jsides
Junior Member
Posts: 81
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Post by jsides on Jan 6, 2009 10:57:31 GMT -5
1.Did Lucifer have the ability to obey God while in heaven I believe he did?2.Knowing that Lucifer was kicked out of heaven to earth can Satan now repent of his sin and choose to obey God? 3.Some believe this life is but a probation period if that is true can even demons who are yet not in hell repent. Some may say atonement was made for every human being and that is why only humans can repent and not fallen angels or Satan but wouldn't even that belief still be specific atonement or limited atonement?
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Post by logic on Jan 6, 2009 13:06:55 GMT -5
1. Did Lucifer have the ability to obey God while in heaven I believe he did? 2. Knowing that Lucifer was kicked out of heaven to earth can Satan now repent of his sin and choose to obey God? 3. Some believe this life is but a probation period if that is true can even demons who are yet not in hell repent. Some may say atonement was made for every human being and that is why only humans can repent and not fallen angels or Satan but wouldn't even that belief still be specific atonement or limited atonement? 1. Did Lucifer have the ability to obey God while in heaven I believe he did?Me too 2. Knowing that Lucifer was kicked out of heaven to earth can Satan now repent of his sin and choose to obey God?He could, but what would be the point? He has no atonement for what he did. He would still be condemned if he repents. 3. Some believe this life is but a probation period if that is true can even demons who are yet not in hell repent.? Yes, however, the same as above, what would be the point? They have no atonement for what he did. They would still be condemned if he repents. Some may say atonement was made for every human being and that is why only humans can repent and not fallen angels or Satan but wouldn't even that belief still be specific atonement or limited atonement?Yes. However, I would like to requset that revk give his conclusion as to why they have no attonement. I ask revk, becuase I can't remember it but I do remember that is was very reasonable.
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Post by benjoseph on Jan 6, 2009 13:24:44 GMT -5
because angels had full knowledge? what is the atonement for rejecting the very presence of God?
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Post by Kerrigan on Jan 6, 2009 13:34:58 GMT -5
Yes, we, as humans do have a probationary period while on earth. There is, however, NO HOPE for the Satan and the 1/3 of the angels that fell with him. Their situation and our situation is very different though. I guess you could say that Heaven was their probationary period. Satan and the angels who fell from Heaven automatically became apostate as soon as they sinned. They had all the knowledge of God that a being (whether human or angel) could possibly ever have and they rejected fellowship with Him through their sin. They were in presence of Almighty God!
That's what a reprobate is. A reprobate is someone who God has done all He can to influence them and give them knowledge of Him and they reject it. If someone rejects someone or something at the highest possible knowledge of that person or thing, then they will never except that person or thing at a lower state of knowledge.
There couldn't possibly ever be an atonement for Satan and the fallen angels. They would never accept it! It would be a waste of an atonement! Human beings have an entirely different situation then the fallen angels do though. We are born immature, without understanding and knowledge and not being in His presence. Then, as we grow and sin, we sin against our conscience and the moral law of God. God tries to draw us and influence us, etc., and we reject. If at any point in time during our probationary period here on Earth God gives us the greatest amount of knowledge of Him that is possible and we reject it, then we become reprobates. God has done ALL HE CAN DO! There's nothing else God can do to help the sinner at that point.
So, God can give up on a sinner in this life. Even if someone doesn't become a reprobate in this life, every person who dies in their sins automatically becomes a reprobate. God alone has the power of life and death. Every person who ever has died or ever will die has been either killed by God or God allowed them to die. Therefore, if someone dies in their sins, God has give up on them. There time to repent has run out. There is no more that God can do for that person. They are reprobates...
As far as the limited atonement question, well, when Calvinists talk about a "limited atonement", they aren't saying that it is limited only to humans. They are saying that it is limited only to a certain few, select humans that God picked out before the beginning of time. THAT is what I reject. I mean, we could say that it is a limited atonement because Christ didn't die to save dogs, trees, birds and fish. We could say limited atonement because Christ didn't shed his blood for aliens (no, I don't believe in aliens), but that isn't what the doctrine of limited atonement says...
