and incest); figuratively idolatry: - fornication.
and shall marry G1060, γαμέω, gameō, gam-eh'-o From G1062; to wed (of either sex): - marry (a wife).
another G243, ἄλλος, allos, al'-los A primary word; “else”, that is, different (in many applications): - more, one (another), (an-, some an-) other (-s, -wise).
committeth adultery G3429, μοιχάω, moichaō, moy-khah'-o From G3432; (middle voice) to commit adultery: - commit adultery.Mat 5:32 (ASV) but I say unto you, that every one that putteth away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, maketh her an adulteress: and whosoever shall marry her when she is put away committeth adultery.
(BBE) But I say to you that everyone who puts away his wife for any other cause but the loss of her virtue, makes her false to her husband; and whoever takes her as his wife after she is put away, is no true husband to her.
(CEV) But I tell you not to divorce your wife unless she has committed some terrible sexual sin. If you divorce her, you will cause her to be unfaithful, just as any man who marries her is guilty of taking another man's wife.
(EMTV) "But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife, except for a matter of sexual immorality, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorcee commits adultery.
(ESV) But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of sexual immorality, makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
(ISV) But I say to you, any man who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, causes her to commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery."
(KJVR) But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
(LITV) But I say to you, Whoever puts away his wife, apart from a matter of fornication, causes her to commit adultery. And whoever shall marry the one put away commits adultery.
(RV) but I say unto you, that every one that putteth away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, maketh her an adulteress: and whosoever shall marry her when she is put away committeth adultery.
(YLT) but I--I say to you, that whoever may put away his wife, save for the matter of whoredom, doth make her to commit adultery; and whoever may marry her who hath been put away doth commit adultery.
| Mat 19:9 (ASV) And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and he that marrieth her when she is put away committeth adultery.
(BBE) And I say to you, Whoever puts away his wife for any other cause than the loss of her virtue, and takes another, is a false husband: and he who takes her as his wife when she is put away, is no true husband to her.
(CEV) I say that if your wife has not committed some terrible sexual sin, you must not divorce her to marry someone else. If you do, you are unfaithful."
(EMTV) And I say to you, that whoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marrying a divorcee commits adultery."
(ESV) And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery."
(ISV) I tell you that whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery."
(KJVR) And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
(LITV) And I say to you, Whoever shall put away his wife, if not for fornication, and shall marry another, that one commits adultery. And the one who marries her who was put away commits adultery.
(RV) And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and he that marrieth her when she is put away committeth adultery.
(YLT) `And I say to you, that, whoever may put away his wife, if not for whoredom, and may marry another, doth commit adultery; and he who did marry her that hath been put away, doth commit adultery.'
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Post by messengermicah on Jan 3, 2009 16:21:24 GMT -5
I am on a computer where for some reason I can't see my recent post (that is why I posted similiar posts back to back) and I can't see your responses so I will have to get back to this another time.
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Post by messengermicah on Jan 3, 2009 16:23:16 GMT -5
Yes, you are correct and I am wrong. Point made. Now what about the rest of the post.
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Post by benjoseph on Jan 3, 2009 18:22:25 GMT -5
Hi Micah,
I hope you didn't think I was trying to be like a know-it-all. I was rushing through that last post before heading out to the store and I just wanted to be thorough. One of the reasons I posted the strong's definitions was because it said adultery could fall under "fornication."
I agree that adultery would probably be a continuous state if your position is correct. I've never heard of these objections so I'll take a look at them. Let me know if I'm missing any here:
- You are taking on a Gentile understanding of a Jewish subject in a Jewish context. - What Jesus was talking about was unfaithfulness during the espousal period. - If someone was unfaithful to a marriage partner that would be adultery not fornication. - Jesus did not say "except it be for adultery" - John told Herod (a sinner and a Gentile) it was not lawful for him to have his brother's wife. If that was wrong for a Gentile and a sinner how can it be ok for a Christian? - Why didn't John tell Herod to repent of his sins and turn to the Lord Jesus Christ? Why did he single that out?
I'll study up on these and get back to you. At this point, I'm wary of the idea of "Jewish context." Obviously context is important and we can't just think it means whatever it we want. I'm just wary of people introducing complicated history lessons into things. For instance I had someone suggest to me once that "turn the other cheek" was specifically for the Jews under Roman rule and that we would be allowed to respond differently nowadays. If that's the case then the Lord might as well have spoken everything in cyphers, codes, etc. I'll check it out though.
