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Post by alyfireman on Feb 6, 2009 20:04:00 GMT -5
If we can live this life without sinning and can be perfect then why did Christ die? Why do we need a savior?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Feb 8, 2009 13:55:47 GMT -5
Christ died for us, not because we couldn't obey God, but because we didn't obey God.
If we couldn't obey God, we are cripples. Cripples do not need pardon because they do not deserve punishment. Therefore cripples do not need an atonement.
If we didn't obey God, when we were capable of doing so, then we are criminals. Criminals need pardon because they deserve punishment. Therefore criminals need an atonement.
Sinners need a Savior. A sinner is someone who voluntarily chooses to sin, though they don't have to sin. We have all chosen to sin and therefore we have all chosen to be sinners. Therefore, we all need a Savior.
"All we like sheep have gone astray, we have all turned everyone to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." Isaiah 53:6
We have all chosen to go astray, we have all chosen to turn to our own way, therefore we need the blood atonement of Jesus Christ.
Jesus needed to atone for our own personal, voluntary, avoidable, transgressions of God's law. Jesus did not need to die for any sort of imputed guilt, involuntary natures, or unavoidable sins.
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Post by alyfireman on Feb 8, 2009 16:53:14 GMT -5
But aren't you saying that we can keep ourselves from sinning? By your reasoning I could tell my children to follow the law of God and not ever chose to sin. If this is true than they would not a savior.
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Post by ttoddt on Feb 8, 2009 17:03:18 GMT -5
Jesse,
You talk about the flesh being amoral. Yes when we talk about the phyiscal body. It has desires eg sleep, hunger, etc which are not evil in themselves. The flesh in the bible isnt just talking about the physical body. Can you explain the different meanings of flesh in the bible?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Feb 8, 2009 22:05:01 GMT -5
I don't see the problem. If we never sinned, there would be no sins that need to be atoned for. Only the sick need a doctor (Matt. 9:12; Mk. 2:17; Lk. 5:31). Only sinners need a Savior. If we never sinned, we wouldn't need Jesus. Everyone needs Jesus, because everyone has chosen to sin.
If Adam and Eve never sinned, would they need a Savior? No. A Savior presupposes sin. If Adam and Eve never sinned, they wouldn't need an atonement. Likewise, if I never sinned, I would not need a Savior, since I would have no sins that need to be atoned for. The same goes for everyone else.
Jesus was a man, he took on human nature. But Jesus didn't need a Savior. Why? Because He never sinned.
Hypothetically, if we never sinned, we wouldn't need a Savior. But realistically, we have all chosen to personally sin and therefore we all need a personal Savior.
I see no problem in saying that we need an atonement for our own personal, voluntary, avoidable transgressions. I do see a problem with saying that we need an atonement for the sins of another person, or for our own involuntary sinfulness or for unavoidable transgressions.
There are three uses for the word flesh in the Bible:
1. Individual people 2. The Physical Body 3. Living for gratification, that is, living to gratify the body and mind.
1. FLESH = PEOPLE WHO INHABIT THE BODY
The word "flesh" as in "body" is sometimes used in the Bible to mean people (those who inhabit the body).
Examples would be:
"And God looked upon the earth, and behold, it was corrupt, for all flesh has corrupted HIS way upon the earth." Gen. 6:12
"And Jesus answered and said unto him, blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven." Matt. 16:17
"... God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh" Rom. 8:3, which means, "... was made in the likeness of men." Php. 2:7
So sometimes the word "flesh" simply means "people" or those who inhabit the body.
2. FLESH = PHYSICAL BODY
The word "flesh" sometimes simply means "body".
Examples would be:
"For though we walk in the flesh" 2 Cor. 10:3
"And my temptation which was in my flesh" Gal. 4:14
".... for as many as have not seen my face in the flesh" Col. 2:1
"For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh..." 2 Jn. 1:7
"And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God." 1 Jn. 4:3
When the Bible says that we are supposed to sanctify our flesh, or present our flesh as a living sacrifice, it means that we are to use our body for the service of God.
