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Post by John McGlone on Feb 28, 2009 22:48:25 GMT -5
We have a very nice family down the ridge from us that are YHWH believers. Basically, according to my understanding of their materials. The only true Name by which we can be saved is YHWH. Lord, God, Son, Jesus Christ are either labels or pagan names that have been instituted over the centuries.
I think they are unitarians, but I can't get them to admit to that. From what I understand they believe in YHWH Elohim, and YHWH Messiach, and YHWH Holy Spirit. I am not sure I am communicating that properly but they believe in three offices and persons but they insist that YHWH is the Name of them all. For example, we must be baptized in the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Well, if you are thinking those are three different names then why the singular for Name in the verse? But, if it is offices and the Name YHWH was deleted then it would make more sense. I know that the tetragammon, YHWH is Biblical and the Jews used this form as they did not want to blaspheme God's Name.
They have a clear Christian testimony, large family 11 children, and live godly in this wicked generation. Any thoughts or additional information about this group would be greatly appreciated.
God bless you.
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Post by pete777 on Mar 1, 2009 0:32:23 GMT -5
John,
I have met a family that was Baptist, and separated from that church because of the many false teachings in the system. They were called out from that church by the Holy spirit. They studied the Bible and the Bible alone, and their worship is very apostolic and everything they do is Biblical. They do not understand all things yet but God is leading them and they are growing.
In general they are sick of the apostasy in the fallen churches of Babylon. This group YHWH are sick and tired of the wicked fallen churches of Babylon as well. There are good people in their fellowship and God is working with many of them. However, the church has false doctrine and makes it a part of Babylon as well. The people can be witnessed to but they have accepted lies as to the name of God. This makes witnessing hard, because they are sure that there are pagan doctrines that have infested the modern churches, and they are correct, but they went too far with the name of God, and as a consquence they deny the plain teaching of Scripture!
In order to witness to them you need two things:
1) An excellent knowledge of history and paganism that came into the church in the early centuries. As well as knowledge of Babylonian, and Egyptian history in relation to their pagan practices, which are very similar. They need an accurate view of history and they will see the pagan influences that came in and be able to see that they are wrong when it comes to some of their teachings!
2) The second thing you need to do is go over Bible prophecy! They need to see Christ in prophecy! Then they will understand that the pronounciation of a name does not now or ever can save, but rather humility and absolute surrender to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, in order to sanctify the life from sin in the flesh.
In other words they need to get their facts straight and that can only be done from a historical and prophetic view. Then they need to understand the doctrine of Righteousness By Faith (RBF), and that will allow the Holy Spirit to start convicting them of sin and truth in the word. They need to place their confidence in the Word of God. Satan has placed doubt in thier minds about the KJV, and that is very dangerous! Without thier solid footing on the word, the task offers little hope!
Alexander Hislop wrote a book called "Two Babylons" and is based on his hands on research in excavating ancient Babylon. He was a linguist and was able to uncover the mysteries of their religion from artifacts. The book is an accurate source and provides great insight into the false system and traditions that have crept into the church! The name of God issue can be cleared up using info like this!
The book proves without any question that the Roman Catholic Church is modern spiritual Babylon, with her daughters (fallen apostate Sunday churches). The worship in the roman Catholic church is the same as in ancient Babylon 600 years BC. The names of thier gods have changed for the outsiders (deceived followers), but the names remain the same for the seccret initiated cultists in the inner circles of the Papacy! They worship Satan directly, and they know it!
The book is a must read! It should be in every minister's bookshelf!
Blessings,
Matthew
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Post by joemccowan on Mar 1, 2009 15:30:55 GMT -5
John,
I ran into a group of these people in Asheboro about 10yrs ago. They meant well but were extremely ignorant of Church History and scripture. Like other groups, they lack context in what they quote and seldom have a grasp of what they use as their proof texts. I admired their zeal, it was just misplaced. I would focus on the Early Church and the writings of the Fathers. That said, they have a gnostic approach that doesn't allow them to hear what you have to say very well.