Here are my initial questions and thoughts: - Why do you think Mat 19:9 only applies to engagement and not to marriage? - What is the difference in Mat 19:9 if it is during a betrothal period or after the actual marriage ceremony (however that works....?) - Why does the specific situation with the two brothers (or half-brothers?) apply to every situation? - John reproved Herod of all his evil doings, not only taking Herodias (Luk 3:19). However, the Lord warned his disciples about the "leaven of Herod" (Mar 8:15) which got me thinking about the story of Queen Vashti in Esther. In that case it was noted that a bad example set by the royal family would lead to corruption among the entire people.
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Post by manderson on Jan 3, 2009 23:16:56 GMT -5
Divorce is wrong and the problems that it produces are many. I know. Study the subject and be of one mind about it. God will be my judge. I do preach aginst it. Who is not effected by this sin.
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Post by bounbough on Jan 4, 2009 21:38:06 GMT -5
I understand the doctrine of Christ in regards to this issue. My wife put me away, so I thought that gave me the 'ALL CLEAR' to remarry, but when the disciples turned the question around and asked Jesus: [glow=red,2,300]"Mat 19:10 His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry". [/glow]It is clear that Jesus wasn't for remarriage.
Ok, perhaps I can justify the divorced (me being put away) as a blessing seeing as my X-wife fornicated with another man, but why doesn't the Bible say adultery? because the putting away part refers to the act of fornication during the betrothal period and not after the vows have been taken, otherwise Jesus would have said "except for adultery" instead of fornication" .
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Post by bounbough on Jan 4, 2009 21:45:50 GMT -5
And it gets worse. I married a woman who (although has never been civilly marriage by law, nor has taken any marriage vows) did live in a ‘boyfriend/girlfriend’ type relationship and shacked up often to fornicate, and she even fell pregnant and had his baby, but then the man abandoned her (put her away???) and civilly later by vows met a woman and got married. So my question is, was my present wife ever married in the eyes of God, despite the fact that they lived in sin and never took marriage vows? At what point does fornication become a marriage in the eyes of God? How long do people fornicate before God sees them as being married?
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Post by joemccowan on Jan 5, 2009 15:43:08 GMT -5
I am surprised here that so many will spend so much time discussing the Sabbath and its importance but when the subject of remarriage comes up (which is clearly adultery and forbidden) no one really says anything against it except for Miles Lewis and myself. Is it that you guys do not think it is important? Is it that you guys do not think it is adultery? Is it that you guys do not want to speak out against it? Is it that some of you are in remarriage with a living spouse or a good friend of yours is? I have preached against remarriage in congregations where many couples are living in second marriages. I believe remarriage is a commitment to perpetual adultery. For those who become Christians when already in a second marriage, I believe their is some merit for staying in that relationship; 1Cr 7:24 Brethren, let each one remain with God in that [state] in which he was called. 25 Now concerning virgins: I have no commandment from the Lord; yet I give judgment as one whom the Lord in His mercy [has made] trustworthy. 26 I suppose therefore that this is good because of the present distress--that [it is] good for a man to remain as he is: 27 Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be loosed. Are you loosed from a wife? Do not seek a wife. Yesterday my sermon was on the qualifications of elders and deacons. I talked about the necessity of being faithful husbands and fathers prior to engaging in pastoral ministry. It was well received by some, and not so well by others. Blessings, Joe
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Post by dmatic on Jan 5, 2009 16:28:19 GMT -5
It is obvious that there is much confusion being preached concerning this issue, some even, by implication, are sying that since divorce is a sin in their eyes, that God is a sinner, since He is divorced! Please!
It may help if everyone studied the difference between divorce and putting away. They are not the same!
Divorce, per se, is not sin!
Neither is remarriage!
Check your Bibles and study God's Law!
peace, dmatic
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Post by rescuedbymary06 on Jan 5, 2009 16:33:42 GMT -5
Gentlemen,
As long as you continue to reject Holy Orders,
you will never understand Christian Marriage.
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Post by dmatic on Jan 5, 2009 16:45:24 GMT -5
OK, I'll bite. What's holy orders?
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Post by rescuedbymary06 on Jan 5, 2009 17:20:49 GMT -5
OK, I'll bite. What's holy orders? There's no bait, man. It's a Sacrament. One of seven.
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Post by messengermicah on Jan 5, 2009 18:51:53 GMT -5
joe,
I am glad you preach against it.
There is a discussion on this board right now with many people trying to defend remarriage with a living spouse.
Why don't you participate in it?
