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Post by anonatheist on Feb 26, 2009 13:35:39 GMT -5
I have asked a countless number of Christians for proof that your God exists. As this board is open to questions, I ask you: What is your proof, outside of the bible, that your God exists and that no other God's exist?
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BroPatOC
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The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
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Post by BroPatOC on Feb 26, 2009 15:11:26 GMT -5
Why exclude the Bible? It's self confirming.
Why ask a question and limit the sources for the answer? Are you really asking, or are you just trying to comfort yourself in your denial?
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Post by debonnaire on Feb 26, 2009 15:37:48 GMT -5
Hi ! and welcome.
Before becoming a Christian, i was some kind of "doubtist" or agnostic. There were people i knew who were convinced that God exists , and others who were convinced of the opposite... Well, I was there standing in the middle of nowhere , for noone would bring the proof of the existence or the non existence of God , although they had arguments... Somehow I was sure that any human being has a soul , and as the soul is invisible, so maybe there was more than what meets the eye , but ... not knowing for sure was a kind of 'torture' for me.
It's only when i was in my thirties, at a time where burdens (moral failures and the like) had accumulated , that i thought again of this, wondering what comes after death, etc... I was struggling to have purity of heart and peace , but could not find any. I started to repent in my heart given my past. Then a Christian woman at work spoke to me about the living Jesus , and i read seriously the Gospels , you know Luke , Mark, Mathew and John. I was thirsty to know. And i simply believed about Jesus , what He said convinced me that he was more than a wise man. I believe what it is said in the Gospels about the Cross, that He died for my sins, and that He is still alive to save the sinners ... ... Then i knew , for what i had believed became a reality. .
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Post by anonatheist on Feb 26, 2009 17:02:34 GMT -5
Why exclude the Bible? It's self confirming. Why ask a question and limit the sources for the answer? Are you really asking, or are you just trying to comfort yourself in your denial? I ask for sources other than the Bible because I would like corroborated evidence - evidence that is verified by multiple sources. I cannot simply believe in something with only one source. EDIT: I do not try to comfort myself in my denial as what I know constantly changes with new evidence. I am a scientist at heart and the root of all science is that if new evidence proves something different, follow the evidence.
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Post by anonatheist on Feb 26, 2009 17:13:24 GMT -5
Hi ! and welcome. Before becoming a Christian, i was some kind of "doubtist" or agnostic. There were people i knew who were convinced that God exists , and others who were convinced of the opposite... Well, I was there standing in the middle of nowhere , for noone would bring the proof of the existence or the non existence of God , although they had arguments... Somehow I was sure that any human being has a soul , and as the soul is invisible, so maybe there was more than what meets the eye , but ... not knowing for sure was a kind of 'torture' for me. EDIT: Thanks for the welcome! It does not torture me like it did you. I have no evidence in hand, so I can only return to agnostic-leaning-atheist. Yes, everyone has given me arguments as well but there is no hard evidence for me to go off of. Personal stories are all well and good, but they provide no real evidence that God exists. They can only explain the internal turmoil that one has (that everyone has, believer and non-believer alike) and how one copes. In your case, you grasped onto religion as a coping mechanism. You needed a source of hope in your life (this is not a bad thing, albeit misguided as you are grasping onto something with blind faith). It still does not prove God exists any more than he did before your conversion.
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BroPatOC
New Member
The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Posts: 42
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Post by BroPatOC on Feb 26, 2009 22:24:36 GMT -5
Anon,
You may want corroboration, but again, why exclude any source right from the start if you are really seeking an answer?
God has placed the main emphasis on His word. In His word, He tells us that "Good and upright is the LORD, therefore will he teach sinners in the way" (Ps 25:8, KJV). The question is not "Is God willing or able?", the question is "Will you listen?".
If you will not even consider God's word in the discussion, you are actually telling God to "be quiet!". Be careful.
The problem is not a lack of evidence, but a love of sin. That is what it all comes down to. We all have to choose, love God or love sin. The burden of proof is not on God, either. He is one day going to judge the world in righteousness (see Acts 17:31). The burden will then be on you.
Time is a factor here, so be wise and "Seek the LORD while he may be found" (Isa 55:6, KJV).