Blessings, Joe
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Post by dmatic on Mar 2, 2009 16:11:01 GMT -5
There are many varieties of "Sacred Namers".
I'm not sure of which you are describing. But, it is true that the KJV omitted the name of "God" in its version. The YHWH or YHVH "name" of "God" is correct, but no one knows how to pronounce it! If they claim that they do....I would be a bit skeptical, though it is possible, I suppose, that the Eternal came and revealed it to them somehow.
Certainly, they may be on a closer path to the truth than many "christian" denominations. Who knows?
Anyway, love them. Speak your truth in love. Listen to them, if you will. And, continue to seek the path that few will find! The one that leads to LIFE!
Peace, dmatic
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Post by michaelmarkley on Mar 22, 2009 13:44:05 GMT -5
"Sacred Namers". the one thing that I cant get over is "some claim Jesus is a evil pagan name! what is the motivation?
I have said I love Jesus and have seen "Sacred Namers" cringe.
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Post by dmatic on Mar 28, 2009 12:07:06 GMT -5
And what do you think when you see them cringe?
Many people think they have the truth, and unless one sees things as they do, that the other is simply not up to speed, yet.
There is much pride in the world. People often want to be a part of the "in" group, and appear more righteous than others....and be special!
Maybe it would be good if we didn't judge others so harshly that don't seem to see things as we do. Even those who cringe!
Peace, dmatic
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Post by zombilly on Apr 9, 2009 4:23:03 GMT -5
We have a group of these people in San Bernardino. They are very cultic in appearance and work on breaking a person by intimidation. Yet after all the screaming (literally) was done, one of the observations I made to them about YHWH being nowhere in the NT since that is Hebrew and the NT was written in Gk had no reply. The pastor just looked at me with an open mouth. All of his maps and diagrams and readers and screaming (did I mention what a circus act the service was?), he had nothing, nothing to say to the most simple point.
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Post by dmatic on Apr 9, 2009 10:34:48 GMT -5
And yet, Y'Shua said that He had revealed His Father's name to His disciples....
I'm not so sure that the New Testament was originally written in Greek either, by the way. Evidence exists that Matthew, for one, was originally written in Hebrew or Aramaic, then translated into Greek.
Peace, dmatic
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Post by John McGlone on Jun 19, 2009 11:53:29 GMT -5
thanks for all your replies, I really appreciate it. I have been continuously praying for them and studying these issues. Some keys are: 1. knowing early church history 2. Messianic prophecies 3. Tetragramaton knowledge 4. linguistic understandings 5. Septuagint input
They are KJV only, yet reinterpret that version everytime Jesus comes up!
Some history on them, they were: SDA'rs, then YHWH/Jehovah, then YHWH only.
I asked the husband when he finally came to the Messiah, and he replied 1997, then I asked him when he came to YHWH only, he said 2007, then I asked him was he saved from 1997, and he replied that he did not think so.
Please pray for us as we prepare to meet this doctrine head on and yet continue our relationship with them.
God bless you all.
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Post by jackjackson on Jun 30, 2009 14:21:16 GMT -5
John:
It is known that the OT was written in Hebrew. If anyone has seeb a Torah Scroll (first five books) it can be observed that Hebrew had no vowels, only consenants. So where the actual name of God is found, we find the YHVH.
Jehovah Witness' will say His name is Jehovah, adding the e, o, and a; and turning the Y sound into the letter J. As Dmatic stated, because the name is not written with vowels, and because Hebrew has many rules in grammar to be used to determine which vowels should be used; some have gone the root of Judiasm and not pronounce the sacred name at all, replacing the word HaShem, or "the name".
The KJ replaces YHVH with capital LORD, where that YHVH is found in the text. If they have Lord, (only L capital) it is probably the Hebrew word Elohim.