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jsides
Junior Member
Posts: 81
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Post by jsides on Jan 6, 2009 14:43:59 GMT -5
The bible does not teach porbationary periods nor for a human nor angel. Some say u are born neutral but that is not the case as Christ said u are either for me or against me just look what he will do to the lukewarm church. According to scripture I do not believe Satan can repent an believe on Christ. If atonement is only made to humans then it is selective as it would not apply to dogs trees and so forth as they do not have sin however fallen angels do but yet even you would affirm he did not choose to atone for there sin. If he can choose which sins to atone for can he not be even selective within humans even an armenian could believe this as they could conclude God looked into the future to see if they would respond to his offer and yet because he knew they would not unnessery atonement would not be needed.
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jsides
Junior Member
Posts: 81
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Post by jsides on Jan 6, 2009 14:58:23 GMT -5
Interesting you say Satan would never accept atonement even if it were made for him how do you know if the idea of open theism is correct your statement cannot be correct.
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Post by dmatic on Jan 6, 2009 16:06:18 GMT -5
I think Jesus said that the devil has been lying since the beginning.
I'm not sure if that means his beginning, but it may. In other words, maybe satan never was in "heaven"! Maybe God created him as a liar!
Peace, dmatic
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Post by Kerrigan on Jan 6, 2009 16:43:16 GMT -5
The bible does not teach porbationary periods nor for a human nor angel. Oh yeah it does. I encourage everyone to check this out for themselves. I preached a message called, " Initial Salvation, Final Salvation and Probation" a while back. It is FILLED with Scriptures that back up all three Biblical doctrines. Just as a side note, Tozer said something to the effect of, "A man of God needs to preach about and restore the Biblical doctrine of probation." I suppose that you are referring to Matthew 12:30? If so, you have just done what Calvinists ALWAYS do when it comes to their false doctrines. You have just isolated a verse that has nothing to do with the doctrine you are trying to prove through it- Original Sin. In this passage Jesus was addressing the Pharisees who were claiming that he was casting out demons by the power of Beelzebul. If you want to know what Jesus thought of children, let alone new born babies, go read Matthew 18:3 and 19:13-15. Babies are born innocent, having done no good nor evil. As I said, He did not atone for their sins, for it would be a waste of time. They will NEVER repent. And God doesn't know this because He "looked into the future and saw it". Like I said. they became reprobate as soon as they sinned because of the knowledge that they sinned against. Because they sinned against FULL knowledge of God, there is no hope for them to repent. There is nothing more that God can do for them... All in all, your atonement view is off in my mind. Christ made a way for all sinners to be reconciled to God through His Blood. It is not a matter of atoning for this sin or that sin and not atoning for this sin or that sin. It is a matter of Christ making a way for sinners to be forgiven. You are coming from the point of view that Christ was an exact payment for a literal amount of sins. The Bible doesn't teach that and I don't believe that. Oh, and by the way, I'm not an "Arminian" or an "Open Theist"
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jsides
Junior Member
Posts: 81
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Post by jsides on Jan 6, 2009 19:20:53 GMT -5
Maybe Satan was not cast out of heaven are you serious of course he was. Iam not using Matthew 12:30 as proof text for original sin as there are an abudance of other scriptures for that. Revk I know you are neither an Arminian or Open theist however you have also said you are open to the idea open theism could be true and I am attempting to show the fallacy behind it. I really have no desire to try and convince you calvinism is biblical there are some here who are say perhaps on the fence about certain subjects and it is my desire to shed what light I can by the grace of God. If you or I are already convinced on a topic then it just ends up being an arguement that does not please God.I would be happy to discuss any topic as long as we can reason together and not already convinced about the subject because if we are already determined in our understanding it does not do either one of us any good.
