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Post by thesamson on Jan 17, 2009 18:04:10 GMT -5
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him" How do you interpret this verse?
I was taught that the greek for draw here is to drag. For example, the greek word draw here is the same word that is used in Acts 17: 6 " And when they could not find them they dragged Jason and some of the brothers before the city authorities." However, there some that say that to draw is to entice or to whoo. I agree that the word means to drag. As I was taught, when a person draws a bucket of water from a well for a drink, a person does not entice or whoo the pail of water from the well, but must physically pull it up. In conclusion, I agree that God must open our eyes, ears, and gives a new heart to accept the Gospel before we come to Christ. God must act first, then we can come to Jesus, not the other way around. Although I can see that it may seem that way because we cant see God acting. What is you opinion?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jan 17, 2009 18:40:14 GMT -5
The context of this passage is very clear. The next verse tells us what it means for God to "draw" us:
"It is written in the prophets, and they shall all be TAUGHT of God. Every man therefore that hath HEARD, and hath LEARNED of the Father, cometh unto me." John 6:45
Unless the Father teaches a person about Jesus, they cannot come unto Jesus. Only those who learn about Jesus can come to Jesus.
This teaching is irresistible. Man does not choose to have it. God forces it upon us. Man does not choose to be drawn in this manner. Man is free to obey or disobey the revelation he receives, but man is not free to receive or not receive this revelation. God forces truth upon our minds whether we like it or not. But we are free to obey the truth or disobey the truth.
But the point is that we have a free will, but free will cannot obey knowledge that it doesn't have. You cannot come unless you first hear and learn. That is why teaching must come before obedience. No man can come unto Jesus unless the Father teaches them about Jesus.
"And Jesus answered and said unto him, blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not REVEALED it unto thee, but my FATHER which is in heaven." Matthew 16:17
Since the will is only free to obey the revelation that the mind has, missionaries are important. No man can come to Jesus until AFTER they have heard about Jesus. "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him" makes perfect sense. It is not confusing at all.
"How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed, and how shall they believe in him whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?" Romans 10:14
Calvinists often take John 6:44 out of context to teach predestination and natural inability (no free will). But this is to brutalize the Bible, to completely twist it away from its original meaning. This passage, in context, simply means that free will can only obey the revelation that the mind has. That makes sense. Until the mind receives revelation, the will is not capable of obeying that revelation. Man is free to obey or disobey the revelation that He has. That is what free will is. No man can choose to come to Jesus until he has first heard and learned from the Father about Jesus.
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Post by logic on Jan 17, 2009 22:17:40 GMT -5
This teaching is irresistible. Man does not choose to have it. God forces it upon us. Man does not choose to be drawn in this manner. Man is free to obey or disobey the revelation he receives, but man is not free to receive or not receive this revelation. God forces truth upon our minds whether we like it or not. But we are free to obey the truth or disobey the truth. What do you mean hear? Is it that truth is so very evident, that no one can deny it, but one may still reject it?
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Post by Kerrigan on Jan 17, 2009 23:35:42 GMT -5
logic, I think what Jesse means is that the mind affirms that what it is hearing is true and that the conscience bears witness. Whether or not the sinner submits to the truth that he knows is true is up to him. If he refuses to submit to the truth that is revealed to him, then he is suppressing the truth in unrighteousness...
