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Post by steve spidell on Apr 17, 2009 7:31:38 GMT -5
Jonathan said: What? are you saying we have to speak in tongues to be saved?? Speak where the Bible speaks, be silent where the Bible is silent! False teaching always begins with a false presupposition and twisting someones words. And that's exactly what i've seen you do on this thread. for instance: If this not a twisting of scripture and what someone has said, then i don't know what is!! That's why i said that, maybe to get your attention! You've said, the baptism of the Holy Ghost is not a gift, and i've already stated one passage, but here's another: Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Now, you said earlier that Cornelius and his house got the baptism before they were saved and then you just said that the gift of the Holy Ghost was salvation, so, please break down these verses for us. I've tried to get you to answer my last few questions, so that i can understand what you are saying, but to no avail!! We're, at least, using scripture and our understanding of it, but i don't know what you are using.
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Apr 17, 2009 18:01:47 GMT -5
False teaching always begins with a false presupposition and twisting someones words. And that's exactly what i've seen you do on this thread. for instance: If this not a twisting of scripture and what someone has said, then i don't know what is!! That's why i said that, maybe to get your attention! You've said, the baptism of the Holy Ghost is not a gift, and i've already stated one passage, but here's another: Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Now, you said earlier that Cornelius and his house got the baptism before they were saved and then you just said that the gift of the Holy Ghost was salvation, so, please break down these verses for us. I've tried to get you to answer my last few questions, so that i can understand what you are saying, but to no avail!! We're, at least, using scripture and our understanding of it, but i don't know what you are using. My rebuttal to your position concerning Mark 16:17 was logic. Acts 10 - There are many gifts of the Holy Spirit and the context supplies the substance. The gift being spoken of in Acts 2 is salvation, as I have already logically shown. (Page 3, Post #86) The gift in Acts 10 refers to the miraculous gift of speaking in other languages. Acts 10 does not refer to salvation because Cornelius could not be saved before he heard the words by which him and his household would be saved (... and he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord - Water Baptism). Acts 11:15 says "... The Holy Spirit fell on them as on us at the beginning." Holy Spirit baptism is not for every Christian. Had it been for every Christian the Apostle Peter would have said "As on the men in Joppa." According to this statement Peter had to think back 6-7 years in order to recall a similar instance. Jonathan, So, the promise was only to the apostles? And the house hold of Cornelius. and it is when Jesus gave miraculous gifts to them? Yes, it was when Jesus gave them miraculous gifts but the miraculous gifts were not the Holy Spirit Baptism. From what i understand you saying then, is, the baptism of the Holy Ghost is the gifting of miraculous gifts by Jesus to the apostles. Is that an accurate definition of your view? Close. Holy Spirit Baptism was the fulfillment of prophecy, confirmation of the word, and remembrance of the words spoken of by Jesus. Which was accompanied by the miraculous gift of tongues. Both instances of Holy Spirit Baptism were accompanied by Gifts but Miraculous gifts do not necessitate Holy Spirit Baptism. Right here my friend: Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. If this is not the baptism, then what is it? The gift is the gift of salvation. Can you receive without being filled? "Filled" or "Pimplemi" is a word that must be interpreted by the context. You can be saved and not have Miraculous Gifts and you can have Miraculous Gifts and not be saved (Cornelius). (Miraculous Gifts: Not required.) You also must be filled with the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 5:18) by letting the word of Christ dwell in you richly (Colossains 3:16,17). (Obeying God: Required) Isn't Acts 1:4-9 the promise of Acts 2:4. Yes. And isn't Acts 2:38 speaking of that same promise? No. Had these men been asking how to receive miraculous powers the Apostle Peter would have said "Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God."
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Post by steve spidell on Apr 17, 2009 19:21:09 GMT -5
Quotes are from Jonathan.
That was not my position, i was just showing how you twisted what someone else said. Bro. ross was just showing that signs will follow them that believe and it was not just for the Apostles (and Cornelius), because there are believers today. We can agree or disagree on if this is the baptism of the Holy Ghost or not, but you were twisting his words.
Agreed
You have made comments, but not logically nor scripturally. I think that Peter and the Apostles used "saved" "salvation" "remission of sins" and similar words to describe salvation, not "and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost". They were pretty smart, they knew the difference.