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Post by John McGlone on Jan 6, 2009 21:12:40 GMT -5
So jsides, this post was about the fallacy of open theism? I thought it was about Satan being able to repent? Maybe that was a little deceptive on your part.
Lucifer was in intimate fellowship with God, he betrayed the One who created him. He also tempted 1/3 of the other creatures in heaven against the Almighty. This is why God created Hell, for Satan and his demons. Did God create Hell for humans?
By the way, who exactly have you read about open theism anyway? What exactly is your understanding of this often misunderstood and maligned theological system.
Lastly, I am not an open theist, I am a Christian.
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Post by manderson on Jan 6, 2009 21:21:19 GMT -5
The Bible teaches that Satan is cast into the lake of Fire with his elfs.
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jsides
Junior Member
Posts: 81
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Post by jsides on Jan 6, 2009 21:46:52 GMT -5
John it was not deceptive at all nor did I say this post was about open theism. As Im sure you agree alot of subject matter on here is intertwined example if I mention sin someone may ask if Iam referring to past present or future sin. John in response to your question I believe hell was created before humans existed. In order for me to gain an understanding of any particulure view I resource the subject matter from various points of view in order to fully understand the position pros and cons. Not yet has any one accused me of falsely representing there ideas. Some misrepresent Calvinism saying God does not make robots as if I believed that.
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Post by Kerrigan on Jan 6, 2009 21:58:29 GMT -5
jsides, what proof do you have for this statement? Also, who do you believe Hell was created for? As far as your response to my last post, it is not about convincing me to be a Calvinist or me convincing you to stop being one. It's about discussing the Scriptures. That's what I thought we were doing. Are you bailing out now or do you have a response to my last post. I'm open to being wrong, as long as it can be shown that I am wrong from the Bible. Are you open to Calvinism being wrong, because it doesn't seem like it? I'm here to help those who are "on the fence" as well. God forbid that they become Calvinists! That would be horrible! ;D
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jsides
Junior Member
Posts: 81
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Post by jsides on Jan 6, 2009 22:32:23 GMT -5
I did not say I had proof I said I believe. No one with certainty can say when hell was created or for that matter exactly when Satan sinned. Hell was created for Satan and his angels the wrath of God was abiding on Satan and yet it also abides on all those who do not believe. I believe our time would be wasted trying to convince each other if Calvinism is true or not because I believe you and I have done enough research on the matter.If there is a topic you or I are on the fence about I would like to discuss that.
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Post by Kerrigan on Jan 6, 2009 22:42:36 GMT -5
jsides, if God had eternally predestined certain people to Hell, then why would the Word of God even say that it was originally created for the devil and his angels? Why wouldn't it of said that it was created for everyone who would go there? I didn't say that you had to have proof for when Hell was created, just wondering if you did or not. For there to be a Hell before humans were created, Satan would of had to of sinned before humans were created. I believe that all of the angels were part of the 6 day creation. I know that we don't know exactly when Satan and a third of the angels fell, but it would seem really unlikely that they sinned right after they were created and before Adam was created on the 6th day...
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jsides
Junior Member
Posts: 81
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Post by jsides on Jan 7, 2009 0:12:29 GMT -5
God predestines to save some and predestines not to save others although the Bible does not say why certain ones are chosen and others not. Hell being originally created for the devil I believe has to do with order of Gods creation not of importance but rather 1st being 2 being and so forth. I believe although not with certainty Satan was created first therefore hell being originally for him as I believe he was the first to sin. I tend to believe as you do angels were created in the six day creation although I need more time to reflect on it. The arch angel Michael had a beginning as did lucifer but Iam not sure if the bible is referring to all that had a beginning in the same context.
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Post by dmatic on Jan 7, 2009 17:15:12 GMT -5
jsides writes:
Jesus said that satan sinned from the beginning!
What proof do you have to contradcit Him?
dmatic
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kenm
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Post by kenm on Jan 7, 2009 17:46:00 GMT -5
Hey Kerrigan,
Could you give me your view of Job 38:7? With your commment from above I am curious if you agree with most of the commentaries that I have read on Job 38:7 as angels being spoken of existing already during creation.