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Post by thesamson on Jan 17, 2009 23:44:25 GMT -5
Jesse what do you say about the crowd who in Ch 6 of John, "Saw the signs he had done" believed that he was the "Prophet who was to come in the world," and even traveled across the sea of Galiliee seeking Jesus? They came to Jesus, heard the Gospel, but still did not believe. The bigger question is that Jesus said, "All that the Father has given me will come to me and whoever comes to me I will never cast out." (37) So if this is true then why did those people who physically came to Jesus not belive?. In addition, why did his own disciples "turn their back and no longer walk with him"? . Were these people GIVEN to Jesus to be saved? But it is clearly stated all that Father GIVES him will come to Him and he will not lose nothing of that the Father GIVES Him. Why did Jesus lose these people; moreover, why did they not believe and walk away? I guess this goes back to John 6: 44 "NOBODY can come to me UNLESS the Father who sent me draws him." In my opinninion the words to COME, or to be DRAWN or to be GIVEN is not refering to anything physical, but Spiritual. The next question is man really capable of coming into a relationship by their own power? As we have seen, people can physically come to Jesus, see his miracles, listen to his message but not at all be saved. As Jesus said, you did not seek me because you understood the signs (proof of his deity) but because you were fed and had your fill. Why is it that? It seems these people came for Physical reasons other than Spiritual reasons. In my opinion it is not that these people were mentally challenged or were not willing to believe, it is that they were not able to enter into a saving relationship with Jesus, for instance; as Peter or John, because they were Spiritually discerned; dead in their tresspasses and sins; blinded by Satan and enslaved to their sin. These people could get passed the Spiritual wall, it even after they saw his signs and heard his message, that said " For this is the will of the Father everyone who looks to the Son and belives in Him should have eternal life and I will raise them up on the Last dayl" In conclusion the Father did not Draw them to Christ spiritualy at all; either in their life time or not at that particular time. He did not open their eyes, ears, mind and heart to recive him as Savior and Lord and know the truth even after his miracles and his message. Is it fair? Ask God, thats all I can say.
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Post by logic on Jan 18, 2009 18:41:02 GMT -5
logic, I think what Jesse means is that the mind affirms that what it is hearing is true and that the conscience bears witness. Whether or not the sinner submits to the truth that he knows is true is up to him. If he refuses to submit to the truth that is revealed to him, then he is suppressing the truth in unrighteousness... That is what I thought, I only wanted to make sure & make it clear
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Post by pete777 on Jan 19, 2009 3:48:09 GMT -5
Jeremiah 31:3
3 The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee. KJV
God draws us with cords of love! It is the Holy Spirit that impresses our hearts with the love of Christ, and when we feel that sweet influence we let go of sin and Satan and follow righteousness and CHrist! Oh for more of the love of Christ in our souls, for the water of the heavenly grace to fill our needs. Drink up!
Blessings,
Matthew
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Post by dmatic on Jan 30, 2009 17:09:12 GMT -5
thesamson,
I agree with you! The word does not conote "free" will at all. In fact it contradicts "free" will.
It implies that the one being "dragged" to Y'Shua (Jesus) "WILL" come...and this not because of his "free" will, but because the Father is dragging him!
Praise God!
Our salvation is not dependent on the "will" of man. It is dependent on God's will, and His will is that none should perish, but that all come to repentance, which is also His work! He leads us to repent, so that one day....EVERY tounge "WILL" confess that Jesus is Lord, to the glory of God Who is doing the work within us to WILL! Every one will choose to confess this! Because it is God's will!
Peace, dmatic
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jan 30, 2009 17:45:48 GMT -5
If you reject free will, you end up being either a Calvinist or a Universalist.
The Bible teaches that God wants all men to be saved, yet not all men will be saved. Therefore, it must be true that man's will is free and also that man's will is involved in salvation.
Sin is proof that the will of God is not always done. The impenitence of sinners is proof that God's will is not always done.
Sin is proof that man's will is free. Impenitence is proof that man's will is free.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jan 30, 2009 18:04:21 GMT -5
GOD'S WILL IS NOT ALWAYS DONE:
Sin is not the will of God (Deut. 6:5; 10:12; Matt. 22:35-40; Mk. 12:30-31; Lk. 10:27; Rom. 13:8; 13:10; Gal 5:14; Jas. 2:8).
