rwrf
New Member
Posts: 29
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Post by rwrf on Feb 16, 2009 8:24:43 GMT -5
I've followed the blog of Tony Miano for several months. He works for Ray Comfort's Living Waters ministry and trains students in evangelism. In general, he seems like a great guy. His recent blog post listed 10 marks of a false convert. Some of the points were good, but others seem to indicate marks of false conversion to Calvinism instead of the gospel. I simply asked him to reconsider some of the items that he listed. It seemed to me a lack of maturity to label people as false converts because they don't believe in determinism or are fleshly and fearful when it comes to evangelism. I challenged him basically on 4 of his marks of false conversion: - Belief in open theism
- Belief against original sin
- Belief in sinless perfection
- Belief in friendship evangelism
I hold to the first 2 and don't hold to the second 2, but I don't believe that any of these are marks of false conversion. However, Tony just dug in and commanded me to repent for believing heresy. thelawmanchronicles.blogspot.com/2009/02/ten-marks-of-false-convert.htmlThis brings up the topic for me: What are the essential doctrines of the Christian faith?
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Post by joeldad on Feb 16, 2009 10:56:48 GMT -5
He certainly comes out strong against those first three bullets you listed. But apparently he says that it's wrong to be a homosexual or a sinning Christian, yet in the next breath calls it heresy to deny original sin or to believe in sinlessness. Ummm?
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 16, 2009 12:07:45 GMT -5
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Feb 16, 2009 12:29:44 GMT -5
Hi Tony, I saw your recent blog post about "false converts" where you said that those who deny original sin, affirm open theism, or affirm Christian perfection, are "false converts". As you may know, I deny original sin and affirm both open theism and moral perfection. I would almost think your blog post was targeted at me because I am a major promoter of these doctrines. Would you be interested in a formal debate on any of these topics? We could have the debate over the phone on www.RefiningFireRadio.comA formal debate would give each of us an opportunity to state our cross, cross examine each other, offer rebuttals, etc. You can even pick which of these topics you would like to formally debate: original sin, open theism, Christian perfection. The radio show has around 40 live listeners and a few hundred downloaders. Many, if not most of our listeners seem to agree with me on this issue, so this would be an opportunity for you to show us our error if you can. I personally believe that the doctrines of inherited guilt or hereditary sinfulness, eternal exhaustive foreknowledge, and the impossibility of God's laws, are really indefensible and inconceivable doctrines. The doctrines of inherited innocence, a partly open future, and the possibility of moral perfection in this life are doctrines with reason, experience, Church history, and Scripture on their side. Let me know if you would be interested in doing a formal debate, or even a series of debates so we can cover all three of these topics. God Bless, Jesse Morrell www.OpenAirOutreach.comFeel free to email Tony to let him know you would be interested in hearing the debate: thelawman104@gmail.com
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Feb 16, 2009 12:36:32 GMT -5
I saw that contradiction and inconsistency also.
What do you expect the fornicator, adulterer, or murderer to do? To stop it??
If we cannot be perfect, we cannot stop sinning. If we can stop sinning, we can be perfect.
If we cannot stop sinning or be perfect, we have an excuse or justification for being fornicators, adulterers, and murderers.
Besides, aren't we born that way?? We can't help it. It is not our choice, it is our nature!
If Tony wants fornicators to stop fornicating, adulterers to stop committing adultery, or murderers to stop murdering, then he is being inconsistent with his doctrine of original sin or the impossibility of perfection.
Tony said in his introduction:
What? You can stop sinning? You mean, moral perfection is possible in this life??
It is inconsistent for anyone to call people to repentance if original sin is true (if men are sinners by no choice of their own and if their will is not free) and if moral perfection is not possible.
One of his marks of a false convert is:
But if God's grace does not change us, since moral perfection is not possible in this life, then isn't the grace of God a license for being imperfect?
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rwrf
New Member
Posts: 29
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Post by rwrf on Feb 16, 2009 13:29:05 GMT -5
I know that Christians will always have strong disagreements about doctrine. But, what bothers me most is that Tony takes, for example, the doctrine of Original Sin and makes it an essential doctrine of the Christian faith. What about the doctrine of Original Sin makes it essential? Why is it heresy to believe you are a sinner by choice instead of a sinner by nature.
I can't ever recall hearing any Bible teacher make a case for the centrality of sinful nature to the gospel.
I suspect that Augustine's doctrine of original sin is given no room for debate, not because it is central to the gospel, but because it is one of the foundations of Calvinism.
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 16, 2009 13:30:16 GMT -5
Yeah, he talks out of both sides of his mouth, just like most Paul Washer-like Calvinists...
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 16, 2009 21:18:23 GMT -5
I suspect that Augustine's doctrine of original sin is given no room for debate, not because it is central to the gospel, but because it is one of the foundations of Calvinism. DING! DING! DING! DING! We have a winner Bob! Tell him what his prize is: RWRF, you are the next non-Calvinist to be called a "HERETIC"! And you qualify for the grand prize as well: Burned at the take my GREEN WOOD in Geneva! Well, at least Calvinists will finally "get it" (understand God is what I mean) when they stand in judgment.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Feb 17, 2009 21:46:48 GMT -5
Tony turned down my invitation to debate. He seems to be willing to promote his positions but unwilling to defend his positions.... I'm disappointed.... But if I had an indefensible position, I wouldn't want to try to defend it either!
