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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jan 17, 2009 19:18:35 GMT -5
What say you?
How you answer this question, in my mind, determines whether you are a Calvinist or an Open Theist.
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Post by bullhornbob on Jan 18, 2009 1:23:35 GMT -5
Are those the only two options?
I always have considered myself a Christian, Jesse.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jan 18, 2009 11:24:11 GMT -5
To be specific, there are three options, but two of those three are identical in my mind:
- God did not know for sure that His creation would rebel, creating them because of the possibility that they would be sinless (open theism)
- God foreknew that His creation would sin and created it anyways (Arminianism).
- God foreordained that His creation would sin (Calvinism).
The last two are identical in my mind, because if God foreknew that the world would sin, and created it anyways, then logically God created the world to sin. God creating the world to sin and God ordaining that the world would sin, are identical. In both Calvinism and Arminianism, God created the world to be sinful. Only in open theism did God create the world to be sinless.
If God ordained that an individual would sin and go to hell, or if God foreknew that they would sin and go to hell but created them anyways, then these are identical because God created an individual to sin and go to hell.
This is my argument:
The only way that God could have created the universe to be sinless is if that was a genuine possibility (open theism). If God ordained the sin of the universe, or if God foreknew the sin of the universe, then God could not have created the universe to be sinless.
You have to be an open theist if you believe God created the universe to be sinless. But if the sin of the universe was ordained or foreknown, God created the universe to be sinful.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jan 18, 2009 14:25:48 GMT -5
This is really a question of God's intention. Was it God's intention, in creation, to have a sinful universe or a sinless universe?
If God foreknew the universe would be sinful if He created it, His intention for created it could not have been for it to be sinless but sinful.
If God ordained that the universe would be sinful, His intention for creating it could not have been for it to be sinless but sinful.
If God created the universe with the intention of it being sinless, He must not have foreknown or foreordained that it would be sinful.
I cannot see how Calvinism and Arminianism can avoid the charge that God created the universe to be sinful. Only in Open Theism can I see how God's intention in creation could be a sinless universe.
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Post by bullhornbob on Jan 19, 2009 1:47:27 GMT -5
Understood.
I was actually referring to "calvinist or open theist" in your post, not the two choices in the poll. I had a feeling I should have clarified my reply. But you did answer the question.
I do not claim to be an open theist, although I guess one would think I was if we talked theology for any period of time.
I am a Christian. I believe the Bible. I hate religious labels. Nothing personal, but I just hate the labels.
I John 3 identifies two types of people:
1 - Children of God 2 - Children of the devil
God's Kingdom will not be sectioned off into areas for one theological position or another.
One Kingdom - One God and Father - One Lord Jesus Christ- One Spirit - One Body
I very much appreciate your desire to teach sound biblical doctrine. You have done a terrific job thus far! Keep up the good work!
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Post by pete777 on Jan 19, 2009 3:39:01 GMT -5
Jesse,
Your options are weighed with weighted conclusions!
God did know that if He created free moral agents, that they would at soem point in time sin! This does not make Him responsible for the sin! That would mean that sin can stop God from creating! God is perfect, and He allowed the event to happen anyway, but the solution to sin is an eternal fix. The love that streams from the cross of Calvary will be so paramount in the minds of His creation that "affliction" will not rise up again!
The foreknowledge of the entrance of sin does not make Him responsible! You are weighted on the wrong conclusion! God knew and He had a plan to meet the emergency! As soon as man sinned in Eden, the New Covenant promise was given (Gen 3:15) which provided a Redeemer to die for us, and the covenant was ratified 4,000 years later. Animal sacrifices (Old Covenant)stood in (as a symbol of faith) to fill in the gap until Christ could back up His promise in Eden!
God knew and He did something about it! He had a plan for the creation that He loved! How does that make Him responsible for sin? How can you draw your conclusion that He designed sinfulness to be a part of His plan?
Lucifer chose to rebel against God! God did not force him to make such a foolish decision! God is not responsible for the decision of the fool, for He is eternal wisdom! Free moral agents have the choice to make. The redeemed will never again choose to rebel, as their characters are being weighted in the balances of the heavenly tribunal (record books) NOW! God is looking at our characters now to see if we are going to choose to sin in the future, He gives us trials and afflictions now for us to prove our loyalty now! Just look at the three Hebrew boys in Daniel chapter 3. That is the character all must have to be saved eternally! That is why it is in the WORD or testimony for us now, so we can seek God's grace to have characters like theirs.
God ordained a sinless creation, He had a 6,000 year plan for the sin problem that would occur, and the plan is eternally perfect...no more sin...eternal sinlessness!
