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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jan 14, 2009 0:24:57 GMT -5
"entire obedience to God's law is possible on the ground of natural ability. To deny this is to deny that man is able to do as well as he can. The very language of the law is such as to level its claims to the capacity of the subject, however great or small that capacity may be. "Thou shalt love he Lord thy God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, with all thy mind, and with all thy strength" (Deut 6:5). Here then it is plain, that all the law demands, is the exercise of whatever strength we have, in the service of God. Now, as entire sanctification is nothing more than the right use of whatever strength we have, it is, of course, forever settled, that a state of entire sanctification is attainable in this life, on the ground of natural ability." Charles Finney
"In the manner of good-for-nothing and haughty servants, we cry out against the face of God and say, It is hard, it is difficult, we cannot do it, we are but men, we are encompassed by frail flesh! [The argument of the Gnostics] What blind madness! What unholy foolhardiness! We accuse God of a twofold lack of knowledge, so that he appears not to know what he has done, and not to know what he has commanded; as if, forgetful of the human frailty of which he is himself the author, he has imposed on man commands which he cannot bear. And, at the same time, oh horror!, we ascribe iniquity to the righteous and cruelty to the holy, while complaining, first, that he has commanded something impossible, secondly, that man is to be damned by him for doing things which he was unable to avoid, so that God and this is something which even to suspect is sacrilege seems to have sought not so much our salvation as our punishment!" Pelagius
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Post by debonnaire on Jan 14, 2009 4:34:24 GMT -5
Now, as entire sanctification is nothing more than the right use of whatever strength we have, it is, of course, forever settled, that a state of entire sanctification is attainable in this life, on the ground of natural ability." Charles Finney Finney taught not rightly what entire sanctification is. What is entire sanctification ? Entire sanctification is perfection. We read in the scriptures that even the righteous prophets of the O.T did not attained perfection ! God was pleased with them, but saying that entire sanctification can be attained without Christ is false teaching for it goes beyond of what is written. 1 Thessalonians 5:23-25 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jan 14, 2009 9:32:10 GMT -5
Entire sanctification is a state of entire obedience to God's law.
Even before Jesus Christ, in the Old Testament, men were totally submitted to God or "perfect".
Therefore Jesus didn't come to give us the ability to obey God, since men obeyed God before He came.
Jesus created us with a free will, therefore creating us with the ability to choose to be entirely sanctified. Then Jesus gave us His example and His teaching to help us. His Gospel is the strongest influence upon our hearts to obey God.
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Post by debonnaire on Jan 14, 2009 14:14:38 GMT -5
I don't know what is this obssession with this topic ...
The apostles preached Jesus and Him crucified !
Before Christ came, the Way of Holiness was not opened [Isaiah 35]
If Isaiah prophesied this, who are we to say otherwise ?
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Post by dmatic on Jan 14, 2009 14:43:26 GMT -5
Very Good Jesse! Thank you for sharing these quotes.
debbonaire writes that he wonders about the "obsession" with this topic...but for those of us who have tried to discuss the possibility of obeying Christ's command to "Be ye perfect as your Heavenly father is perfect", it is no wonder! Due to the general obstinancy and mis-teaching that has surrounded it.
Thanks for "spurring" us on brother Jesse!
debbonaire objected:
I know of no one who is even suggesting that sanctification can be attained without Christ! Who do you know who is?
Thanks, dmatic
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Post by debonnaire on Jan 14, 2009 15:49:30 GMT -5
I know of no one who is even suggesting that sanctification can be attained without Christ! Who do you know who is?Charles Finney said it Now, as entire sanctification is nothing more than the right use of whatever strength we have, it is, of course, forever settled, that a state of entire sanctification is attainable in this life, on the ground of natural ability; Charles Finney He spoke of entire sanctification , on the ground of natural ability.