God wants men to be sinless (Gen. 17:1; Deut. 18:13; 1 Chro. 28:9; 2 Chro. 19:9; Ps. 4:4; Isa. 1:16; Matt. 5:48; Jn. 5:14; 8:11; 1 Cor. 15:31; 2 Cor. 13:11; Eph. 4:26-28; 1 Tim. 5:7; Rev. 3:2).
Yet sin occurs (Gen. 6:12; Exo. 32:7; Deut. 9:12; 32:5; Jdg. 2:19; Hos. 9:9; Ps. 14:2-3; Isa. 53:6; Ecc. 7:29; Zep. 3:7; Rom. 3:23).
Therefore the will of God is not always done (Isa. 5:2-4; Zach. 14:9; Matt. 6:10; Lk. 11:2).
This explains the broken heart of God. God is grieved and disappointed with men because of their sin (Gen. 6:5-6; 1 Sam. 15:35; Ps. 78:40; 81:13; 95:10; Isa. 1:14; 63:10; 53:3; Jer. 8:21; Eze. 6:9; Mk. 3:5; Eph. 4:30),
SALVATION IS OFFERED, NOT FORCED:
Christ died for all men (Isa. 45:22; 53:6; 55:1; Eze. 18:30-32; Matt. 23:37; Mk. 16:15-16; Lk. 2:10-11; Jn. 1:29; 3:16; Rom. 2:11; 5:15; Heb. 2:9; 2 Cor. 5:14-15; 1 Tim. 2:11; 4:10; Tit. 2:11; Heb. 2:9; 2 Pet. 2:1; 1 Jn. 2:22; Rev. 3:20), and He died for all specifically because all men have chosen to become sinners of their own free will (Isa. 52:3; 53:6).
There is no partiality with God (Rom. 2:11; 2 Pet. 1:17). God wants all to repent and be saved (Ps. 145:9; Eze. 18:32; 33:1; Act. 17:30-31; 1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9).
The atonement makes salvation possible and available, it is a gift that God offers to all to accept and receive (Jn. 1:11-12; Lk. 14:16-24; Rom 5:18) through a decision (2 Cor. 5:20) to repent and believe, though many reject God’s gracious offer (Isa. 65:2; Lk. 7:30; 14:16-24; Jn. 1:10-11; Rom. 10:21; 2 Thes. 1:8; 1 Pet. 4:17) and resist His grace (Gen. 6:3; Matt. 23:37; Lk. 7:30, 13:34; Acts 7:51).
God is trying to save all men (Jn. 3:16, 6:44-45, 12:32; 16:8; Acts 17:30-31, 2 Pet. 3:9). God gives light to all men (Jn. 1:9). God is convicting all men (Jn. 16:8). God is drawing all men (Jn. 6:44-45, 12:32). God is calling all men (Matt. 11:28, 22:9; Lk. 5:32; Acts 17:30; Rev. 22:17). God’s grace has appeared to all men (Rom. 5:15; Tit. 2:11-12).
But many are unwilling and refuse (Isa. 30:9; 30:15-16; Jer. 8:5; Eze. 20:7-8; Matt. 11:20-21; 23:37, Mk. 6:6; 7:30; 13:34; 14:17-18; 19:14; 19:27; Lk. 14:16-24 ;Jn. 5:40; Acts 7:51; 17:27; Rev. 2:21).
THE WILL OF MAN IS FREE:
God appealed to the natural ability of men in the Old Testament:
“And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him” (Gen. 4:6-7);
“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life” (Deut. 30:19);
“Choose you this day whom ye will serve” (Josh. 24:15);
“Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it” (Isa. 1:16-20);
“Seek ye the Lord while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon” (Isa. 55:6-7);
“Sow to yourselves in righteousness, reap in mercy; break up your fallow ground” (Hos. 10:12);
“And unto this people thou shalt say, Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I set before you the way of life, and the way of death” (Jer. 21:8); “Turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. Cast away from you all your transgressions . . . make you a new heart and a new spirit . . . For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye” (Eze. 18:30-32); “Return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good” (Jer. 18:11);
“Therefore now amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the Lord your God; and the Lord will repent him of the evil that he hath pronounced against you” (Jer. 26:13);
God appealed to the natural ability of men in the New Testament:
“Save yourselves from this untoward generation” (Acts 2:40);
“God . . . commandeth all men every where to repent” (Acts 17:30); “Ye have obeyed from the heart” (Rom. 6:17);
“Let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh” (2 Cor. 7:1);
“If a man therefore purge himself” (2 Tim. 2:21);
“Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness. Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord” (Jas. 4:7-10); “Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth” (1 Pet. 1:22); “And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely” (Rev. 22:17).