Examples would be:
"Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin; but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God." Romans 6:13
"I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity, even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness." Romans 6:19
"I beseech you, therefore brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service." Romans 12:1
"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly, and I pray your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 Thes. 5:23
When the Bible says that Jesus took upon Himself human flesh, it means body. But Jesus never used his body to sin. Jesus had the same flesh that we have (Heb. 2:14; 1 Jn. 4:3; 2 Jn. 1:7).
A Christian has the same flesh after regeneration/conversion as they had at birth. Our flesh will never change until glorification. But we can sanctify our flesh and use it for God. The difference between a sinner and a Saint is that the former lives to gratify their flesh, the latter uses their flesh in the service of God.
Our flesh is not sinful. The way we can choose to use our flesh, in a selfish way, is sinful. Our flesh is just a tool according to Paul (Romans 6:13, 19), which we could use for righteousness or for unrighteousness.
3. FLESH = SELFISH or SELF-GRATIFYING LIFE; LIVING TO GRATIFY THE DESIRES OF THE BODY AND MIND
When the Bible says that we are no longer "in the flesh" it means that we are no longer living for the supreme purpose of gratifying our body and mind. That is what it means to not "walk after the flesh", that is, we are no longer living to serve ourselves or to please ourselves. The supreme pursuit of a Christian is to glorify God, but the supreme pursuit of the sinner is to gratify themselves.
Examples would be:
"But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit" Rom. 8:9
"That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lust of men, but to the will of God." 1 Peter 4:2
"This I say then, walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh." Gal. 5:16
"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." Gal. 5:24
".... some, which think of us as if we walked according to the flesh" 2 Cor. 10:2
"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." 2 Cor. 7:1
"For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world." 1 Jn. 2:16
In Summary:
Christians still live “in the flesh” (2 Cor 10:3), but they do not live “according” to it. (2 Cor 10:2) The physical body that Christians have is the same exact physical body they had when they were children of wrath (Php 3:11-12), and it will remain the same exact body until they die (2 Peter 1:14) until the resurrection when they receive a glorified body. (1 Cor 15:53-54)
While the constitution itself is the same, the usage of the constitution has changed. Christians have obeyed the command to “present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service” (Rom 12:1). “And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.“ (Gal 5:24) Christians are those who “let not sin reign in” their “mortal body” to “obey it in the lusts thereof”. (Rom 6:12) Christians have gone from being governed by the flesh (Col 3:7) to being governed by Christ. (Col 1:13) They have cleansed themselves from the filthiness of the flesh. (2 Cor 7:1)
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Post by biblegeek on Feb 9, 2009 0:58:38 GMT -5
"Hypothetically, if we never sinned, we wouldn't need a Savior."
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. Gal 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Jesse, I can't believe what Paul says here and what you say above. By the law shall no man be justified. The only thing the law can do is condemn a person. Should we, then, ignore the law? God forbid (Romans 6:1).
What do you do with Gal 2?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Feb 9, 2009 1:50:00 GMT -5
Sinners cannot be justified by the works of the law, because their works are not justifiable. Their works deserve condemnation. Their works are evil and therefore the law cannot justify their works. The law can only condemn their works.
To be justified, in the strictest meaning of the term, is to be declared "not guilty" of the charges brought against you. To be justified by the works of the law would mean that you stand before a court, the law examines your works, and they find them to be faultless. If your works are faultless, the law justifies you, that is, the court declares you innocent. That is what it means to be justified by the works of the law.
Paul tells us why we cannot have this type of legal or forensic justification, "Therefore by the deeds of the law shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. Romans 3:20
The reason we cannot be justified by the law is because we have sinned! The law cannot justify a sinner! The law can only condemn a sinner. The law cannot pronounce the guilty as "innocent"! Therefore, we cannot have a legal justification or a forensic justification, we cannot be justified by the works of the law.