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Post by joeldad on Jan 14, 2009 16:21:41 GMT -5
I know of no one who is even suggesting that sanctification can be attained without Christ! Who do you know who is?Charles Finney said it Now, as entire sanctification is nothing more than the right use of whatever strength we have, it is, of course, forever settled, that a state of entire sanctification is attainable in this life, on the ground of natural ability; Charles Finney He spoke of entire sanctification , on the ground of natural ability. Everything Finney wrote about was with the understanding that such things come only by the influence of the Holy Spirit. Edited to add: This is especially plain when reading his autobiography.
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Post by Kerrigan on Jan 14, 2009 18:45:38 GMT -5
I know of no one who is even suggesting that sanctification can be attained without Christ! Who do you know who is?Charles Finney said it He spoke of entire sanctification , on the ground of natural ability. Everything Finney wrote about was with the understanding that such things come only by the influence of the Holy Spirit. Edited to add: This is especially plain when reading his autobiography. PLUS, Finney taught that there was no forgiveness or remission of past sins without the blood atonement of Christ. Without the sin offering of Christ, it wouldn't matter how holy you are presently living or will live in the future. Your past sins are still counted against you!
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jan 14, 2009 21:17:09 GMT -5
"Entire sanctification, instead, of implying no further dependence on the grace of Christ, implies the constant appropriation of Christ by faith as the sanctification of the soul." Charles Finney in the same lecture as the first quote.
Again, "Sin, as a matter of fact, is never overcome by any man in his own strength." Charles Finney
Again, "This doctrine... ascribes the whole of salvation and sanctification from first to last, not only till the soul is sanctified, but at every moment while it remains in that state, to the indwelling spirit, and influence, and grace of Christ," Charles Finney
Men are naturally capable of obeying God. But men are unwilling to obey God. Therefore they need the grace (gracious influence) of God in order to actually do what they are capable of doing. God must present truth to the mind of man in order to change their will from being disobedient to obedient. While the will of man is naturally capable of obeying, sinners need the gracious influence of God in order to change from being unwilling to willing.
"A state of entire sanctification can never be attained... by any works of law, or works of any kind, performed in your own strength, irrespective of the grace of God. By this I do not mean, that, were you disposed to exert your natural powers aright, you could not at once obey the law in the exercise of your natural strength, and continue to do so. But I do mean, that as you are wholly indisposed to use your natural powers aright, without the grace of God, no efforts that you will actually make in your own strength, or independent of His grace, will ever result in your entire sanctification." Charles Finney
Entire sanctification is to be free from sin. Sin is violating the law of God. Therefore entire sanctification is to be obedient to the law of God.
The law of God does not require us to do what we are incapable of doing. God's law requires that we love God with all the ability we have (this is not impossible) and that we love our neighbor as much as we love ourselves (this is not impossible). Therefore entire sanctification (obedience to God's law) is attainable in this life on the grounds of our natural ability. But men need spiritual influence in order to do what they are naturally capable of doing.
"Nothing is wanting to slay any and every form of sin, but for the mind to be fully baptized into the death of Christ, and to see the bearings of one's own sins upon the sufferings, and agonies, and death of the blessed Jesus." Charles Finney
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Post by Kerrigan on Jan 14, 2009 21:44:04 GMT -5
From this laundry list of quotes that Jesse just posted, it seems that dennonaire has some splaining to do...
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jan 14, 2009 22:21:23 GMT -5
I can see how that first quote could lead to misunderstanding for those who are not familiar with Finney's full view.
Finney was simply saying that entire sanctification is possible, on the grounds of natural ability. He never said that entire sanctification was actually attained by nothing more than natural ability. In fact, Finney affirmed that only by grace, or the gracious influence of God, is entire sanctification attained in this life. The possibility, and the attainment, are two different things. It is possible, on the grounds of free will, for men to never ever sin in their whole lives. But nobody has ever actually done that. Likewise, men are naturally capable of obeying God, but they are unwilling to do so. They need God's intervention and influence. We need supernatural influence to make us willing to do what we are naturally able of doing.
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Post by thesamson on Jan 15, 2009 0:04:11 GMT -5
"They need God's intervention and influence. We need supernatural influence to make us willing to do what we are naturally able of doing."
