doug
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Post by doug on Jan 6, 2009 19:57:30 GMT -5
Regarding Gaza strip, when Joshua replaced Moses, God continually commanded Israel to drive out the Canaanites, but Israel failed to obey God in several areas. In consequence, Joshua gave a curse,’Know for a certainty that the LORD your God will NO MORE drive out any of these nations from before you; but they shall be snares and traps unto you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until ye perish from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.’ Joshua 23:13. God stated his curse again against Israel in Judges 2:20 ‘And the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel; and he said, Because that this people hath transgressed my covenant which I commanded their fathers, and have not hearkened unto my voice; 21 I also will NOT henceforth drive out any from before them of the nations which Joshua left when he died:’ The passage continues and mentions the cities specifically in the Gaza strip. And we find that that Gaza, Ashkelon and that little strip which was once Philistia (Palestina)has never truly been conquered by Israel because of Israel’s ancient unpurged sin. Yet, modern political ‘Israel’ has raised its hand against God’s ancient decree, again, and God will remember it as he is no respecter of nations. Until the end comes, the land is to be shared. The ancient decree has been written, so shall it be done.
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Post by debonnaire on Jan 7, 2009 9:54:39 GMT -5
Yet, modern political ‘Israel’ has raised its hand against God’s ancient decree, again, and God will remember it as he is no respecter of nations. Why are you saying that modern Israel is raising its hand against God at this moment ?
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doug
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Post by doug on Jan 7, 2009 12:36:08 GMT -5
Why are you asking seeing my post had already addressed it? If you disagree with the post, just say so.
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Post by debonnaire on Jan 7, 2009 14:05:44 GMT -5
I wanted to be sure before ...
It is true that Israel as a nation had sinned in the time of the philistines or Canaanites... But we can't say that Israel is commtting NOW the same disobedience. Because the opposition that Israel has to face is allowed by God !
Zechariah 12 1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him. 2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. 3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. 4 In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.
It is God who hardens the heart of the nations against Israel, and it is God who so far has divinely protected Israel in her wars against the Arab nations around.
God has brought a great burden upon Israel, at the end it will be for her good , when they will cry to God for their salvation.
Zechariah 12 9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. 11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. 12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart; 13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart; 14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart. All Israel or the remnant of it will be saved en masse, they will be saved in the end but not by their weapons.
Gettind rid of their enemies in their midst or not , would not change a thing to the Scriptures for the end-times that will be fullfilled eventually.
The sin of Israel as a nation is not that they do not kill all their enemies in their midst , but that they still don't acknowledged the Lord as their saviour.
You are right in saying that the whole biblical land promised to Israel will not belonged to Israel completely , but the only reason for that is that God will not allow it. Israel will become the great Israel only at Jesus' return. Israel needs Jesus. So for the moment God will continue to use the enemies of Israel to bring her to Him.
You have a weird notion of what sin is for a nation since Jesus has come we are not anymore in the same time and revelation than in the time of the Canaanites.
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doug
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Post by doug on Jan 8, 2009 0:02:06 GMT -5
What you call a weird notion is what the Bible teaches as you can see most plainly from the two passages I quoted. Since when does Jesus' first coming abrogate the penalty charged against Israel under the Old Covenant? Those who seek to be justified under the Old Covenant are under a curse. Have you also never read in several places in the early fathers how the antichrist will make a counterfeit restoration of Israel as though it were fulfillment of prophecy? You have a 'weird' hermeneutic that if applied to all blessings and curses under the Old Covenant would utterly make the Old Testament writings useless to Christians. You utterly abrogate the Law. But then, Finney NEVER held the two-people theology. He always insisted that Israel was the Church under the Old Covenant and that the Church is Israel under the New Covenant. I dare you to ask for quotes, debonnaire Darbyite. How do you know that it was not the devil who brought about modern 'israel'?
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doug
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Post by doug on Jan 8, 2009 0:27:27 GMT -5
And, if the passage, 'so all Israel will be saved' is foretelling the future, does this not do away with free will? Is an Israeli an IsraelITE? Think before you write. Dispies haven't thought that one through. For, did you know almost anyone can become an Israeli citizen by naturalization after three years? Did you know there are Muslims, Druze, Bedouins and Samaritan israelis who are NOT Jews either by birth or by religion? Have you not read that multitudes of Palestinian Arabs in the West Bank applied for Israeli citizenship in order to avoid future hardships? Did you know more multitudes of Palestinians were automatically granted citizenship because they were in the israeli occupied territory from before 1948? What about the multitudes of Jews who reject political zion and have rejected Israeli citizenship? Are they no longer part of your 'Israel'? You are wrong in saying that Israel's earlier sins under the Old Covenant were thrown out of court so to speak and were replaced by the sin of rejecting Christ! God does not change. God rejected Old Covenant Israel because they rejected the God who keeps covenant. Josephus, the Dead Sea Scroll community and the Talmud all testify that the Jewish people regarded themselves as still under the curse of God. They saw it as their mandate to be strangers and wanderers in the earth until Messiah comes and gathers them and removes the curse. Those are the times of restoration spoken of by all the prophets. How is it that you do not know this?