What we can have is a gospel justification. Gospel justification is when God, as the Moral Ruler of the Universe, pardons us and treats us as righteous. Gospel justification is the pardoning of the guilty, legal justification is the laws pronunciation of innocence.
Sinners can have gospel justification but sinners cannot have legal justification. The only person who could have legal justification is the person who is actually innocent, who has never actually sinned. The law cannot condemn those who haven't sinned, the law cannot condemn those who are innocent.
Though God’s law is not impossible (Deut. 30:11; Job 34:23; Isa. 5:4; Matt. 11:30; 1 Cor. 10:13; 1 Jn. 5:3), and we are naturally able to obey God (Gen. 4:6-7; Deut. 30:11,19; Josh. 24:15; Isa. 1:16-20; Isa. 55:6-7; Hos. 10:12; Jer. 21:8; Eze. 18:30-32; Jer. 18:11; 26:13; Acts 2:40; Acts 17:30; Rom. 6:17; 2 Cor. 7:1; 2 Tim. 2:21; Jas. 4:7-10; 1 Pet. 1:22; Rev. 22:17), the truth is that no sinner (Matt. 9:12; Mk. 2:17; Lk. 5:31) can be justified by obeying the law, since present obedience cannot atone for past disobedience (Acts 13:39; Rom. 3:20; 3:28; Gal. 2:16). We are capable of obeying, but our obedience is incapable of atoning for our sins. No matter how much you obey, all you have done is your duty (Lk. 17:10).
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Post by joemccowan on Feb 9, 2009 9:37:55 GMT -5
If we can live this life without sinning and can be perfect then why did Christ die? Why do we need a savior? Good question. Babies die having never sinned. What do they need to be saved from? Salvation is a medical term, meaning to be healed or made well. Infants who die, need to be delivered from death and hades, not sin. Jesus took death and hades captive, became the first-fruits from the dead, making it possible for those being redeemed from sin as well as the innocent to be lead out of death, hades, and into the eternal Kingdom of God. Jesus chose to die in order to redeem even the innocent from death. Without His conquering of death, even the innocent would be cut off from eternal life in the Kingdom(though in hades they would inhabit paradise rather than torment). The Early Church understood the difference between paradise in hades and eternal life in the Kingdom of God, as did the first century Jews. Remember when the young man asked Jesus "what must I do to inherit eternal life"? All Jews were convinced they were going to paradise in "Abraham's bosom" but they were still looking for eternal life, rather than eternal paradise in the place of death (hades). This was the heart of the dispute between the Sadducee's and the Pharisees concerning the resurrection. The Pharisees understood that eternal life involved the salvation of men, including our physical bodies, and that eternal death was not God's intent for mankind. It was this dispute that ultimately lead to Paul's imprisonment. An infant who did not have the opportunity to live the life God intended needs to be redeemed to that life. Redemption from death then must precede living that life, so of course the innocent still need redemption. Blessings, Joe
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Post by dmatic on Feb 9, 2009 12:01:50 GMT -5
Jesse, your post, from which the following quote was taken, was pretty brilliant!
However, you wrote: God declares in Ezekiel that a righteous man's good deeds will be forgotten, (and not considered?) if he begins to do unrighteously. And a 'bad man's' unrighteous actions will be forgotten if he begins to do righteously. In other words, he will receive a righteous man's rewards.
People often mistake the idea of "Obeying the law" by comparing it to the "works of the law". The "works of the law", in my opinion, were those things "added" because of the disobedience to the law. (i.e. the sacrificial system). Even though God declared that those who sinned unintentionally, would be "forgiven" if they brought the proper sacrifice, the blood of bulls and goats could not make the offerer "righteous". So, maybe there is a difference between justification and forgiveness?