Bible prophecy proves that God knows all! He knows every detail of the future and tells us some of it (Deut 29:29, Amos 3:7). To assume that God ordained sin or that He does not know the future is problematic and ignores the plain utterances of prophetic truth.
Blessing,
Matthew
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jan 19, 2009 13:56:29 GMT -5
Matthew,
If God knows that Mr. Smith will sin and go to hell if He creates Him, and God chooses to create Him anyways, doesn't that mean that God created Mr. Smith to sin and go to hell?
God's plan and intention for Mr. Smith must have been for him to sin and go to hell, since He created him with full knowledge that his sin and condemnation was certain.
(In all logical reality, if God foreknew that He would create Mr. Smith, God could not have chosen not to create Him, or else His foreknowledge would have been wrong.)
But suppose God had a choice to create or not to create the person that He foreknew would sin and go to hell, if He choose to create Him knowing He would sin and go to hell, then God created that person so that that person would sin and go to hell.
You cannot say that God created that person to be obedient to Him or to go to Heaven, since God created him with the foreknowledge that he would sin and go to hell. His sin and condemnation was certain before he was created.
Regarding prophecies, absolute prophecies proves that the future is partly determined already, and conditional or contingent prophecies prove that the future is also partly undetermined or open. God gives some prophecies in an absolute sense, because He has already determined the event. God gives other prophecies in the maybe sense, because the event is contingent.
Absolute Prophecies (events God has absolutely determined to bring to pass):
"I the Lord have spoken it, and I will do it." Ezekiel 36:36
"Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times, the things that are not yet done, saying my counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure." Isaiah 46:10
Contingent Prophecies (events that God may or may not bring to pass, depending on man's contingent character):
"At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; if that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them." Jeremiah 18:7-8
"Again, when I say unto the wicked, thou shalt surely die, if he turn from his sin... he shall surely live, he shall not die." Ezekiel 33:14-15
The future is partly determined (because of God's will) and the future is partly uncertain (because of man's free will).
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Post by pete777 on Jan 19, 2009 14:55:32 GMT -5
Jesse,
I love your article on "the relation of the nature and the will." It is exactly what I believe, because the Holy Spirit guided you to those conclusions and I have been led in the exact same thought in relation to the will and human nature. I printed that article and it is in my file for what I believe in relation to Bible doctrine on that issue.
Please Jesse, answer me this one question, in light of your article; How is God responsible for our choices? How in the world could God give us "FREE WILL" and then be responsible for our wrong choices?
That does not make sence to me! I need to see how you connect the two, in order to have consistency of thought and non-opposing doctrines (John 10:35).
God created man sinless and gave him the necessary tools (info) to make informed decisions in relation to trusting Him and to not be deceived! The fact that man CHOSE to yield his will to Satan is in no way reflected on the eternal perfection of God. God did all He could for man to follow the right!
The test in the Garden of Eden was so simple that it is a mole hill compared to the mountains we NOW have to face in relation to temptation. But even now where sin did abound (mountain) grace (mountain destroyer) has much more abounded, so that we can yield our will to the still small voice in our consciences, which Romans 9:1 says is the voice of the Holy Spirit (voice of God) which speaks His will (law) for us moment by moment as we yield to the soft and gentle influence. If we follow our Holy Spirit empowered consciences which give us the knowledge between right and wrong then we can overcome all temptations in the flesh, as we walk by and are led by the Holy Spirit, as He speaks His will to our consciences (mind and heart), the decision making capacity of man.
Adam and Eve had the same gift, not through redemption, but in the original through creation. We receive the gift of an enlightened conscience through redemption! We are now able to know right from wrong and make appropriate decisions that reflect who we CHOOSE to obey! If we chronically CHOOSE to yield to the carnal side, which our consciences tell us is wrong, then we are CHOOSING to worship Satan and be slaves of sin and lust! But if we CHOOSE to yield to our conscience based on the knowledge of the word, then we yield to righteousness and through repeated resistance to Satan, have formed habits (character patterns) that reflect the divine nature! (2 Pet 1:4).
God has supplied man the tools of redemption and if man chooses to follow his carnal desire, then God respects this choice! God has done everything He can to make the playing field fair for man to render a unbiased decision where he will spend eternity, in heaven or as fertilizer in the New Earth. It is up to us to decide.
Now my point being, that God is in no way responsible for our choices! The fact that He had foreknowledge of sin, does not make Him culpable in any way, shape or form! We are the masters of our destiny, based on the informed decisions we make in relation to God's offer of mercy (mercy= the gift to choose to yield to an enlightened conscience). Romans 12:3 states to every man is given a measure of faith. 2 Cor 4:13 states that faith is the "Spirit of faith" and that is what speaks to our conscience. Every man therefore has some knowledge of right and wrong and has the ability to CHOOSE to yield to the way out of sin (by faith). Ephesians 2:8 states that through faith we get grace, and grace is the gift of spiritual power to regenerate the fallen nature in man, so that by repeated choices to yield to righteousness he can develop a holy character. Every man has been given the gift, but every man does not choose to act upon it with his FREE MORAL CAPACITY given to him.