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Post by thesamson on Jan 30, 2009 23:17:07 GMT -5
If you say that a man is able to choose God then you must agree that somewhere in a man lies some sort of spiritual goodness that is still present within a man's spirit which has not been damaged by the fall; that is, his spirit, soul, and body has in no way been corrupted , at all. Evenmore that somwhere in a man heart lies a righteouness of his own apart from Christ. But we know from Scripture that a corrupt tree cannot not bear good fruit. My question to you is how can an unrighteous person, who is dead in sin; that is, being alienated from the life of God and all his ways, bear good fruit; mainly, a spiritual choice to chose salvation? When Not even Aaron and his sons could aproach God without being threatened with a possible death because of their inherited sinful nature. For example, they had to obey every rule and command that God instated before for coming near him if they wanted to live. A good example of sinner not being able to commune with God with out being consecrated was when Arons sons offered unauthorized fire before the LORD, contrary to his command. They were immeadietly engulfed in flames and consumed before their fathers eyes. If that is how strict God is about apraoaching Him , what makes you think that any person can apraoch Him, without being clean first. Not even Aaron was holy enough to enter the holy of holies. He did it with an immense amount of percaution, obeying everything God said to the T, so he would not be struck dead on the spot. All in all, although we see the result of us choosing, it is God who works in us first to enable a us to choose him, that is called regeneration. He must consecrate us first before approaching him. That where election comes in. Tulip is great formula for understanding God's grace. However, if you try pulling one apart you will have challenge all of them because they all work togethar.
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Post by fs on Jan 31, 2009 11:48:12 GMT -5
So much for Calvin and Calvinism!
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jan 31, 2009 13:42:45 GMT -5
The deliberate disobedience (fall) of Adam resulted in the physical corruption of all His descendants, because mankind was removed from the Garden where the tree of life was.
The deliberate disobedience (fall) of each individual results in separation from God and a worthiness of eternal death in hell.
But despite both the fall of Adam and the fall of each individual, mankind still has the ability to obey or disobey God. Cain had this ability. Cain was born after the fall of Adam, yet God still told him he had no reason to be downcast and that he must rule over sin.
To "fall" is to sin. Sin is a choice made by free will. How could the fall of Adam, or the fall of anyone, result in the lose of free will? Without free will, a person couldn't fall at all, since sin is a choice of free will.
God gave us free will and ONLY God can take it away. Why would God take away something that He wanted us to have? If God took away our free will, so that we are not capable of obeyig Him, then logically God must want us to disobey Him! If God takes away free will, God must not want people to obey Him! God is the friend of sin! God is the cause of sin!
Just because we have a free will (the ability to obey God) does not mean that we have righteousness apart from Christ.
Righteousness is obedience to the law of God. Obedience is a positive choice of free will. Sinners, apart from Christ, never choose to obey God. Therefore sinners, even though they have a free will, have no righteousness at all apart from Christ.
Yes an evil heart (man's will) cannot produce good conduct. Good trees (heart) give birth to good conduct (fruit).
Those who choose to be sinful cannot produce good works. Those who choose to be holy cannot produce evil works. This is because your works are determined by your choices.
If you choose to be evil, you are not going to do good. If you choose to be holy, you are not going to do evil.
Good trees CANNOT produce bad fruit. Bad trees CANNOT produce good fruit.