Peace, dmatic
Peace, dmatic
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Post by alyfireman on Feb 9, 2009 13:49:29 GMT -5
Jesse. thanks for answering my question however it saddens me to see someone with you zeal for reaching the lost is doing it with a false gospel. Jesse I know you don't know you me, but I must beg of you to please repent of making a false god and humble yourself before the true God that offers you salvation. I know that I am sounding harsh but please realize that I am doing this out of concern for your soul Jesse. I will be praying for you.
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Post by boldforchrist on Feb 9, 2009 17:59:22 GMT -5
Christ had to die on the cross. In order for God to be glorified. We should all understand that Christ died and rose again for many reasons. 1) For the forgiveness of our sins. Ephesians 1:7. 2) To absorb the wrath of God. Galatians 3:13. 3)To show the wealth of God's love and grace for sinners Romans 5:7,8 4) To bring us to faith and to keep us faithful...Jeremiah 32:40 and Mark 14:24. To make us holy, blameless and perfect...Hebrews 10:14 and Colossians 1:22. But it all comes around to this....to bring glory to the name of God! I for one do not want to imagine what my life would be like without the Holy Spirit dwelling within me, and this we know that the "Comforter" could not come until after Christ death and resurection.
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 9, 2009 19:19:16 GMT -5
Jesse. thanks for answering my question however it saddens me to see someone with you zeal for reaching the lost is doing it with a false gospel. Jesse I know you don't know you me, but I must beg of you to please repent of making a false god and humble yourself before the true God that offers you salvation. I know that I am sounding harsh but please realize that I am doing this out of concern for your soul Jesse. I will be praying for you. Don, I'd like to know what Jesse has said that is not from the Bible. You are a Calvinist, aren't you? If so, then Jesse could very easily repeat what you have said above to you. Why don't you address the things that he has said that are false and have therefore led to his "false gospel". This would be much more productive and convincing then saying what you have said above...
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Post by alyfireman on Feb 9, 2009 19:25:19 GMT -5
I don't see the problem. If we never sinned, there would be no sins that need to be atoned for. Only the sick need a doctor (Matt. 9:12; Mk. 2:17; Lk. 5:31). Only sinners need a Savior. If we never sinned, we wouldn't need Jesus.
This is what I take issue with. As far as me being Calvinist has noting to do with anything. I realize that the Doctorines of Grace are not essential to being a Christain. However people needing to repent and belive in Christ is.
The fact that he goes on to explain that we all have chosen to sin only confusses me. How does he know I've sinned what if I have not after all Mormans all over the world tell you that either they are perfect or that perfection is attainable.
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 9, 2009 19:37:28 GMT -5
I don't see the problem. If we never sinned, there would be no sins that need to be atoned for. Only the sick need a doctor (Matt. 9:12; Mk. 2:17; Lk. 5:31). Only sinners need a Savior. If we never sinned, we wouldn't need Jesus. I don't see a problem with what Jesse said above. What problem do you have with it? Do you think that people who haven't sinned need forgiveness or a Savior? Or do you think that Jesse is saying that there are people out there that haven't sinned and therefore don't need a Savior? I disagree. I say that your being a Calvinist has A LOT to do with it. You believe that people are "born sinners", are sinners "by nature" and that no one can stop sinning. If I believed those things, I would probably call Jesse's gospel "false". However, since I don't (and Jesse doesn't), he could just as easily call your "gospel" false. Sinners DO need to repent of their sins and believe in Christ in order to be forgiven of their sins. There is no question about that. The questions are, "Who are sinners?", "When do people become sinners?" and "How do people become sinners?" My answers are: People who have come to the state of accountability and have willfully chosen to sin, at the age of accountability and by choosing to disobey God's law. Your answers are probably: Everyone (including babies), when Adam sinned, by being conceived by another human. There is a world of a difference! If you are consistent, from your point of view, all babies who die as babies go to Hell because they have no ability to repent of their sins and trust in Jesus. Babies aren't sinners and therefore have no need of forgiveness. As Joe has already stated though, they need Jesus for redemption from death and Hades. While I hold that hypothetically someone could go their whole life without sinning, the only person who has done so is Jesus. If someone DID go their whole life without sinning, they would have trusted Christ and followed Him from the very moment of accountability. Anyway, I don't see anything false about what Jesse has said and I preach with him all the time and know that he doesn't preach a "false gospel."