My point is that the foreknowledge of sin on God's part does not matter in the least and should not effect His decision making in relation to the "speed bump" (sin) that occured in His eternally divine plan to create mankind. Our decisions do not place the responsibility for sin on God, but on each individual.
Blessings,
Matthew
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jan 19, 2009 15:09:00 GMT -5
Men are responsible for their choices because men originate their choices out of their own free will. Free will means that their moral choices and moral character are contingent, that they "may or may not" sin or obey. When God gave us free will, God knew that we "may or may not" sin against Him.
God is not in any way responsible for the free moral choices His creation makes, because God did not know which moral choices they were going to make when He created them. He knew that we "may or may not" sin, but He didn't know for sure that we would sin.
When I bring a child into this world, I am not responsible for it's choices, because I do not know what choices it will make. If I knew my child would grow up to be a Hitler, and I create him anyways, then I am partly to blame.
If God knew His universe would certainly rebel, and He created these moral beings anyways, then God is partly to blame for the existence of sin. But that was not the point I was trying to make.
The point I was trying to make is this, if God creates individuals that He foreknows with certainty will sin and go to hell, then God's intention in creating them must be for them to sin and go to hell. How could God create them with the purpose of loving Him and going to Heaven, if He foreknows before He creates them that they will sin and go to hell?? God's plan for them must be to sin and go to hell, if He creates them foreknowing that they will sin and go to hell.
It is like this. Suppose I need to buy a car. I want a car that is good and reliable. I go to the dealership, I find a car, but I know with certainty that the car will break down all the time, and that I will have to get a different car if I want a reliable one. Can I purchase that car, with the intention of it being reliable, if I already know with certainty that it will be unreliable? No.
Likewise God cannot create a moral being, with the intention of having him love Him and go to Heaven, if He already foreknows with certainty that that moral being will sin and go to hell. God's purpose in creating a being, that He foreknows will sin and go to hell, cannot be for that person to obey and go to Heaven.
If God created the universe in the beginning, foreknowing that it would be sinful, then God's purpose in creating the universe could not have been for it to be sinless.
If God created the universe in the beginning, foreknowing that it would be sinful, then God's purpose in creating that universe was for it to be sinful.
You could say that God's plan, "in the long run" was for it to be sinless. But you must admit than that God's plan, for the rest of the time, was for it to be sinful.
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Post by pete777 on Jan 19, 2009 15:28:46 GMT -5
Jesse,
Did you actually read my last post?
Jesse, if God is in anyway responsible for sin, then He needs to burn in hell! He is in no way responsible for sin even to the fainest shade on the matter!
God gave us the ability to CHOOSE! We are able to make right decisions due to the gift of FAITH and GRACE. Not all people CHOOSE to yield their "WILL" to the side of right-doing! They willfully CHOOSE to follow sin and filth!
Once again, if they are "FREE MORAL AGENTS" then how is God responsible??? He is not!
If I have a kid come into the world, it is up to the parent whether or not his or her son will be like Hitler! Let me explain!
Proverbs 22:6
Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it. KJV
If the parent does not train the children in the ways of the LORD, then the child will be taught by evil spirits to continually yield to their own (satanic) inclinations, and will be like Hitler in their character. But if the parent disciplines them and puts them under the school-master (law) and gets them straight, then they will be taught to yield their will to right-doing.
If I buy a car and change the oil and do all the maintaince, the car will run good, unless the car has a manufacturing defect, but where sin abounds God's grace much more abounds so that the defect can be overcome as long as the other maintaince issues are maintained. Parents will be responsible for not training their children right and they will see their responsibility and the neglect therefof on judgment day!
We all have duties and responsibilities to our fellow man and if we neglect to do those things their are consequences and God is not responsible, rather mankind is!
Romans 6:13-14
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. KJV
If God tells us not to yield to sin, then we should obey Him! But if we continue to do it anyway then who is responsible?
It boils down to informed consent! What information (light) does a person have and and is he or she yielding to it? If yes, then right-doing is the result; if no, then wrong-doing is the result, and God is not responsible in the least for the choice!
Blessings,
Matthew
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Post by pete777 on Jan 19, 2009 21:26:20 GMT -5
Brethren, The origin of sin is a factor that cannot and should not inhibit the Creator God from His plans. There are risks to creating “free moral agents.” One of those risks is rebellion against that which God has provided to ensure eternal peace and harmony. What is it that God has provided to ensure peace and harmony but can be rejected by His creation?