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Post by bounbough on Jan 5, 2009 20:56:21 GMT -5
1Cr 7:24 [glow=red,2,300]Brethren, let each one remain with God in that [state] in which he was called. [/glow]
Dear Joe, Wow! Praise the Lord! And thank you so much! This is a bombshell! There is my answer right there! This is the first real progress I have made on this topic for 3 years!!! Praise the Lord! Now we are making progress. So from this scripture it is clear to me now that I should not have remarried.
Can you please answer the next 2 questions for me:
1. Doesn’t an apostle have the power to lead about a wife? I COR 9:5 [glow=red,2,300]Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife,[/glow] as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?
2. I am soon to be a Pastor, is it not possible that God (by Grace) has allowed me to remarry so I can fill this office?
Is it possible that God has given me a special grace so I can fulfill my calling in the ministry? Re Special Grace: In Thailand, there are many woman Pastors because there are simply so few men who are willing to fill the office. A special grace? Ref: Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, [glow=red,2,300]and gave gifts unto men. [/glow]
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Post by joemccowan on Jan 5, 2009 21:39:30 GMT -5
joe, I am glad you preach against it. There is a discussion on this board right now with many people trying to defend remarriage with a living spouse. Why don't you participate in it? I haven't been on the board in awhile, and this is the only thread I have read today. I'll try to jump in on the other ones when I get a few minutes. Blessings, Joe
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Post by joemccowan on Jan 5, 2009 21:51:48 GMT -5
I don't believe anyone who has been remarried, regardless of whether or not they have repented of past sins, can become a pastor according to the New Testament. In the Early Church, a man who married after he was widowed could not become a pastor, a tradition attributed to the the apostles themselves. Women cannot be pastors anymore than a man can be a godly wife. Women can be used by God, as can men who have been divorced prior to their conversion, but neither are qualified to be pastors, deacons or elders, period. Circumstances do not modify qualifications. Hope this helps.
Blessings, Joe
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Post by bounbough on Jan 6, 2009 0:06:25 GMT -5
So one can not be a Pastor without being married. The person has to be "the husband of one wife" .
Also, how do you explain in 1 COR 7 where Paul says "But and if thou marry thou hast not sinned"? Are you saying that one is only free to marry if the spouse is dead? Thanks
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Post by joemccowan on Jan 6, 2009 7:49:23 GMT -5
So one can not be a Pastor without being married. The person has to be "the husband of one wife" . Also, how do you explain in 1 COR 7 where Paul says "But and if thou marry thou hast not sinned"? Are you saying that one is only free to marry if the spouse is dead? Thanks Celibacy is the only acceptable alternative to being married. Marriage is to be between one man and one woman for one lifetime. If a man is widowed early in life and cannot contain himself, it appears that he is permitted to remarry, but I am not sure that he can be a pastor if he does so. The NT doesn't say much about it, but history tells us the Early Church frowned upon allowing such men to be appointed as shepherds over a congregation of believers. And yes, I believe that a pastor should either have taken a vow of celibacy (as Paul had) or be married prior to being placed in a position of leadership. In the Orthodox Church, there are two types of clergy; monastic and married. If a priest is ordained while married (to his first and only wife of course) he must remain married. If his wife dies, he must not remarry and must remain celibate. Often, priest who have been widowed will join a monastic group. If a priest is ordained having never been married, he must remain in unmarried as monastic clergy. In most cases, priests serving in pastoral roles are married clergy. This has been the rule for 1800 yrs. Blessings, Joe
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Post by dmatic on Jan 6, 2009 15:55:32 GMT -5
bounbough, I am alittle concerned about you from this statement:
How are you going to figure your way out of this?
Because, scripture is also clear that you are to love your wife!
But, if you think you aren't supposed to be married to her, maybe you can justify not loving her when things get tough?
I would counsel you to love your wife, even when she is "unlovable"!
A "Pastor" is one who takes care of sheep. If you cannot take care of your wife, you may not be fit to become a pastor anyway.
May God bless you with answers.
Peace, dmatic
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Post by dmatic on Jan 7, 2009 17:09:28 GMT -5
bounbough, if this is your question:
The answer is from God's word, so it doesn't matter what other people might say. He says that you CAN! Deuteronomy 24:1-2)
Peace, dmatic
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Post by dmatic on Jan 7, 2009 19:56:24 GMT -5
So, you'd trust men (KJV onlyists) over God?
May He bless you with His answer, and may you be willing to hear Him.
Peace, dmatic
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