Sin is to be carnally minded, to mind the things of the flesh. Repentance is a change of mind. A change of mind (repentance) results in a change of life (fruit of repentance).
Sinners can only bring forth the fruit of repentance if they first repent. And sinners only repent under the influence of the Holy Spirit, convicting their consciences.
Also, the Prodigal Son is a perfect example of how someone could be "dead" (separated from God) and yet still have the ability to return to the Father (come back to God). Dead does not mean unable, dead means separated. Sinners are dead in sins because they have chosen to sin and consequently are separated from God. Therefore is sinners choose to repent (change their mind about sinning) they can be reconciled back to God and have a relationship with Him.
The Jews never believed in original sin or a sinful nature.
Those concepts were invented by the Gnostic's and brought into Christianity by Augustine.
Why would God command them to obey, if they inherited a nature that was incapable of obeying? Is God a cruel tyrant?
If they were not able to obey God, God is a monster of punishing them! They were victims of their birth. Their disobedience was not their free will choice, it was a necessity of their nature, they couldn't help it, it was not their fault! God was cruel and unjust for commanding them to perform the impossible, only to punish them for their failure!
I don't. Calvinists do. Calvinists say that we sin every day in word, thought, and deed, yet we are still saved and still have a relationship with God.
Nobody can have a relationship with God if they have sin in their life. Sin separates from God.
One single sin will keep anyone out of Heaven. God will not let sinners into Heaven. Only those who keep God's commandments will enter through the gates and eat from the tree of life.
A person must entirely stop sinning if they expect to be in Heaven with God.
A person cannot have a relationship with God until they stop sinning, until they cease their rebellion and disobedience. You cannot have a good relationship with God and be in rebellion against God at the same time. You cannot be an enemy and be reconciled at the same time! You cannot be saved and sin at the same time!
How could Aaron obey God to the T, if it is impossible to obey God because of the way we are born?
Why does God punish disobedience if disobedience is unavoidable? That is like punishing someone for being born black.
Regeneration is a moral change. Morality relates to man's will. Therefore regeneration is when God changes man's will.
For man's will to change, it must be a voluntary change, or else it is not really a change of will. Therefore God does not force regeneration upon someone, God influences it. Since it is a moral change, God uses means consistent with man's free moral agency. God changes a man's will by presenting truth to His mind. This is called the conviction of the Holy Spirit.
Regeneration is not when God makes the incapable capable. Regeneration is when God makes the unwilling willing.
Sinners are naturally capable of obeying God, because they have free will. But sinners don't want to obey God. Their problem is unwillingness not inability. Therefore God influences them to turn from their disobedience (unwillingness) to obedience (willingness) by presenting the truth of the law and the Gospel to their minds by the Holy Spirit.
Conversion and regeneration are precisely the same event, when God brings men to repentance and faith through the influence of the Holy Spirit.
In regeneration, both God and man are active. God is active in influencing man. Man is active in obeying the influence of God.
Nothing short of total abandonment of all sin and completely surrender to God can be considered biblical regeneration.
Grace?
Total depravity says God punishes with everlasting fire men for failure to perform the impossible!
Unconditional Election says that God eternally predestines some for Heaven, not because of anything they had done, and God eternally predestined others for hell, not because of anything they had done!
Limited Atonement says that Jesus could have died for everyone, but He didn't want to!
Irresistible Grace says that God is a spiritual rapist, forcing Himself upon people, making them have a relationship with Him!
These are anything but doctrines of "grace".
Right. All of Calvinism is wrong.
Total inability is false. Free will is true.
Unconditional election is false. Conditional forgiveness is true.
Limited Atonement is false. Unlimited Atonement is true.
Irresistible grace is false. Resistible grace is true.
Perseverance of the Saints is false. Conditional Security and losing your salvation is true.
I would also add:
Justification by imputed righteousness of Christ is false. Pardon through Jesus Christ is true.