The legalists say it is the Law of God! The gospel minded say it is grace! The spiritual minded say it is the Holy Spirit! The carnal minded say it is reason!
But what does the Bible say? Just what does God’s word spell out for us on this point? Where is to be found the line of eternal truth that is weaved throughout the blessed Word of God?
This study is an attempt to answer several questions about sin and its origin and the responsibility of the parties concerned with the issue.
If God created a perfect universe and populated it with perfect beings, and these beings one day chose to sin against the perfect order of things, where does the guilt belong? With God who created and who is all wise and all knowing and saw that His creation would choose to disrupt the perfection of His creation? Or since the fact that sin is a free moral choice and God is in no way responsible for the choices of His “FREE MORAL AGENTS” then sin and it consequences are the responsibility of the being that chose to sin? Should the fact that God saw into the future and knew that His creation would mess things up by bad choices; should that stop Him from creating them in the first place? Should God’s foreknowledge of sin stop Him from bringing forth such a perfect act of His love? Should the fear of sin stop the creative genius of God? Or should God have just gone ahead with His love-act of creation and allowed the sinners to reap what they sow? Does the plan of redemption actually show an even greater depth and breadth and height to the love-act of creation? If so then the foreknowledge of God relating to the occurrence of sin in the future of His creation is an unfortunate outcome, but ultimately results in an even greater display of the character of God’s love toward His creation (man)!
If we reason that God knew about sin, and therefore He is in some way responsible then we are saying that God is the ultimate sinner and sin is wicked, then what we are saying is that God is not love but wickedness! But this we are using the logic of man that is not enlightened to the fullness of the gospel truths.
Proverbs 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man , but the end thereof are the ways of death. KJV
Isaiah 5:20-21 20 Woe unto them that call evil good , and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
21 Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight! KJV
Let us look at the plan of redemption and see if there is any fault with God, or if God is in any way responsible for sin, even though He knew it would spring it ugly head.
Adam and Eve in the beginning had no bent or tendency for sin! They were perfect and had the fullness of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and were in perfect harmony with the original creation plan of God. The Holy Spirit was in the temple of man, it was in the heart, mind, and motives of mankind in Edenic perfection.
The plan for redemption of man is to restore man to be a temple for the Holy Spirit to take up residency once again and return the heart, mind and motives of man to be under holy influences once again. Please note that since man was perfect and chose to sin than OSAS is foolishness from the very root of the idea! How did man ever sin if OSAS? How did Lucifer ever sin if OSAS? The doctrine is not even worthy of consideration for intelligent beings! This passage from Ephesians should serve to illustrate the point that God is rebuilding man to be filled with the complete gift of the Holy Spirit as in His original plan of creation, however, the rebuilding is called redemption, regeneration, born again, conversion, and several other names that define the starting point for His rebuilding process.
Ephesians 2:20-22 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. KJV
It is clear from the above passage that man is to be the temple or the habitation of the Holy Spirit, and this is the final and complete goal of redemption. The Holy Spirit works on our consciences in order for us to know what is right and wrong, what is pleasing and not pleasing to God, what law is and what lawlessness is.
Romans 9:1 9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, KJV
When we recognize His presence and start yielding our wills to His suggestions and find joy and peace in so doing we are forming a character after the divine pattern! We are in fact being trained to be dwelling places for the Holy Spirit, and the more we submit to this training (schoolmaster) the more of the glory and presence of God will be in our life. When we realize that the Holy Spirit bears witness to our conscience and we submit to the voice of His witness, then we are in fact servants of a new master and the old man and master are dead and buried. We are to walk in newness of life with a new set of thought patterns and new voice in our mind!
The voice of self and Satan are now in the background and can never come to the forefront unless we CHOOSE to allow the thoughts and voice of self to be heard and to overpower the gentle and soft “still small voice” of God in our consciences (1 King 19:12). We are the ones that decide to allow the God of the universe to have full control over our decisions, as He knows what is best for us! If we surrender our ideas to His power and authority then we are in fact allowing Him to be our master, God, savior, and redeemer! However, if we allow the old man to have sway or control at times then we are not fully yielding our soul temples to the complete glory of God by the power and presence of the Holy Spirit. Our temples are still in contest as to who will have the pre-eminence; Christ (through the Holy Spirit) and righteousness or Satan (through demons) and sin/transgression.