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 11, 2009 16:53:03 GMT -5
Any response to my last post Don?
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Post by judgment on Feb 11, 2009 18:25:04 GMT -5
Yeah, you street preacher people here use a lot of big words and misconceived verses to cover the fact you preach a false Christ and a false gospel.
You are the ones who need to prostrate yourselves before God and repent.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Feb 11, 2009 23:24:41 GMT -5
You have a problem with this statement? All I am saying is that the necessity for an atonement for sin is the existence of sin. If sin does not exist, there is no necessity for an atonement for sin.
What is the alternative to my statement, that you need an atonement for sins even if you never sin?? Doesn’t an atonement for sin presuppose sin? If only the sick need a doctor, than only sinners need a Savior. Only those who have voluntarily chosen to sin, out of their own free will, are criminals in need an an atonement for their crimes. The atonement is to make pardon possible. Pardon presupposes crime. Therefore an atonement presupposes crime. If there is no crime, there is no need for pardon and consequently no necessity for an atonement.
Would you say, “If we never sin, we would still need an atonement for sin” or “Even if we are not sinners, we still need an atonement for being sinners”?
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Post by biblegeek on Feb 12, 2009 2:43:55 GMT -5
here's a nagging question that I don't have an answer for that maybe you can help me out with. Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
I'm trying to figure this out. If sin is defined as a willful transgression of the law, how do I reconcile 5:13 with that idea? I mean, you can't call sin, "sin" unless there is a law that says it's a sin. Please help me get my arms around this one. thanks
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Post by alyfireman on Feb 12, 2009 21:26:48 GMT -5
Sorry I didn't see a question in that last post, Rev. what actually would you like me to comment on?
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 12, 2009 22:40:54 GMT -5
Sorry I didn't see a question in that last post, Rev. what actually would you like me to comment on? Hey Don, just go back and read my last reply to you. Look for the symbols that look like this: ? You will find questions in front of them
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Post by dmatic on Feb 13, 2009 13:44:22 GMT -5
here's a nagging question that I don't have an answer for that maybe you can help me out with. Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. I'm trying to figure this out. If sin is defined as a willful transgression of the law, how do I reconcile 5:13 with that idea? I mean, you can't call sin, "sin" unless there is a law that says it's a sin. Please help me get my arms around this one. thanks biblegeek, sin is defined as transgression of the law, not necessarily willful transgression. Your question is a good one, though. It looks like since Adam and Eve sinned against the "law" of God, or His command to them, sin has been in the world. However..."sin" was not "imputed"...until there was a law... People were sinning, even though there was no law that defined it for them. The Law came to define what sin is, so that we may become educated as to what the will of God is. The Law does not automatically "make us obey it", or do anything to help us comply with it, but it is intended to show us the will of God. The willingness to keep His commandments come from his Spirit. In other words, people were sinning, in that they were doing their own will and not doing God's even though they didn't know what His will was. I don't know if that helps, but it is a good question that needs to be contemplated. Thanks for asking it! peac,e dmatic
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Post by dmatic on Feb 13, 2009 13:45:52 GMT -5
Yeah, you street preacher people here use a lot of big words and misconceived verses to cover the fact you preach a false Christ and a false gospel. You are the ones who need to prostrate yourselves before God and repent. Judgment, Who gave you the authority to judge so unrighteously? Certainly, we all are need of repentance....even you, it would appear! Peace, dmatic
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Post by pete777 on Feb 15, 2009 6:36:33 GMT -5