Jesus paying our debt, taking our punishment, or suffering the penalty of the law is false. Jesus providing a substitute for the penalty of the law, which God will accept in the place of our penalty, so that our penalty can be withheld (pardon), is true.
Eternal exhaustive Foreknowledge or Foreordaination is false. A partly uncertain and undetermined future is true.
Sovereignty in the sense that God's will is always done is false. Sovereignty in the sense that God makes laws and enforces punishments is true.
Being born sinful is false. Being born innocent is true.
Sinfulness until glorification is false. Sanctification in this life is true.
On and on the doctrines go. It seems that Calvinists are wrong on almost every doctrine they touch.
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Post by thesamson on Jan 31, 2009 15:18:06 GMT -5
Conditional Security and losing your salvation is true. (Jesse)
Thats scary...
Jesus paying our debt, taking our punishment, or suffering the penalty of the law is false. (Jesse)
This is scary... This sounds like a cult.
Jesse, your last remarks make you sound like a little kid that is throwing a temper tamptrum... lets be adults and not go that route, thank you.
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Post by dmatic on Feb 1, 2009 15:11:26 GMT -5
Jesse, I haven't read the rest of these posts since my last, but, you wrote: "The Bible teaches that God wants all men to be saved, yet not all men will be saved."
Actually, I think your premise is wrong, and therefore so is your conclusion. I believe that the Bible teaches that yes, it is God's will that all be saved.....and the Bible is clear, that ALL of God's will will be done!
Praise God!
Peace, dmatic
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Feb 1, 2009 15:32:41 GMT -5
Sin has occurred. Is sin the will of God? If not, then you cannot say that will of God is always done. Sin, by definition, is rebellion against God's will.
If God's will is not always done, you cannot conclude that all men will repent and be saved just because it is God's will that all men repent and be saved. Man's free will is involved in repentance and salvation and therefore the will of God alone is no certainty that all men will repent and be saved.
God will is that sin should never occur. Yet sin has occurred. God's will is not done.
God's will is that all men should repent and be saved. Not all men repent and are saved. God's will is not always done.
This is the way I see it:
Plan A: Sin should never occur. Plan B: Those who have sinned should repent and be saved. Plan C. Those who do not repent and be saved go to hell.
You could say that the will of God will ultimately be done, because Plan C will occur. But you could also say that God's will is not done, because Plan A or Plan B is not done.
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Post by thesamson on Feb 1, 2009 21:14:26 GMT -5
It is God's desire that all men be saved; however, God's decrees is that only his elect will attain salvation.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Feb 1, 2009 23:30:31 GMT -5
I have never read in the Bible a distinction between desire and decree.
The Bible never says that God has decreed automatic salvation to a limited few.
Where do you get your theology? It is obviously not from the Bible.
You must get your theology from men like Calvin, Spurgeon, Piper, and Washer.
If you just stick with the Bible, you would believe that God wants everyone to be saved, that Jesus died for everyone, but that not everyone will be saved because salvation depends upon the free will of man.
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Post by thesamson on Feb 1, 2009 23:57:04 GMT -5
But you and I agree. Some will be saved some will not be saved. Thats what I believe. The ones that make it to heaven are God's elect. Look, do you really think that because I belive in the Doctrone of election it makes my Christian walk any easier? Yes it does, and no it doesnt. I still have to strive for the goal and keep myself from being corrupted from this world and prove that I really turned from my sins by the good things I do; that is, love. Election keeps me from stumbling. It cause me to strive harder, and keeps me from sliping into the hands of the devil.
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Post by thesamson on Feb 2, 2009 0:00:14 GMT -5
The people that you have listed are not your enemies, nor were they decivers; on the contrary, they were and are Godly men. They preach everyting you preach: trinity, the atonement, Christ as Deity, repentance, preservering ect. The only thing that makes them different from you is that they are reformed.