Romans 6:12-14 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. KJV
How we yield to our consciences is what determines whether or not we are converted! If we chose to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit at all times then we are converted to the decisions that God would have us to make and are doing His will from the heart/mind. But if we are still struggling to render full and complete obedience to the conscience, and are still inclined to follow after our own ways without seeking for God and His witness on our mind and heart (conscience) then we are as little babes or children still being potty trained and fed from the bottle, but when we are able to render our will to that which the Holy Spirit is inspiring or impressing us to do in a certain situation then we are as sons and daughters and able to handle the meat of His word and will for us! And are thus converted fully! The Holy Spirit can thus endow us with gifts to be used in the service of God to help pull others out of the “self-will” sin and death routine that they are fixed in through continually violating their consciences.
Romans 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; KJV
The hard heart is a heart that refuses to yield to his conscience, and is thereby departing from the will of God for them, which is sin. Since sin is the breaking of the law of God, then not rendering obedience to our consciences is lawlessness, and a refusal to be sanctified from self-willed, carnal, wickedness. It is a sin to violate our consciences! It is a sin to follow after our own thoughts and wisdom apart from God! The problem is that most Christians do not know they are even supposed to follow their consciences, they just think they are saved and can rest in this mental assurance without having to render obedience to the will of God for them as made manifest to their mind and heart (conscience). They just violate their conscience and tell themselves that it is no big deal that Jesus Christ died for them and that they will be saved, and that if they follow their conscience they are making life hard and becoming legalists! However, they are sadly deceived! Jesus Christ died to give us the opportunity to follow after the Holy Spirit’s prompting or convicting of our Spirit (conscience). The Holy Spirit working on our mind and heart is the gift of redemption and when we violate our conscience we are treasuring up the wrath of God unless we submit to His control (LORDSHIP) and authority (KINGDOM). In fact look at how Jesus Christ puts it HIMSELF during the “Sermon on the Mount.”
Matthew 7:21-23 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. KJV
Why is it that people call Him LORD, LORD but they refuse to submit and surrender to His Holy Spirit as it witnesses to their conscience to communicate the will of God for them! Note that in verse 23 they are called workers of iniquity (practiced sin, over and over). They may even have been street preachers, or pastors, or evangelists but they choose to make their own decisions for their life, and not follow their consciences, which is what God wants them to do! They do not realize that their decisions independent of God is COMPLETELY WICKED! They are without guidance in the great sea of life and they think they are headed for shore but are headed for an iceberg and total destruction!
Just what is the will of God for mankind?
1 Thessalonians 4:3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: KJV
1 Thessalonians 4:7-8 7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit. KJV
Note: In verse 3 we see that sanctification is God’s will for us! We are not to fornicate literally or with evil spirit’s when they tempt us to commit sin! We are to yield our vessel (mind and body) to the will of God, and that is what we know to do as the Holy Spirit is witnessing His will for us to our consciences (Rom 9:1). But when we do not give heed or yield to the Holy Spirit we are in fact yielding to Satan and iniquity, and God does “not know us as His servants.” That is why He says He does not know the person, even though they claim His name! They are in name only, but have not learned to yield their mind and heart to the influence of the Holy Spirit! God does not know them as servants, rather Satan does! That is why Jesus says to depart, for they followed their own will and was not sanctified from self-will satanic deception, all the while they thought they were serving God, they forgot the one thing needful and that was to render obedience to their conscience, which is the voice of God and the law of God to their soul!
This is the plan of redemption for man! Adam and Eve were already pre-programmed to follow the Holy Spirit and their conscience the voice of righteousness, and had perfect habits of holiness and did not feel the pull of the fallen carnal nature, for they were completely subjugated to the divine nature from creation. However, they had “free will” and were able to make decisions in regard to their moral choices! When Satan came along and lied to Eve and she decided to disbelieve God and follow the suggestions of Satan, the Holy Spirit left her and she was now fallen and left to the carnal nature (a nature without the fullness of the influence of the Holy Spirit). She then went immediately to Adam as an agent of Satan and she was used by the devil to pull down Adam from his un-fallen state. Thus, Satan became their master and LORD, but then God stepped in with the plan of redemption (Gen 3:15), the New Covenant promise.
Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. KJV
This was the New Covenant promise that provided: 1) The death of Christ on the cross 2) The eventual death of Satan 3) Restoration of man 4) The destruction and eradication of the wicked
The gift of enmity is faith! Romans 12:3 states that to every man is given a measure of faith! Faith is the will of God communicated to man’s conscience by the power of the Holy Spirit. If man acts on the measure of faith, it will grow and he will habitually yield obedience to God and not to self and sin and Satan and the flesh and the carnal nature etc… Rather he will be born again to newness of life! The enmity is faith, and when we act upon it there is a contest between yielding the will to Christ (Holy Spirit) or self which is the devil or fallen carnal nature, which cannot please God. The gift of enmity or faith is in part and must be cultivated and enlarged so that we develop a new primary nature that follows God’s voice to our mind and heart called the conscience!