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Post by anonatheist on Feb 26, 2009 23:03:26 GMT -5
Anon, You may want corroboration, but again, why exclude any source right from the start if you are really seeking an answer? God has placed the main emphasis on His word. In His word, He tells us that "Good and upright is the LORD, therefore will he teach sinners in the way" (Ps 25:8, KJV). The question is not "Is God willing or able?", the question is "Will you listen?". If you will not even consider God's word in the discussion, you are actually telling God to "be quiet!". Be careful. The problem is not a lack of evidence, but a love of sin. That is what it all comes down to. We all have to choose, love God or love sin. The burden of proof is not on God, either. He is one day going to judge the world in righteousness (see Acts 17:31). The burden will then be on you. Time is a factor here, so be wise and "Seek the LORD while he may be found" (Isa 55:6, KJV). The problem I have with the bible is that it is the ONLY source that everyone (including you apparently) that is cited when proving the existence of God. I've heard enough from the bible, but have heard zero elsewhere. If you have extra evidence, please feel free to show me. A love of sin has nothing to do with a lack of evidence. I would gladly believe in God should the evidence be produced that confirms his existence and agrees with the Bible. The only thing preventing me from believing in God is reasonable doubt. Remove that doubt, and I will convert.
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BroPatOC
New Member
The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Posts: 42
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Post by BroPatOC on Feb 27, 2009 0:00:32 GMT -5
Anon,
What have you actually "heard" from the Bible?
Overwhelming evidence rarely (if ever) produces real converts (examples of the contrary available in the Bible).
God has not obligated himself to give you any more evidence than you already have, and you have plenty (Bible).
You demand that God "show you and you'll believe". You can't dictate terms to God. His are "believe, and I'll show you".
Faith! After over 20 years as a Christian, I can tell you it's not blind faith either. God is faithful. He does what He says.
There, you now have two sources other than the pages of scripture. You have my testimony and Debonnaire's. Actually, it sounds like you have many others as well, but you still won't listen.
Here's one more. You are your own evidence.
The problem still is the love of sin and the hatred of the God of the Bible that leads people to be "willingly ignorant" and "hold the truth in unrighteousness" (more Bible). People knowingly suppress the truth to their own destruction.
God is faithful. He does what He says. He has mercy on those that repent and believe the gospel and He punishes those that refuse.
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Post by Brother. Ross on Feb 27, 2009 0:20:01 GMT -5
I have asked a countless number of Christians for proof that your God exists. As this board is open to questions, I ask you: What is your proof, outside of the bible, that your God exists and that no other God's exist? 1: History, 2: The life of Jesus Christ, 3: Creation, 4: Bible, 5: The dramatic 180 Degree change in the life of people that are converted. How is it possible that a racist, quick tempered, murderer, who couldn't care less about anybody, be converted, be filled with love to the point that he is spit on, assaulted, persecuted and rejected harmlessly receives it with joy.
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Post by Kureji on Feb 27, 2009 11:37:26 GMT -5
How is it possible that a racist, quick tempered, murderer, who couldn't care less about anybody, be converted, be filled with love to the point that he is spit on, assaulted, persecuted and rejected harmlessly receives it with joy. I'd say hes probably just crazy.
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Post by Rhema Seeker (Guy) on Feb 27, 2009 13:11:04 GMT -5
iF YOU WANT PROOF REALLY. wITH AN OPEN HEART TO KNOW TRUTH, ASK GOD HIMSELF TO REVEAL HIMSELF TO YOU. IF YOU ARE REALLY OPEN TO TRUTH, HE WILL WITHOUT DOUBT DO SO PROVING HIMSELF TO YOU. MAN CANNOT PROVE TO YOU ANYWAY THAT HE EXISTS, IT IS HIS OWN WORK TO PROVE TO YOU. ONLY IF YOU TRULY ARE OPEN TO TRUTH THOUGH.
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Post by anonatheist on Feb 27, 2009 13:43:30 GMT -5
Let me say this again: Just because the bible says so does not make it true. What the bible says are stories. Stories become fact when it can be determined that the events in them are a) plausible and b) independently verified. Scripture != proof. See my answer at the beginning of this post. And again, testimony from two people still does not prove that God exists. If you heard testimony from a million people that Zeus changed their lives would you believe in Zeus? Of course not! What makes your God so special? So God loves me if I believe in him and hates me if I don't. Sounds like an easy way to get people hooked into religion by scaring the crap out of them. Unfortunately for you, there is none of that fear in me. Try again. I'll agree with Kureji, that person would be clinically insane. Might want to check them out for bi-polar manic depressive disorder. iF YOU WANT PROOF REALLY. wITH AN OPEN HEART TO KNOW TRUTH, ASK GOD HIMSELF TO REVEAL HIMSELF TO YOU. IF YOU ARE REALLY OPEN TO TRUTH, HE WILL WITHOUT DOUBT DO SO PROVING HIMSELF TO YOU. MAN CANNOT PROVE TO YOU ANYWAY THAT HE EXISTS, IT IS HIS OWN WORK TO PROVE TO YOU. ONLY IF YOU TRULY ARE OPEN TO TRUTH THOUGH. Remember kiddies, caps lock is cruise control for cool. You are shooting yourself in the foot by behaving this way. All joking aside, are you kidding me? This isn't evidence at all. Ask God to reveal himself? I don't think so. If God WANTS me to believe in him he will reveal himself to me without me even needing to ask. Surely an omniscient and omnipotent being would be humble enough to reveal himself at the least?