You would think someone who is so bold and has such strong convictions, as to say that open theists are false convicts, would actually jump on an opportunity to debate an open theist... But I guess not..
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rwrf
New Member
Posts: 29
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Post by rwrf on Feb 18, 2009 6:42:27 GMT -5
All I asked was simply an explanation as to why open theism should be considered a non-Christian heresy, and he, so far has refused to answer, despite his claims of concern for my soul.
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 18, 2009 10:20:33 GMT -5
Tony turned down my invitation to debate. He seems to be willing to promote his positions but unwilling to defend his positions.... I'm disappointed.... But if I had an indefensible position, I wouldn't want to try to defend it either! You would think someone who is so bold and has such strong convictions, as to say that open theists are false convicts, would actually jump on an opportunity to debate an open theist... But I guess not.. How did I know that he would do that?
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kenm
Full Member
Posts: 173
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Post by kenm on Feb 18, 2009 10:47:28 GMT -5
If he is so sure that any one who holds to open theism or against original sin is not a Christian, than he is not a true evangelist by passing up the opportunity to share the truth and try to keep us from going to hell.
Why wouldn't he want to share the truth as he believes it to try to keep us from dying in a state of heresy?
I have never heard any preacher on this board ever just tell someone they are going to hell without explaining Salvation through Jesus Christ.
What he is doing is the equivalent of telling someone they are going to hell for a certain belief without any scripture proof and then saying I do not care enough about you to try and explain the truth to you as he sees it.
It is not a matter of winning a debate but sharing the truth, but I guess you must be searching for the truth to realize it when you see it.
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Post by pete777 on Feb 21, 2009 7:05:16 GMT -5
Brethern,
I completely disagree that Christian's will always disagree on Bible doctrine. The Bible states in John 16:13 that the Holy Spirit is given to teach us!
If we are taught by God, is He confused and inconsistent?
Does He forget what he taught one person and change it up His teachings (doctrine) every so often to make it interesting?
If you said yes to any of the above then in stead of a "ding, ding, ding" as Rev K would say, you get a GONG! GONG! GONG! And you are the one that does not have the Great Teacher, called the Holy Spirit in the life. The reason there is so much contension in Christianity is because:
1) False Bible translations
2) Serious lack of humility (pride, pride, and more pride)
3) And a general laziness to search the scriptures for yourself, and believe it.
4) Fear of standing alone in matters of divine truth
5) Filthy traditions that have slimed their way into the apostate churches of today
6) The love of a certain sin, keep the Holy Spirit on the outside waiting at the door of the heart to take His rightful possession of the mind/heart. Thus, no teacher for the sin loving hippocrit!
7) A failure to fulfill the revealed duties of a Christian, which is witnessing for Jesus Christ. If you do not water others with truth, you will be left out in the desert of spiritual knowledge of God's Holy Word.
There are more reasons I am sure, but I think the main ones are well edified. Sin separates man from God! How can the Holy Spirit teach when the classroom (mind/heart) has Satan and some other stupid demons in it teaching their filth??? Get rid of the sin and you will see the false doctrines grow wings and fly away, literally! The demons will go torment someone else that wants to suffer under their "scholarly" tutelage!
Ephesians 4:4-7
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord , one faith , one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. KJV
THere is ONE FAITH!!! There are many FALSE FAITHS!!!! If you want a greater gift of grace, then SEEK GOD with all your heart, mind, soul and strength and you will get that gift and be in the true CHURCH, with the true faith and the one LORD over all, which is the BIBLE JESUS CHRIST!!!
Blessings, Matthew
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Post by prespilot68 on Feb 21, 2009 9:13:11 GMT -5
Brothers,
In the past few days I had posted several comments on Tony Miano's blog regarding his accusations against Open Theism and those who deny Original Sin. After looking back over my comments I realized that my comments could have been less personal and stuck more to the facts of the debate. For this I am truly sorry and I apologize for my comments and if they were hurtful towards Tony and if I misrepresented the Moral Government community in anyway. I have posted an apology to Tony on his blog. I would appreciate your prayers as I deal with the issue of debating Calvinist. There are times where I allow my zeal and my feelings to get the better part of me and I realize I cannot engage in ad hominem attacks and make character assassinations. Again, I hope those of you on here would forgive me for misrepresenting the MG community and I have ask God to forgive me also of my attitude and behavior.
God Bless Preston
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Post by pete777 on Feb 26, 2009 21:42:03 GMT -5
Preston,
Praise God that your conscience is alive and well! Our conscience is the voice of God communicating the LAW of God to our mind and heart. As we submit to our conscience we are in fact submitting to Jesus Christ through the ministry of the Holy Spirit, that was sent in Christ's name. It is the science of the gospel to be led by the hOly Spirit to a point of humility and absolute surrender.
May God bless you and others that want to submit fully to the indwelling power of grace (Holy Spirit's power) so that our self-will can be yielded to the will of God for our lives. May we all be shaped and molded by "gospel plan for man."
Matthew
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Post by jonspeed on Feb 27, 2009 18:23:44 GMT -5
Preston,
Did you sin when you made those posts?
If so, did you lose your salvation?
These are honest questions that you must face if you hold MG theology.
Jon
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Post by John McGlone on Feb 28, 2009 18:33:16 GMT -5
Jon you still hold that you can not lose salvation?
If so, how do you interpret 2 Pet 2:20-22?
Thanks.
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