Friend, What is the false gospel that Jesse is preaching? I have been on this site for sometime and am very interested what is false that they are preaching! The gospel that Jesse preaches and Rev K is one of victory over sin in the flesh, by the power of the Holy Spirit, which enables us to live a righteous life here and now! Correct me if I am wrong! The open theism and other theories should not bother you. They have nothing to do with victory over sin! Or righteousness by faith! Please clarify what part of their preaching is false? Could it be the LAW issue? If the issue is about the law, I would like to clarify, and feel free to correct me if I do not accuratly reflect the general view. THE LAW: 1) It does not save us! Gal 5:4 2) The law shows us sin! Rom 3:19 3) The law is the standard of righteousness for time and eternity! Psalm 119:172, Rom 9:31 4) Grace is the power of God to obey the Law of God! And we are saved by grace, and the fruits of grace are the works of the law. We can not work the works of the law in our strength, for that would be legalism. But we can do it through the eternal creative power of the Holy Spirit called grace!!! Act 4:33, Eph 3:7 Please do not confuse the effects of grace in the life (law keeping) with the power that brings out obedience in us. It is not our power that we use to obey, it is God's power that enables us to obey ACTS 5:32! The issue of the LAW and WORKS is one of great impportance, because if the law could be changed or done away with, then Jesus Christ would not have had to die on Calvary! His Father could have just changed the law and "BAM" that is it! But the death of Jesus Christ on Calvary's cross is eternal proof of the unchanging nature of God's law! We are still bound to obey the perfect law of righteousness, but we need the gift of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to achieve this wonderful outcome! I pray this explains the view correctly, if not please feel free to correct me and edify your position on this issue! Praise Jesus Christ that gives us grace (Holy Spirit) to live righteous lives in this present evil world, Matthew
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Post by alyfireman on Feb 16, 2009 18:48:02 GMT -5
Hey Don, just go back and read my last reply to you. Look for the symbols that look like this: ? You will find questions in front of them I always wondered how that worked thanks for the correction ;D I am still working on a response, I want to make sure my remarks come across as not condescending. For now let me assure you that I believe we should seek hard to grow in holiness, however I believe strongly that we will never be perfect and I truly believe that sin runs so deeply into our nature and God is so Holy that even things we don't consider sin are indeed transgressions. I do have a couple of questions for whoever? How do you define justification, sanctification, and glorification? Seems that when I start I can't stop, I'll get back in a few more days with answers to your questions.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Feb 16, 2009 19:11:38 GMT -5
JUSTIFICATION
Justification is when God pardons a sinners crimes by His grace and mercy and treats the sinner as if he was righteous, as if he had never sinned (Psalms 31:1-2; Romans 4:7-8)
The grounds of justification or pardon is God's grace and mercy. The conditions of justification or pardon are atonement (Hebrews 9:22), repentance (Luke 13:3, 5), and faith (John 3:18).
SANCTIFICATION
Sanctification is of the will. Sanctification is moral perfection, when a man has a heart of submission and obedience instead of a will of rebellion and disobedience. Sanctification is to be set apart for the service of God. When a person is sanctified, they are separated from sin, submitted to the will of God. A sanctified man chooses to set aside all that they are to the service of God.
Moral perfection (sanctification) is attainable in this life (Gen. 6:9; 1 Kg. 15:14; 2 Kg. 18:3-7; 20:3; 2 Chro. 15:17; 2 Chro. 16:9; Job 1:1; 1:8; 2:3; Isa. 38:3; Ps. 17:3; 18:20-24; Lk. 1:6; Jn. 8:34-36; Acts 20:32; 23:1; 24:16; 26:18; Rom. 6:1-2; 6:6; 6:11; 6:18; 6:22; 1 Cor. 1:2; 1:8; 6:11; 2 Cor. 6:3; Heb. 2:11; 10:10; 10:14; Gal. 5:24; Php. 2:15; 3:15; Eph. 4:22-28; Col. 1:22-23, 28; 4:12; 1 Thes. 2:10; 3:12-14; 5:23; 1 Tim. 3:2; 3:10; Tit. 1:6-7; 2:12; 2 Pet. 3:14; 1 Jn. 2:5; 4:12; Jud. 1:1).