The habit of yielding to the influence of the Holy Spirit is how the character of man is formed, and how the old nature is destroyed. As we yield we are in fact cultivating faith and receiving grace (God’s power) to redeem us from self-willed carnal wickedness.
As we can see the fall of man is the result of going against the conscience and yielding the will to another source of power and influence, namely Satan’s lies and propaganda. It is thus when we are distrustful of self and trust in the still small voice of God on our consciences that we are fit for heaven and able to be safely accounted a place in heaven for eternity; eternally secure from self and sinful choices that lead to disharmony, suffering, misery, and death. No person that is still yielding the will to Satan will be saved in the end, no matter how sincere their profession is or what they have done for God in the past service for Him! It is only as they have learned to trust God and render their will to His power and influence and to obey His voice and no longer fornicate with Satan and his perverted subtle suggestions that only lead to separation from God (Isaiah 59:2, Ps 66:18). The plan of redemption is based on our choices day by day, as to whom we yield our will to!
If we habitually yield to the devil, then what is reaped is because of what was sown! If we sow to the Spirit we shall reap everlasting life, or if we sow to self we shall reap eternal death, the second death in the fires of hell. It is a daily choice, it is a moment by moment choice! What habits will you form? Who do you yield your will to? Is Christ via the Holy Spirit your LORD and Master, or is the voice of Satan’s subtle suggestions? Is your will in control? Or is God’s will for you in control? This is how the contest will be decided and every decision you have ever made will come up before God to be put in the scale of His judgment to see if you are worthy of eternal life and are safe to bring into a sinless environment for all eternity!
The record books of heaven contain your every thought and motive, will you not today fall on your knees and allow a new page to be written, a new chapter in God’s book to be penned by the watcher angels that record everything? Let that chapter be titled “yielding to righteousness.”
Daniel 7:9-10 9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened. KJV
HOW WILL YOU FARE IN THE JUDGMENT??? The books of God do not lie! Just pray and ask the Holy Spirit to take control of your life, ask Him to teach you to yield to your conscience, to make your conscience alive again from the dead! Ask Him to help you have a wonderful new chapter written in the book of life that will give God the GLORY!
Revelation 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. KJV
Blessings, Matthew
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Post by bullhornbob on Jan 19, 2009 21:39:14 GMT -5
Wouldn't the Open view say that God knew it was possible for man to sin when He created man, but it was not His will that man should sin?
Does not the Open view support various possibilities?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jan 20, 2009 9:54:50 GMT -5
Yes God knew it was possible that man would sin, because God gave man a free will. The open view says that God took a risk. There is a book on open theism called, "The God Who Risks" by John Sanders (I have never read it). Even Pete just used open theist language by saying, "There are risks to creating 'free moral agents.' One of those risks is rebellion against that which God has provided to ensure eternal peace and harmony." A person can only take a "risk" if they do not know with certainty what the outcome. Risks require uncertainty. Risks require contingency. John Piper says that God cannot take risks because God has exhaustive foreknowledge. Only in an open system of uncertainty and contingency can God take risks. Only if God did not know what mankind would do, because they had free will, could God take a risk by creating them.
I am taking a risk by bringing a child into the world. That child might grow up to be a terrible person or a righteous person. If I do all that I can to influence and train the child to do right, it is not my fault that the child becomes a terrible person (say a Hitler or Sadam). And because I didn't know what the child would certainly become when I brought the child into this world, I am not to blame for the outcome.
Likewise with God. God took a risk by making mankind. It was a possibility that mankind would not obey Him but would disobey Him and become wicked. God has done His part in influencing and teaching man to do right, so it is not His fault that we have become evil. And because God didn't know for sure if mankind would choose to be evil or good when He created them, He is not to blame for the outcome.
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Post by pete777 on Jan 20, 2009 14:32:23 GMT -5
Jesse,
Are you saying that God canot see into the future with absolute certainity?
Blessings,
Matthew
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jan 20, 2009 17:55:44 GMT -5
I am saying that the future is not entirely certain because of free will, and therefore God does not know the future as entirely certain.
The future has possibilities and contingencies because of free will, and therefore God does knows the future has possibilities and contingencies.
The future is partly determined and partly undetermined, therefore the future is partly certain and partly uncertain.
God's omniscience means that God knows the future as it is, partly open and partly settled.
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Post by pete777 on Jan 20, 2009 18:34:37 GMT -5
Jesse,
Is there anyway possible that making that assumption about God, (that He does not know the exact details of the future) that we are reading into things man's wisdom?