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Post by Kureji on Feb 27, 2009 14:25:15 GMT -5
If God WANTS me to believe in him he will reveal himself to me without me even needing to ask. Surely an omniscient and omnipotent being would be humble enough to reveal himself at the least? I think you're asking a bit much of God to show himself all the time. I don't even that much. I just ask that he prove that he exists to me when I ask him. Trouble is I never get a reply. So the Christians tell me I'm not really trying or, I need to believe or something. Seems kinda funny that I have to believe in something before it will prove that I should believe in it. Kinda like "you should trick yourself into seeing something to reaffirm your belief system." Either that or God is a jerk who won't return my phone calls. (I thought things were going so well too.)
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Post by anonatheist on Feb 27, 2009 14:42:29 GMT -5
I think you're asking a bit much of God to show himself all the time. I don't even that much. I just ask that he prove that he exists to me when I ask him. Trouble is I never get a reply. So the Christians tell me I'm not really trying or, I need to believe or something. Seems kinda funny that I have to believe in something before it will prove that I should believe in it. Kinda like "you should trick yourself into seeing something to reaffirm your belief system." Either that or God is a jerk who won't return my phone calls. (I thought things were going so well too.) I'm not asking God to show himself all the time, but for at least enough time that he could easily make himself known without any tricks or old books. Other than that, well said.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Feb 27, 2009 15:00:22 GMT -5
What kind of "proof" are you asking for? What kind of "proof" would it take for you to believe in God?
If the "proof" you are requiring is confirmation by your sense of sight, aren't you begging the question of the God of the Bible? The God of the Bible is spirit and invisible. By requiring sight confirmation for the existence of an invisible God is to beg the question.
The nature of the object of knowledge determines and limits the means of acquisition.
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BroPatOC
New Member
The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Posts: 42
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Post by BroPatOC on Feb 27, 2009 15:26:44 GMT -5
Anon,
Your last statement sums up your whole problem.
I'd offer evidence for discussion, but you are closed mindedly demanding God to bow to your commands. It doesn't work that way. God scorneth the scorners (you too Kureji).
Like it or not, the God of the Bible is coming to make war with you. You may want to find out what the conditions of peace are.
Also, God hates workers of iniquity because they work iniquity. Sin is bad. God is good. Because He is good, He will deal with your sin problem. How He deals with it is up to you. Stop rebelling against him. Your love of sin is the reason you "don't believe". One day for sure you will be convinced.
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Post by Rhema Seeker (Guy) on Feb 27, 2009 15:37:53 GMT -5
Sorry for cap locks, I was in hurry and trying to post quickly. But the truth be known, you will never be convinced in God without seeking HIM first. No man can come to God without God drawing that man to HIMSELF. You see that is FAITH. Once you put faith to action, then shall you know the TRUTH. It is not a feeling, a seeing a hearing but a KNOWING that HE IS WHO HE IS. You want to know HIM with your mind, but will not happen.
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Post by anonatheist on Feb 27, 2009 21:34:55 GMT -5
Ok, it seems I have the answer from everyone here - stop looking for any earthly evidence and just believe in God and he'll reveal himself to me. I'll accept that you have given me an answer. My search still continues however as simply believing in something will not make it true, no matter how much one will try. Those of you who have succeeded, enjoy whatever you feel you get out of it. I won't try to dissuade you from believing it, I just wanted to understand how you felt you knew that God existed.
Have a good day and a good life. I will not bother this board anymore.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Feb 28, 2009 11:25:20 GMT -5
HOW GOD'S EXISTENCE IS NOT KNOWN
God's existence is not known through our senses or Scriptures. God is an invisible spirit, therefore God cannot be proven through our eye sight. It is begging the question to demand to see God. The Scriptures assume God's existence, they do not prove God's existence. God is known by men before they read the Bible. And it is a fallacious argument to say that God exists because the Bible says so.
HOW GOD'S EXISTENCE IS KNOWN
God's existence is known through our reason and our conscience. God is known as Creator "a posteriori" and as Moral Governor "a priori".