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Post by dmatic on Feb 2, 2009 16:22:36 GMT -5
Jesse, you are a good thinker. However, you wrote:
I seem to have read a scripture that says the exact opposite of your conclusion.....
I think it says that the born again experience is not based, nor does it depend on the will of God, but I could be mistaken. I will print this thread and contemplate it this evening, Lord willing, and will try to answer you tomorrow, Lord willing!
Peace, dmatic
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Post by dmatic on Feb 3, 2009 12:36:15 GMT -5
Hi Jesse, I have appreciated the zeal with which you have addressed this topic....and I realize that you feel comfortable with the conclusions you've reached regarding reality. And you argue them reasonably, and even convincingly, if your premises are found to be true.
However, in your post of Jan 30th you say that God's will is not always done and then you proceed to find many scriputres that you believe prove your point. (The whole post is filled with good scriptures)
First, we need to discern the difference between God's Will and God's Plan.
It IS God's will that we all love Him with all our hearts, minds, souls and strength! This is also His Plan!
So, as you rightly point out, We SHALL love the LORD our God with all....
Now, you see this as obviously not yet happening, because you rightly see that not all of us are so doing! And, you rightly point out that Jesus taught us to pray "Thy will be done. Thy Kingdom come", which obviously means that God's will and Kingdom are not yet here!
But, God calls things as though they are not yet, as though they were already. (Romans 4:17) The reality is that when God says: for example: Thou shalt.... He IS giving us instruction, AND He is Prophesying of its fulfillment! Thus, His word does not return to Him void without performing that for whcih He intended.
Thus all of the commandments of God will some day be being kept by us all! Presently, we do not yet see this....with our eyes....but without doubt, it can be said that we do not yet see as we ought!
Anyway, it may help to approach this seeming discrepancy, between what we see....and what will be....by showing an example from scripture.
We know that God desired/willed for Joseph to go to Egypt to "save much people alive"! But, how would He accomplish this? How would He get Jacob?Israel's most beloved son away from him (which also fulfills another period of "Jacob's trouble" by the way). He used the "sin" of his brothers! Let's not get into, right now, whether or not, God "caused" this sin in them....but let's just focus on God using it to accomplish His purpose, which, was a "GOOD" one.
Joseph's brothers were jealous, bascially, of their younger brother Joseph. A "sin". Correct? Certainly, they were not loving Joseph as themselves. When the opportunity came, the brothers hatched the scheme to get rid of the little pest! Rueben, I think, talked the others out of killing him, but rather just "selling" him to the slave-traders (Ishmaelites, who were also Abram's seed, and therefore, related to the "Israelites"). So, maybe Rueben wasn't "sinning" as much as his younger brothers....who knows?
Well, you know the story and the conclusion that Joseph taught. Even though they intended and meant what they did for evil, God meant the same things for GOOD! How can this be? So, we see their sin, actually being used by God to bring about good, and ultimately glorify God!
With all of our "philosophies" we must deal with the problem of evil. From where did it come? God answers it by claiming creatorship of evil and well as being the Creator of good. There is no other source!
So, we conclude that God uses evil for His purposes! Ultimately, His purposes for His creation is for good, and for His pleasure. And for His glory, if you will. And for our good!
So, we see that God has a plan. No one can resist His plan! Because He is ALMIGHTY! He is Sovereign too! He alone is!
One of the problems with the system you've developed is that you make God subservient to man's will! This is a very big problem!
Presumably, in your scenario, you have God sitting on the sidelines of His creation....trying to save as many as He can, but invloved in a hopeless struggle against the all-powerful will of man. You must make God into a god! According to your imagination! You imagine that He is rather helpless in accomplishing His will to save everyone! You even say that "salvation depends on the will of man"!
The verse I was referring to earlier was John 1:12-13 "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who belive in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God!" (Taken from the New King James version here at the library)
Now, you may say He has given us the "Power" to receive Him or to reject Him(free will), but what do you do with verse 13?