So, by this comment i take it that you believe we must be baptized in the name of the Lord to be saved or that they just needed to hear those words?? Not sure which one you mean.
I think the words spoken by Peter before the Holy Ghost fell on them was enough info for them to be saved:
Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. 39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree: 40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly; 41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead. 42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. 43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
And notice what happened after:
Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
What does Joppa have to do with anything? Peter was just saying that the Holy Ghost fell on the Gentiles (something that evidently had never happened) just as it did on them at Pentecost. The Holy Ghost did "fall" on the Samaritans in Acts 8: Acts 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) 17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost
Anyway, thanks for responding, i can't go on, my head hurts. ;D
blessings
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Post by messengermicah on Apr 18, 2009 11:38:35 GMT -5
This was ignored the first time so I will try again.
What is the doctrine of baptisms (plural) that is one of the doctrines of Christ? (Hebrews 6)
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Apr 18, 2009 20:59:44 GMT -5
That was not my position, i was just showing how you twisted what someone else said. Bro. ross was just showing that signs will follow them that believe and it was not just for the Apostles (and Cornelius), because there are believers today. We can agree or disagree on if this is the baptism of the Holy Ghost or not, but you were twisting his words. I never said only the Apostles had Miraculous gifts. You have made comments, but not logically nor scripturally. I think that Peter and the Apostles used "saved" "salvation" "remission of sins" and similar words to describe salvation, not "and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost". They were pretty smart, they knew the difference. So, by this comment i take it that you believe we must be baptized in the name of the Lord to be saved or that they just needed to hear those words?? Not sure which one you mean. The text tells us that the words that Cornelius and his house hold were to be saved by consisted of a commandment that they ought to do. Acts 10:6,22,33 Acts 11:14 I think the words spoken by Peter before the Holy Ghost fell on them was enough info for them to be saved: Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. 39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree: 40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly; 41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead. 42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. 43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. You forgot verse 37. "These things ye knowAnd notice what happened after: Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. Yes, as Peter began to speak the Gospel, which they knew, the Holy Spirit fell on them. If belief was all that was required of these men, Peter would not have needed to come. Cornelius definitely believed the Gospel and prayed to the God of the Bible regularly. What does Joppa have to do with anything? Peter was just saying that the Holy Ghost fell on the Gentiles (something that evidently had never happened) just as it did on them at Pentecost. If Holy Spirit Baptism was experienced by every Christian he wouldn't have had to go back 6-7 years in order to recall a similar instance. (He didn't even go back a couple years to recall Acts 8.) The Holy Ghost did "fall" on the Samaritans in Acts 8: Acts 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) 17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost This is referring to the impartation of Miraculous Gifts which were received through the laying on of the Apostles hands, not the Baptism of the Holy Ghost which was given by Jesus (not the Apostles).
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Apr 18, 2009 21:04:55 GMT -5
This was ignored the first time so I will try again. What is the doctrine of baptisms (plural) that is one of the doctrines of Christ? (Hebrews 6) There's a lot of Baptisms spoken of in the Bible (at least six or seven). Perhaps this has been ignored because we don't understand what you're asking.
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Post by messengermicah on Apr 20, 2009 15:24:48 GMT -5
Oh well in an earlier post you stated there was only one (Ephesians 4:5).
Now there is six or seven.
Which is it?
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Post by messengermicah on Apr 20, 2009 15:26:24 GMT -5
joemcowan, Hebrews 6:1-2-One of the principles of the doctrines of Christ is the doctrine of baptism(s)-plural. If the Nicene Creed or anyone else rejects Hebrews 6:1-2 doctrines of Christ including baptism(s) then they are wrong. That verse doesn't prove there's more than one baptism today. The Nicene Creed quotes Ephesians 4:5 "... one Lord, one faith, one baptism." I don't believe the Nicene Creed, I believe the Bible.
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Apr 20, 2009 16:00:01 GMT -5
That verse doesn't prove there's more than one baptism today. The Nicene Creed quotes Ephesians 4:5 "... one Lord, one faith, one baptism." I don't believe the Nicene Creed, I believe the Bible. There's one baptism for us today.
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Post by messengermicah on Apr 24, 2009 15:35:57 GMT -5
What are the six or seven baptisms mentioned in the Bible?
Which ones are not for today?
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