While a state of submission and obedience is attained at conversion, the Christian life is one of learning and growing. As we grow in knowledge, we should grow in obedience in proportion to our growth in knowledge. We should always obey what we know to be the will of God. Even though we will be ignorant of a great many things, we must always do what we know is right and never do what we know is wrong.
GLORIFICATION
Glorification is of the body. Glorification is physical perfection. It is when we receive a body that cannot be corrupted by disease or death.
Physical perfection (glorification) is not attainable in this life (1 Cor. 15:50-56; Php. 3:11-12).
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Post by biblegeek on Feb 18, 2009 2:10:15 GMT -5
The only person who could have legal justification is the person who is actually innocent, who has never actually sinned. The law cannot condemn those who haven't sinned, the law cannot condemn those who are innocent. ____________________________________________________________________________ There has only been one man that has accomplished this and his name is Jesus. Even Adam and Eve sinned. Eve sinned against the Lord in her heart first and then with her flesh. I'm caught between two thoughts. One - man has always seemed to have a natural bent towards sin starting with God's first creation. Yes, temptation was there. But the decision and natural tendency to rationalize the given temptation and to accept it as 'ok' was there too. To say that man was created without a tendency to lean towards disobedience might be short-sided. In all practicality, have you ever known anyone that hasn't had a natural 'lean' to do what the flesh wants? (I'm not talking about a license to sin... I'm talking about a natural desire to lust, rebel, be selfish, etc). If you really stop and take inventory of your life, were you selfish today? Did you eat the last cookie? Did you put yourself ahead of anyone else? Did you walk in a door first? Did you ask your wife to get you something that you could have gotten yourself? You're selfish. Did you worry today? About anything? Money? Schedule? Those are sins... selfishness is the root of pretty much all sin. Perhaps too many of us define sin as ONLY breaking the 10 commandments when Jesus defined it as issues of the heart that lead to breaking the 10 commandments. Two - Adam / Eve chose to sin as we chose to sin without any predisposition towards sin. I do believe that there is a choice that everyone makes, daily. It's possible to live a victorious life over sin.
Here are my problems. A) Too many define sin too loosely. They only count the act and not the thought. Sin in the heart is the same as the act of sinning. Selfishness is sin. Greed is sin. B) No matter how long a person has victory over all known sins, they inevitably will sin again. Proof.... name one person (besides Jesus who has the advantage of being God) who has lived victoriously without sinning in their heart. You can't and I can't because we don't know people's hearts. But anyone claiming to be sinless probably has a pride issue (which is a sin). So.... all we have to go on is our hearts. Can anyone on this board post on here that they haven't sinned in their heart for more than a month? I'm talking about pride, selfishness, doubt, fear... who here has overcome it all? Anyone? (Yes, Lord willing, everyone on here has overcome dope smoking, fornication, adultery, porn, homosex, crude language, etc... let's dig deeper to the issues of the heart). If you're on a campus and a totally hot, well-endowed female comes up wearing nothing more than a tiny bikini and stands right in front of you, where will your eyes go to first? Can you stop from taking another look (or will you rationalize it away and tell yourself that you aren't lusting, you were simply looking in disgust)? The natural tendency is to look twice. Would I fail? Not sure... it's possible. And if you're totally honest, your flesh would want to look (unless you're a homo). C) As many scriptures that point to being made in God's image and not in a 'fallen' state, there are as many (if not more) that point to the contrary. It just depends on which angle you're reading it from.