Thanks
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jsides
Junior Member
Posts: 81
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Post by jsides on Jan 7, 2009 18:14:53 GMT -5
Dmatic it is not a contradiction but rather trying to get an understanding of when Satan sinned was he created sinning if so then he would have never had any right fellowship with God although we know at one time he did or start sinning once the earth had its beginning.
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Post by dmatic on Jan 7, 2009 19:58:40 GMT -5
What proof do you have that satan had "right" fellowship with God?
Thanks, dmatic
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jsides
Junior Member
Posts: 81
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Post by jsides on Jan 7, 2009 22:12:04 GMT -5
Just Bible proof is all I have - Ezekiel 28:13-15 Gen1:31 if ya need more Ill provide. Why do you suppose he fell from heaven do you need some scripture to back up that he was in heaven?
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Post by John McGlone on Jan 8, 2009 23:24:24 GMT -5
Ez 28:12-19 ‘Thus says the Lord GOD:
“ You were the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The sardius, topaz, and diamond, Beryl, onyx, and jasper, Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes Was prepared for you on the day you were created. 14 “ You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones. 15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you. 16 “ By the abundance of your trading You became filled with violence within, And you sinned; Therefore I cast you as a profane thing Out of the mountain of God; And I destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the fiery stones. 17 “ Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor; I cast you to the ground, I laid you before kings, That they might gaze at you. 18 “ You defiled your sanctuaries By the multitude of your iniquities, By the iniquity of your trading; Therefore I brought fire from your midst; It devoured you, And I turned you to ashes upon the earth In the sight of all who saw you. All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you; You have become a horror, And shall be no more forever.”’”
Lucifer was in the garden of Eden, before: he sinned and was cast out of heaven, became the devil and then tempted Adam and Eve to destruction.
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Post by Steve Noel on Jan 9, 2009 10:42:51 GMT -5
jsides, Are you serious? Is this really supposed to be an argument for the Reformed doctrine of limited atonement? Those who reject the Reformed doctrine of limited atonement reject it because it's not found in Scripture. If you want to make your point you will have to explain how 1 John 2:2 (and many other texts) can be reconciled with limited atonement. Arguing that we limit the atonement to humans isn't going to get you very far. Just some advice... Steve
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Post by joemccowan on Jan 9, 2009 10:54:54 GMT -5
Hey Kerrigan, Could you give me your view of Job 38:7? With your commment from above I am curious if you agree with most of the commentaries that I have read on Job 38:7 as angels being spoken of existing already during creation. Thanks I can't speak for Kerrigan, but I believe the creation of the angels preceded the creation of the material world, though I can't say by how long. The fall was definitely after creation was complete and hell was a subsequent creation in response to the rebellion lead by Lucifer. The cause and effect scenarios don't fit into reformed dogma. Blessings, Joe
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jsides
Junior Member
Posts: 81
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Post by jsides on Jan 9, 2009 12:59:41 GMT -5
Steve it is one example there are many scriptures supporting Limited atonement. The main problem here is when I do give scripture such as all have sinned none is rightous and so forth it it gets ignored or some try and change the clear meaning. John the scripture just proved what I said as I was also asked how do I know Lucifer ever had a right relationship with God.
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Post by dmatic on Jan 13, 2009 11:57:54 GMT -5
Just Bible proof is all I have - Ezekiel 28:13-15 Gen1:31 if ya need more Ill provide. Why do you suppose he fell from heaven do you need some scripture to back up that he was in heaven? I could use more, because the ones you provided do not serve your purpose. The Ezekiel passage is speaking about the King of Tyre (I think it is a verse earlier than where you started. It is directly speaking to him, not to satan.) The Gen 1:31 verse is speaking of God's creation as good. I think, further along, it says something like now the serpant was more subtle than the beasts that God had created.... This could imply that satan was created after the creation of man. Peace, dmatic
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