So your saying that men are completly dead in trespasses and sin and utterly helpless to come to know that Jesus is the Messaiah, the Son of God and the Son of Man? Morover they are not able to believe in Him and come to the knowledge of the truth unless God does something inside a sinner first?
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Post by thesamson on Jan 15, 2009 0:25:01 GMT -5
I wouldnt agree entirely with Finney. However, I was taught that sanctification is attainable in this life. For example, at the very moment of salvation, the Holy Spirit works alone REGENERATING the dead soul of a sinner(Titus 3:5). At that very moment SANCTIFICATION also happens in two aspects. 1. DEFENITIVE: done all at once (Col 1:13, 1Cor 1:2, 6:11) 2. PROGRESSIVE: a process life long ( 2 Cor 3:17-18, Heb 12:14) (The regenerated person (a Christian) cooperates with the Holy Spirit in the progressive aspect of sanctififcation (both work at this) This is a work empowered by God's grace ( Phil 2:13). This will go on for the rest of the Christians life.)
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Post by thesamson on Jan 15, 2009 0:29:51 GMT -5
Furthermore , sanctify means- to set apart as sacred; to make holy; to set apart for Gods purposes and holiness.
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Post by debonnaire on Jan 15, 2009 4:10:05 GMT -5
From this laundry list of quotes that Jesse just posted, it seems that dennonaire has some splaining to do... it is indeed better to have the quote in full context
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jan 15, 2009 8:15:31 GMT -5
thesamson,
Regeneration is when the Holy Spirit brings a man to repentance and faith through the influence of truth presented to their minds. The Spirit is involved and active in regeneration. Truth is involved and active in regeneration. Preachers are (often) involved and active in regeneration. And the sinner himself is involved and active in regeneration. The usual method of regeneration is when a preacher, with the help of the Holy Spirit, convicts the mind of a sinner influencing him to repentance and faith. And the regeneration actually occurs when the sinner repents and believes. Regeneration is synergism, not monergism. The sinner is not passive in regeneration while God alone is active. Regeneration is not when God makes men capable of obeying Him.
Regeneration is not a changing of our constitution or our faculties. Regeneration is a change of use of our constitution and our faculties. "Dead in sin" does not mean that sinners are incapable of obeying God. "Dead in sin" means that sinners do not have a relationship with God, because they are using their free will to sin like the Prodigal Son. The Prodigal Son was free to leave the Father and free to return to the Father, but was still "dead" even though he was free.
Regeneration is not a metaphysical or a physical change. Regeneration is a moral change, and therefore it is not done by force or without the consent of the sinner himself. Regeneration is synonymous with conversion. Regeneration is when a person decides, under the influence of God, to forsake all sin and follow Jesus Christ. Regeneration is a radical change of heart, that is, it is the transformation of a person's will, which consequently affects their entire life.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jan 15, 2009 8:21:20 GMT -5
This is something I've put together on the biblical doctrine of regeneration:
The Doctrine of Regeneration
“The work accomplished is a change of choice, in respect to an end or end of life. The sinner whose choice is changed, must of course act. The end to be chosen must be clearly and forcibly presented; this is the work of the third person, and of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit takes the things of Christ and shows them to the soul. The truth is employed, or it is truth which must necessarily be employed, as an instrument to induce a change of choice.” Charles Finney, Systematic Theology, pg 275
“Truth; this must, from the nature of regeneration, be employed in effecting it, for regeneration is nothing else than the will being duly influenced by truth.” Charles Finney, Systematic Theology, pg 275
“Regeneration is nothing else than his embracing the gospel.” Charles Finney, Systematic Theology, pg 276
"Regeneration is a moral change wrought in the hearts of men by the Holy Spirit. This change is neither physical nor intellectual, although both the body and the mind my be affected by it. It is not a change in the substance of the soul, nor is it the addition of any new powers. Regeneration is not a metamorphosis of human nature. Man does not receive a new ego. His personal identity is the same in essence after regeneration as before. He has the same power of intellect, feeling and will, but these are given a new direction. God does not undue in the new creation what He did in the first creation. The change is, therefore, not in the natural constitution of man, but in his moral and spiritual nature. Furthermore, it is important to believe that the whole man, and not merely certain powers of his being, is the subject of this spiritual renewel." (Christian Theology, V.2, p. 419)
The Biblical Doctrine of Regeneration by the Spirits Revelation:
2Pet 2:20 “For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world THROUGH THE KNOWLEDGE of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ”
1Pet 1:22 “Seeing ye have PURIFIED your souls in OBEYING THE TRUTH through the Spirit”
2Pet 1:2-3 “Grace and peace be multiplied unto you THROUGH THE KNOWLEDGE of God and of Jesus our Lord, according as His divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, THROUGH THE KNOWLEDGE of him that hath called us to glory and virtue.”