How could all the wonderful prophecies have come true in the smallest detail?
How, unless He can see into the future with perfect clarity and perfect detail! God can look into eternity past and eternity future, it is us that are stuck in time, not God! He is not bound by creationary laws, for He created them, as One that is seperate from them but willing to communicate to us through them. Jesus even became one with us for the purpose of redemption, but is no less God.
Just look at the wonderful prophecies in Psalms 22 and Isaiah 53... There are some very clear details.
Blessings,
Matthew
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jan 20, 2009 20:01:54 GMT -5
* God speaks of the future in terms of what may or may not be: Ex. 3:18, 4:9, 13:17; Eze. 12:3
* God changes His plans in response to changing circumstances: Ex. 32:10-14, Jer. 18:1-10
* God's willingness to change His plans is considered one of His glorious attributes: Jonah 4:2; Joel 2:12-13
* God tests people to see what types of decisions they will make: Gen. 22:12; Ex. 16:4; Deut. 8:2, 13:1-3; 2 Chron. 32:31
* God has had disappointments and has regretted how things turned out: Gen. 6:6; 1 Sam. 15:10, 15:35
* God has expected things to happen that didn't come to pass: Isa. 5:1-5; Jer. 3:6-7, 3:19-20
* God gets frustrated and grieved when he attempts to bring individuals into alignment with his will and they resist: Eze. 22:29-31; Isa. 63:10; Eph. 4:30; cf. Heb. 3:8, 3:15, 4:7; Acts 7:51
* The prayers of men have changed the plans of God: Ex. 32:10-14; Num. 11:1-2, 14:12-20, 16:16:20-35; Deut. 9:13-14, 9:18-20, 9:25; 2 Sam. 24:17-25; 1 Kin. 21:27-29; 2 Chron. 12:5-8; Jer. 26:19
* God is said to have repented (changed His mind) multiple times in the Bible: Gen. 6:6-7; Ex. 32:12-14; Num. 23:19; Deut. 32:36; Judges 2:18; 1 Sam. 15:11, 15:29, 15:35; 2 Sam. 24:16; Ps. 90:13, 106:45, 110:4, 135:14; Jer. 4:28, 15:6, 18:8, 18:10, 20:16, 26:3, 26:13, 26:19, 42:10, Eze. 24:14, Hos. 11:8, 13:14; Joel 1:13-14; Amos 7:3, 7:6; Jonah 3:9-10, 4:2; Zach. 8:14
* Prophecies are often God foretelling what He Himself will later bring to pass. So they have to do more with God's omnipotence then His omniscience: Gen. 3:15; 1 Kin. 8:15, 8:20, 8:24, 13:32 (with 2 Kin. 23:1-3, 15-18); 2 Kings 19:25; 2 Chron. 1:9 (1 Chron. 6:4; 10, 15); 2 Chron 36:21-22; Ezra 1:1; Isa. 5:19, 25:1-2, 37:26, 42:9 (with vs. 16); Jer. 29:10, 32:24, 32:28, 33:14-15, Lam. 3:37; Eze. 12:25, 17:24, 33:29, 33:33; Dan. 4:33, 4:37; Acts 3:18, 27:32-35; Rev. 17:17
* Scriptures that say God has a past, present, and a future: Rev. 1:4, 1:8, 4:8
* Scriptures that say God’s eternity is endless time, that is, time without beginning or end: Isa. 9:6-7; Isa. 43:10; Isa. 57:15; Job 36:26; Dan. 4:34; Hab. 1:12 Ps. 23:2; Ps. 90:2; Ps. 102:24; Ps. 102:27; Lk. 1:33; Heb 1:12; Rev 1:4; Rev. 1:8; Rev. 4:8; Rev. 5:14;
* Scriptures that say man's eternity is endless time: Isa. 45:17; Eph. 3:21; Rev. 14:11;
* Scriptures that say eternity is endless time for Heavenly creatures: Rev. 4:8
* Eternity is time without end (endless time instead of timelessness): Isa. 9:6-7; Isa. 43:10; Isa. 57:15; Job 36:26; Dan. 4:34; Hab. 1:12 Ps. 23:2; Ps. 90:2; Ps. 102:24; Ps. 102:27; Lk. 1:33; Heb 1:12; Rev 1:4; Rev. 1:8; Rev. 4:8; Rev. 5:14; Isa. 45:17; Eph. 3:21; Rev. 14:11
FOUR CATEGORIES OF PROPHECIES:
All prophecies fit into one of these four categories.
1. ABSOLUTE PROPHECIES
These are prophecies of events that will inevitably come to pass. This relates to the omnipotence of God to bring about events predetermined by Himself. The matter is completely settled and certain.