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doug
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Post by doug on Jan 8, 2009 1:35:46 GMT -5
EX 22:21 'Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.' Ah, but Debonnaire, you have said "YOU have a WEIRD notion of what sin is for a nation since Jesus has come we are not anymore in the same time and revelation than in the time of the Canaanites. " To YOU, what matters is that they, under their leaders, made a public solemn commitment before Pilate to disown Christ...although the apostles maintain it was still done in PARTIAL ignorance and therefore they were given the OPPORTUNITY to repent. The Bible maintains that God rejected Israel long before the Incarnation was given. The crucifixion was merely another sin added to the scale which had long since bottomed out in the scales of justice, although God has made it the means of redemption for all nations, according to his predestination and foreknowledge. Is any nation exempt from the moral law which also forbad ancient Israel from oppressing and vexing strangers? No, but here is an antinomian calvinist dispensationalist, 'elder member' with FIVE stars beside his name who teaches SECOND CHANCE SALVATION too! Does 2 Thessalonians 1:8-10 teach that? "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day." If Jews get a second chance at this time, then so should muslims. CONSCIENCE speaking!!!! Yeah, take a look at that passage again and learn from the Apostles.
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Post by debonnaire on Jan 8, 2009 4:17:33 GMT -5
Debonnaire Darbyite ? Well , I don’t have a Darby bible. Darby believed in the false doctrine of the Pre-Trib rapture, which is not my case . Like the pre-Trib doctrine and other false doctrines like the WoF properity teaching , the doctrine or free will will cease to exist when the Great tribulation will be there. Yes I believe in the Sovereignty of God , In the book of Revelation, it is written that God will inspire to some of His enemies to bring destruction on Babylon. So where will be the free-will of those living in Babylon ? Ah ! “antinomian calvinist dispensationalist” , I have been called worse. But back to the point. No 2 Thessalonians 1:8-10 does not teach "2nd chance" , but other scriptures do. I have already mentioned Zachariah 12 , which is scriptures that have not been accomplished yet , so they have to be accomplished. Also read Romans 11, and see that the Jews will be grafted back to where they belong after having been blinded in part for a purpose. What you call a weird notion is what the Bible teaches as you can see most plainly from the two passages I quoted. Since when does Jesus' first coming abrogate the penalty charged against Israel under the Old Covenant?. Those who seek to be justified under the Old Covenant are under a curse. Have you also never read in several places in the early fathers how the antichrist will make a counterfeit restoration of Israel as though it were fulfillment of prophecy? You have a 'weird' hermeneutic that if applied to all blessings and curses under the Old Covenant would utterly make the Old Testament writings useless to Christians. You utterly abrogate the Law. But then, Finney NEVER held the two-people theology. He always insisted that Israel was the Church under the Old Covenant and that the Church is Israel under the New Covenant. I dare you to ask for quotes, debonnaire Darbyite. How do you know that it was not the devil who brought about modern 'israel'? And how do you know it is the devil ? You say that early fathers wrote about a counterfeit restoration of Israel : Why leaning on writings that are not in the Bible ? And who cares about what Finney had said on this matter, Finney was never an apostle or a prophet authorized to speak on these matters , at the opposite of Paul or Zachariah. what I know by the Scriptures is that God has not yet finished with the nation of Israel. Read Zachariah 12. Read Romans 11. The Church can not boast that all that is written about Israel is about the Church. There are writings about Israel which are specific to natural Israel. By the way the evil and adulterous generation who rejected Christ under their leaders, they made a public solemn commitment before Pilate to disown Christ, yes , but they did not said that this sin would to be imputed to ALL the generations of Jews after them .... What is your point exactly with all your posts ? One hand you say that Israel sins because Israel does not kill all the strangers in their midst, on the other hand you recall the commandment that Israel should not vex not oppress a stranger. Also in one post you say that I am wrong in saying that today Israel is not guilty of obeying the commandmant that was directed to the generation in the O.T and that her only sin as a nation is to have rejected Christ, and in another post you say yourself that Israel is cursed because they have rejected Christ. So i don't know what position you want to express ? Are you still saying that today Israel is sinning if they do not slaughter all Arabs , Druzes , Armininans , Christians and Muslims living in Israel ? Yes or No ?
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doug
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Post by doug on Jan 8, 2009 19:51:34 GMT -5
You put words in my mouth. You don't know my position because of your bent to selectively read what you wish rather than what I wrote. If research is 'leaning on writings outside the Bible' then whooptidoo. Go back to the first post instead of trying to be clever.
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Post by debonnaire on Jan 9, 2009 9:43:30 GMT -5
I will try to remember not to answer to your posts in the future.
Bye.
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doug
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Post by doug on Jan 10, 2009 0:33:28 GMT -5
Feel free to answer them, by all means. Just read them first.
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jsides
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Post by jsides on Jan 11, 2009 17:13:21 GMT -5
Any watched Against dispensationalism produced by NiceneCouncil.com very helpful.
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doug
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Post by doug on Feb 14, 2009 8:22:36 GMT -5
thanks jsides, great material on that site, although they represent a reformed position. It is refreshing to see those calvin-oriented being conscious of the errors of antinomianism as found in dispensationalism. I really like the article exposing John Hagee's dual-covenant theology. dead on. Having understood Finney's view of sanctification as being dependent on the Promises of God, it became clear that if the church is not Israel, then there are no promises of sanctification in the Old Testament for believers. The church/israel split undermines every effort to promote revival unless we can claim by faith God's promises to sanctify his people.
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