John 6:63 “It is the SPIRIT THAT QUICKENETH; the flesh profiteth nothing: THE WORDS that I SPEAK unto you, they are SPIRIT, and they are LIFE.”
John 6:45 “It is written in the prophets, and they shall be all TAUGHT of God. Everyman therefore that hath HEARD, and hath LEARNED of the Father, cometh unto me.”
John 8:32 “And ye shall KNOW the TRUTH, and the TRUTH shall make you FREE.”
Titus 2:11-12 “For the grace of God that BRINGETH SALVATION has APPEARED unto all men, TEACHING US that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present world.”
1Tim 2:4 “Who will have all men to be saved and to come unto the KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH.”
1Cor 4:15 “For though ye have ten thousand INSTRUCTORS in Christ, yet have yet not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have BEGOTTEN you through the GOSPEL.”
Ps 17:7 “SHOW thy marvelous loving-kindness, O thou that savest”
James 1:18 “Of his own will BEGAT he us WITH THE WORD OF TRUTH, that we should be a king of firstfruits of his creatures.”
1Pet 1:23 “BEING BORN AGAIN, not of corruptible seed, but of the incorruptible, BY THE WORD OF GOD, which liveth and abideth forever.”
James 1:21-22 “Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted WORD, WHICH IS ABLE TO SAVE YOUR SOULS. But be ye DOERS OF THE WORD, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.”
Rom 2:8 “But unto them that are contentious, and DO NOT OBEY THE TRUTH, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath.”
2Thes 1:8 “In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that KNOW not God, and that OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
John 15:3 “Now ye are CLEANE THROUGH THE WORD which I have SPOKEN unto you.”
1Pet 4:17 “For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL of God?”
John 17:17 “SANCTIFY them THROUGH THY TRUTH: thy WORD is TRUTH.”
Rom 6:17 “But God be thanked, that ye were servants of sin, but ye have OBEYED from the heart that form of DOCTRINE which was DELIVERED unto you.”
Ps 25:8 “Good and upright is the Lord, therefore will he TEACH sinners in the way.”
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Post by logic on Jan 16, 2009 9:52:56 GMT -5
Morover they are not able to believe in Him and come to the knowledge of the truth unless God does something inside a sinner first? IF God must do something inside a sinner first, then HE must do that INSIDE ALLL mankind in order not to be partial. I would say He does it all outside of man untill the man responds correctly. Then, whith the man's correct responce, God moves to do the work inside.
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Post by rescuedbymary06 on Jan 16, 2009 14:07:19 GMT -5
Jesse,
Would you please stop buttonholeing other people?
It makes you look really silly and imature.
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Post by thesamson on Jan 16, 2009 18:36:14 GMT -5
Logic, I think that man is unable to come to the knowledge of the truth unless the Father draws that person to Christ.(John 6) The natural man apart from grace and the truth will not come to Him because he is not able of himself to do so. He actually hates everything God stands for because he is dead and a slave to sin. His heart is twisted and deceitful. For instance, look at Peter. Jesus told him in the Book of John, it was he who had chose him, not the other way around after Peter said, "we have come to believe that your are the Holy one of God." (John 6) Furthermore Jesus said that "it is the Spirit who gives life, the flesh counts for nothing." (John 6) So to answer your question further, it is God who choses first, and it is he who saves. He is the Intiater and the Completer of man's salavation (phil)
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