Two example would be:
- God will crush the head of Satan:
"And I WILL put enmity between thee and the women, and between thy seed and her seed, and it shall bruise thy head." Gen 3:15
- The end of of the world:
"Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times, the things that are not yet done, saying MY COUNSEL shall stand, and I WILL do all MY PLEASURE... I have spoken it, I WILL also bring it to pass, I have purposed it, I WILL also do it." Isaiah 46:10-11
2. CONDITIONAL PROPHECIES
These are prophecies of contingent events. They relate to the freewill of men. The matter is completely open and contingent.
Two examples of this would be:
- The repentance of Judah:
"Perhaps they will hear and turn every man from his evil way, that I may repent of the evil which I purposed to do unto them because of the evil of their doings." Jer 26:3
- Blessings and wrath contingent upon obedience and disobedience:
"At what instance I shall speak concering a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up and to pull down, and to destroy it; if that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. And at what instance I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; if it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them." Jer 18:7-10
3.EXTRAPOLATIVE PROPHECIES
These are prophecies that are predicted, based upon God's exhaustive knowledge of the past and the present. Looking at the pattern of the past and the circumstances of the present, our Infinite God is able to make accurate and detailed predictions of the future behind our own finite comprehension:
Examples of this type would be:
- The future disobedience of Israel
"For when I shall have brought them into the land which I swore unto their fathers, that flows with milk and honey; an they shall have eaten and filled themselves, and waxen fat; then will they turn unto other gods, and serve them, and provoke me, and break my covenant. And it shall come to pass, when many evils and troubles are befallen them, that this song shall testify against them as a witness; for it shall not be forgotten out of the mouth, of their seed: I KNOW THEIR IMAGINATION which they go about, EVEN NOW, before I have brought them into the land which I swore." Deut 31:20-21
- Peters denial:
Mark 8:31-34, Peters heart was revealed that he greatly feared the cross. He rebuked Jesus for talking about crucifixion and the Lord rebuked Peter for His cowardice.
Mat 26:34, Jesus knew Peter’s heart had not changed. And Jesus new all the circumstances Peter would face that night, since Jesus knew the devil was orchestrating Peter’s circumstances (Lk. 22:31), and predicted Peters denial based upon his past pattern, present character, and present/future circumstances.
4. PARALLEL OR ANALOGOUS SCRIPTURE FULFILLMENTS
These are events found in the New Testament, which correlate with events found in the Old Testament. The scriptures used had an original meaning in the Old, yet are applicable to a situation in the New.
Examples would be:
- My Son called out of Egypt:
Hos 11:1 speaking of Israel in the Old Testament.
This is also applied to Jesus in the New Testament, Mat 2:15.
- The betrayal of a trusted friend:
Psa 41:9, David speaking of his trusted friend and counselor Ahithephel.
John 13:18, this is also applied to Jesus and his trusted friend and disciple Judas.
- The replacement of Judas, Acts 1:16:
Acts 1:20, Peter applies two Scriptures to the situation of Judas.
Ps. 69:25, talks about “their habituation” being desolate, but Peter modifies it so say “his habituation”, and “let none dwell in their tents”
Ps. 109:8, David curses his enemies, who treated him wickedly.
WHAT PROPHECIES DO NOT PROVE:
- That the future has already happened
- That God already lives in the future
- That God lives outside of time
- That God has determined everything
- That all events are foreknown as certain
WHAT PROPHECIES DO REVEAL:
- That the future is partly settled by God (absolute prophecies)
- That the future is partly open and contingent (conditional prophecies)
- That the future is partly predictable to the Divine Mind (extrapolative prophecies)
- That the future is repetitive and similar to the past (parallel or analogous prophecies)
Scriptures that say God has a past, present, and a future: Rev. 1:4, 1:8, 4:8
If God foreknows all of events from all of eternity, then God cannot predetermine any events at all! All events would already be settled and certain!
If God foreknew, from all of eternity, that you would be killed tomorrow, not even God can help you! God cannot avoid the event from occurring because God's foreknowledge cannot be wrong!
With eternal exhaustive foreknowledge, God would be a helpless observer of history! But if God lives in time, and the future has possibilities, then God can be a powerful director!
Creation is activity. Activity requires succession. Time is succession. Therefore creation requires time. In which case, the creation of time is impossible, since creation could not occur unless time already existed.
If time did not exist, there could be no activity. If there could be no activity, God could not create!
Creation requires a time line in order to occur. Creation is going from A (non-existence) to B (existence). Going from A to B is succession. How can succession (time) be created, unless succession (time) already exists?
Creation also requires thoughts and decisions. Thoughts and decisions require time. Therefore God cannot create anything unless He experiences succession.
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