AS CREATOR - A POSTERIORI
Through our reason, God is known a posteriori.
It is a first truth of reason that every effect must have a cause. Anything that is finite, or that has a beginning, must have a cause. It is impossible for an effect to occur without a cause. The first cause of the universe must be self-existent, eternal, or infinite. Otherwise, the first cause of the universe would have a beginning and be finite therefore would need a cause itself. The first cause of the universe is, as a matter of fact, self-existent, eternal, and infinite.
Since effects cannot be greater than the cause, we know God to be a conscious, living, intelligent, moral being. We know through our reason that mankind is finite, had a beginning, and therefore needed a cause. And we know through our reason that the cause of mankind must be greater than mankind.
Through reason we know God to be the Creator.
AS MORAL GOVERNOR - A PRIORI
Through our conscience we know God a priori.
We intuitively know right from wrong through our conscience. We cannot help but to assign moral qualities to our own actions and the actions of others. We know ourselves to be under moral law. Moral law presupposes a moral government. Moral government presupposes a Moral Governor.
Through our conscience, God is known as a Moral Governor.
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Post by fs on Feb 28, 2009 12:44:44 GMT -5
Notice the atheist left. Maybe he couldn't handle your argument.
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Post by tony1984 on Feb 28, 2009 19:44:08 GMT -5
It is sad to see how much people reject what they can not see with their eyes or hear with their ears. "Those who have ears let him hear and eyes let him see" these are not physical eyes and ears that we are reading about in scripture here... these are spiritual eyes and ears because God is spiritual. Now I understand that this atheist needs physical proof that he/she can see, hear and touch but the truth is that you dont always need to physically see, hear and touch something to know that it exist. Our belief in God is based on faith and without faith our belief is in vein. You will never know if God exist or not unless you have faith. Once you have faith then can you experience your evidence. No one knew that micro particles existed because they could not see, hear or touch it until someone had faith that it did and took time to search it with an open heart and mind thus finding that they did exist with much evidence... nevertheless they would not have found the evidence unless they had the faith that it exist.
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Post by fred on Feb 28, 2009 20:51:55 GMT -5
Thomas doubted the resurrection of Jesus and insisted he would need to see to believe, which he did. Jesus reminded him that blessed is he who has NOT seen and believed. As Christians we understand stepping out in faith, but the nonbelievers lack this and there is where the problem rests. In the eyes of the atheist we are foolish. In professing to be wise, they have become as fools. Yet they do not see this.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Feb 28, 2009 22:52:54 GMT -5
If God did not exist, we could never trust our senses. Only if God is our Creator and Designer can we assume, as a first truth of reason, the accuracy of our senses.
And If God did not exist, we could not have life, logic, morality, or uniformity in nature. Our finite life requires an infinite life as a cause. Logic, or the law of logic, must be derived from the mind of God. The laws of logic must be the laws that govern God's own mind. Morality is declared and enforced by God. If morality is not a revelation from God, it must come from ourselves, in which case it can never be absolute. Uniformity in nature requires God to sustain and orchestrate nature.
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Post by koontzy on Mar 4, 2009 2:24:37 GMT -5
well he said he is a scientist, so lets look at this..
The Bible tells us the earth is a sphere, its there in black and white, yet at the time the bible was written alot of people believed the earth was either flat, or that it sat on the back of a turtle.. Even after the bible was written people believed it was flat. But the bible has always said what it was, why? because God told them what to write.
Although he didnt say it, he is more than liekly and evolustionist, but they dont ever follow the evidence for their belief, because there is none.
Lets look at the Historical aspects.
Noahs Ark and the Flood (heck most scientists that used to not believe this story say that it happened), although they still wont admit that God did it .
Moses red sea crossing (besically been proven to have happened by numerous scientists,and georgraphers), or they say it could have haoppened, yet they wont put God into it.
Also look at Josh Mcdowell(I believe thats who it was), who was unsaved and went overseas on a mission to prove that Jesus was a fake, and the bible was false and that there was no God, and what happened...he got saved, and now spends his life telling his story.
Lets not let people like this ruin anything. i have debated USC(University of South carolina) science professor over atomic collection during a process of evolution compared to Creator-based beliefs.
But hey, i hope this guy maybe one day finds the true and living God as so many of us have and doesnt suffer the punishments of hell.
i for one will be praying for him....
God Bless
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Post by fred on Mar 6, 2009 17:57:46 GMT -5
Yes , it was McDowell who sought to disprove the Bible and ended up a great believer.
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