I am not doing this subject justice because it is very "complex", and I am a simple man, but it may help to further this discussion. At least I hope it does.
I am done with the fights between Arminianism/Calvinism because they were both incomplete, yet both made good points to consider. It always left room for more discovery. There is something that both sides are not getting! There is so much for us to learn yet.
Will worship lacks a true understanding of God's Sovereignty. Calvinism makes God into an evil tyrant!
I realize that I have not addressed your whole post. I'm sorry. I don't always have the time to do so, but I'd like to continue this discussion if you have a mind to.
Thanks, and respectfully I really do like very many things you teach!
Peace, dmatic
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Post by thesamson on Feb 3, 2009 15:15:14 GMT -5
Calvinsm does not make God an evil Tyrant, it makes him the center of the universe. It makes him in control. Lastly, there is a difference between hyper calvinsm and calvinism.
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Post by dmatic on Feb 4, 2009 16:27:14 GMT -5
thesamson, I am interested in Jesse's response, because his system takes away the powers of the Sovereign God, Who is Almighty and Omniscient, and makes Him powerless over the so-called "free" will of man.
But, I am interested in your comments as well because you do make God to be like Calvin imagined. An evil tyrant who knows that people can't keep His laws but He torments many of them in hell forever! Calvinists say that all people of God's creation are deserving of eternal punishment in hell forever and ever....but because God is so good, He chooses only a few to save, which means that He also chooses to torment most of His creation in eternal hellfire for doing what He created them to do. It is precdisely because of Clavin's warped view of God that he could turn out to be so mean! We often create a god of our own imagination so he can be just like us!
Peace, dmatic
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Post by dmatic on Feb 11, 2009 15:50:30 GMT -5
Jesse, I am interested in your response, and relaize that you are very busy, but if you can and will, I would appreciate it.
You say that God's will is not always done, and I agree... That is why we still pray....Thy will be done!
However, I am of the opinion that God's plan is being done! His plan involves the accomplishing of His will. No one can resist His plan! They can, and do, however, seem to resist His will.
Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.
Peace, dmatic
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Post by dmatic on Feb 16, 2009 15:08:00 GMT -5
Jesse, Are you still too busy?
Peace, dmatic
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Post by pete777 on Feb 26, 2009 22:15:00 GMT -5
Jesse, Man has no natural ability other than the will to choose! The only thing that man has is a will, and that is defined as the power to make a decision which power he will allow in his life. The power of sin (Eph2:2) or the power of righteousness (John 1:12). We are free to choose which we will serve! The service of self is in fact the service to the power of Satan! Faith is the substance that must be obtained by man in order to have grace (Eph 2:8). So what is faith? Faith is the Holy Spirit’s offer to the will of man to choose to do righteousness in His holy and creative power. When the will is yielded to the power of the Holy Spirit, then the power comes in and the result is grace in the life. Jesus stands at the door Rev 3:8 and wants us to yield our will to the Spirit’s mild, patient, and righteous rule for our lives. The door is our mental acceptance of His control and guidance, and the door is faith. Faith is allowing the Holy Spirit into the life! Grace is the outcome of the Holy Spirit’s work! The open door is the offer for Jesus (Holy Spirit) to take control and work righteousness in us with our consent. The only natural ability we have is the measure of faith (Rom 12:3) that is given every person that has been created, and that faith is the Holy Spirit’s offer to take full control for full salvation. However, many grieve away the Holy Spirit’s continued offers by choosing their own will over and above His will for us! The end result is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, and He just goes away, never to return and with Him goes the close of probation and the hope of eternal life that was not appreciated. We are to choose to serve our conscience as made alive from storing the mind with scripture, so that the Holy Spirit can bring it back to us when we need it and thereby have an enlightened conscience that is according to the standard of the Word of God. Blessings,
Matthew
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Post by dmatic on Feb 27, 2009 15:09:10 GMT -5
matthew, what do you mean by "natural ability"?
Thanks, dmatic
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