What is YOUR take on this? I'm not a calvinist. I'm a holiness preacher and liver. Finney doctrine is new to me and I've read quite a bit on it. But I still have a hard time defining scripture around logic rather than taking scripture at face value (contextually). At face value, this theological view points to the idea that one can live sinlessly perfect in this world. And if you count homosex, drugs, alcohol, language, fornication, etc, etc.... most 'holiness' Christians measure up. But when you count pride, selfishness, greed, lust, etc... nobody measures up for long. Now.... before you start blasting away at me, when was the last time you took pride in your car? Your appearance? Would it bother you if I took my key to your fender? How about if I spray painted your rims lime green? Out of all the biscuits in the basket, did you take the biggest or the smallest? Why did you take the biggest? Could it be greed? Or selfishness.... see where I'm going with this??? Aren't these sins too??? I believe they are, aren't they?
Your take please...
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Post by biblegeek on Feb 19, 2009 23:59:51 GMT -5
hello? Can anyone relate to my post? Is anyone there?
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Post by biblegeek on Feb 27, 2009 14:11:20 GMT -5
I guess nobody wants to respond because: - they are scared
- they know I'm right
- they don't know this post exists
;D Come on... don't be scared. Let's talk about this. Can anyone relate to my post above?
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Post by biblegeek on Feb 27, 2009 14:11:56 GMT -5
I guess nobody wants to respond because: - they are scared
- they know I'm right
- they don't know this post exists
;D Come on... don't be scared. Let's talk about this. Can anyone relate to my post above?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Feb 27, 2009 15:23:25 GMT -5
Nobody is born with a natural bent to sin, not before or after the fall.
All men, before and after the fall, are born with natural desires which can be gratified lawfully or unlawfully. It is not "sin" that our flesh wants. It is gratification of natural desires that our flesh wants.
It says Eve was tempted when she saw that the tree was good for food, pleasant to the eyes, and desired to make one wise. These were natural, God given desires which were good. But she took these good, God given desires, and gratified them through unnatural and unlawful means.
So does every sinner. We have taken the good, natural desires God has given us, and have gratified them through unlawful and unnatural means.
The essence of sin is selfishness. Sin is a selfish motive of the heart which manifests into outward actions. Love is the fulfillment of the law. A person who chooses to love God and love their neighbor are free from sin. Selfishness and benevolence are completely opposite states of mind, you cannot be both selfish and benevolent at the same time. Therefore a person is either sinful or holy at any given time, but never both at the same time.
Sin is a rebellious heart. A person is either rebellious or loyal at any given time. They cannot be both at the same time.
The only person I know of that has lived victoriously over sin from birth to death is Jesus Christ.
But I do know of others who have gone years without sinning. Bro Jed says he hasn't sinned in 20 years. His wife, Cindy, says she has never seen him sin and they have been married for around 20 years.
Even the Apostle Paul said that he always has a conscience void of offense.
Even if sin occurs, sin is avoidable (1 Cor. 10:13).
To claim to be without sin is only pride if it isn't true.
Pride is when you think of yourself higher than you really are.
If you really are without sin, it is not pride to humbly confess it.
I've gone a month without sinning. I have sinned only once since it turned 2009. My plan is to go the rest of the year, and the rest of my life, without sinning.
I've preached at beaches, where almost every girl is wearing a bikini, and I haven't lusted after them.
It is not a sin to have self-respect because you have worked hard and therefore has earned enough money to purchase a car or a home.
It is not a sin to get angry with someone for damaging your private property. We are supposed to be angry at sin. We should get angry, not only if someone damages our property, but also if someone damages another persons property. No doubt, God gets angry over sin. If we didn't get angry, it would show that we didn't respect other peoples property.
And it is not a sin for me to take the bigger biscuit, instead of letting my wife have it, because it takes more to fill me up than it does her.
It all comes down to the motive of the heart. If our motive is to live for ourselves supremely (selfishness) than we are sinful. But if our motive is to promote the glory of God supremely, and the well-being our neighbor equally, than we are sinless.
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