There is a prophesy that His name would be taken from Israel for disobedience. I don't know the exact location for that, but "Sacred Name" folks believe that Judaism lost the correct name, or had it taken; restored only now to them. Many of them feel it is blaspheomous to not pronounce His name. Many say that name is pronounced "Yahway" where the "v" has a "W" sound.
As for the name Jesus, we all should know that He was never called Jesus as that is not a Hebrew name. Jesus is a transliteration of a Hebrew name, transliterated first to Greek letter; then to English. In Hebrew Yeshua would likely be the name for the Messiah. But when writing in Greek, one just can't write "Yeshua" among otherwise Greek letter, so the writers had to find a Greek spelling which when spoken would sound closest to His name. In Greek there is no "Y" letter, so the transliteration was abound as best they could do (see His name in Greek text). Then the transliteration had to be done again from Greek to English and we get a name "Jesus".
He responded to that name, in my ignorance. But now that I know His name is Yeshua, I pray in the name of Yeshua, not Jesus. I use Jesus only dependant on my audience so they know who I am speaking about.
I learn on caution sake in regards to YHVH's name and have heard both sides to pronouncing or not; being in what is called Messianic Movement. I normally just insert the actual letters when I come to it. For example, Yod Hey Vav Hey said unto Moses.........
I would love to talk you you more about it and help you understand it better. You can call me at our new homestead in Missouri 417-683-9919 to catch up.
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Post by John McGlone on Jul 7, 2009 0:12:10 GMT -5
Thanks for all that good information Jack. Sorry, I haven't called I just saw this post. I will try and call tomorrow.
God bless you bro,
John
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Post by anchor on Aug 1, 2009 18:17:32 GMT -5
thanks for all your replies, I really appreciate it. I have been continuously praying for them and studying these issues. Some keys are: 1. knowing early church history 2. Messianic prophecies 3. Tetragramaton knowledge 4. linguistic understandings 5. Septuagint input They are KJV only, yet reinterpret that version everytime Jesus comes up! Some history on them, they were: SDA'rs, then YHWH/Jehovah, then YHWH only. I asked the husband when he finally came to the Messiah, and he replied 1997, then I asked him when he came to YHWH only, he said 2007, then I asked him was he saved from 1997, and he replied that he did not think so. Please pray for us as we prepare to meet this doctrine head on and yet continue our relationship with them. God bless you all. Hello, here is a good Scripture which I think applies well with this subject and it is found at 1 John 4:9-12, 14-17: 9 "In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. 10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. 12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. "......."14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. 15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. 16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. 17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as He is, so are we in this world. And 1 John 5:9-11: "9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. " Surely, they too, believe also in Jesus Christ as God's messiah and His Son don't they? Sure we need to BELIEVE in God and in His Word but unless we accept His Son and the ransom, and OBEY all that Yeshua spoke, we can't gain God's favor. Anchor707
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Post by anchor on Aug 1, 2009 18:18:28 GMT -5
thanks for all your replies, I really appreciate it. I have been continuously praying for them and studying these issues. Some keys are: 1. knowing early church history 2. Messianic prophecies 3. Tetragramaton knowledge 4. linguistic understandings 5. Septuagint input They are KJV only, yet reinterpret that version everytime Jesus comes up! Some history on them, they were: SDA'rs, then YHWH/Jehovah, then YHWH only. I asked the husband when he finally came to the Messiah, and he replied 1997, then I asked him when he came to YHWH only, he said 2007, then I asked him was he saved from 1997, and he replied that he did not think so. Please pray for us as we prepare to meet this doctrine head on and yet continue our relationship with them. God bless you all. Hello, here is a good Scripture which I think applies well with this subject and it is found at 1 John 4:9-12, 14-17: 9 "In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. 10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. 12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. "......."14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. 15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. 16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. 17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as He is, so are we in this world. And 1 John 5:9-11: "9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. " Surely, they too, believe also in Jesus Christ as God's messiah and His Son don't they? Sure we need to BELIEVE in God and in His Word but unless we accept His Son and the ransom, and OBEY all that Yeshua spoke, we can't gain God's favor. Anchor707
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