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Post by Jesse Morrell on Apr 2, 2009 14:47:55 GMT -5
Calvinism says that we have a sinful nature. Gnosticism says that we have sinful flesh.
Calvinism and Gnosticism both ascribe moral qualities to matter or our constitution. Both of these extend morality beyond the states of the will.
What saith the Bible?
- Our flesh is just dirt (Gen 2:7) - Our flesh can be sanctified (1 Thes 5:23) - Our flesh is an instrument we can use for good or evil (Rom 6:13). - Our flesh can be a holy sacrifice unto God (Rom 12:1) - Jesus came in the flesh (1 Jn 4:3; 2 Jn. 1:7) - Jesus had an identical nature and flesh as us (Heb. 2:14-18)
But the NIV translated the word "flesh" as "sinful nature". That is modern day Gnosticism. Gnosticism is alive and well today under the name of "Calvinism".
You cannot have a sinful nature or a sinful flesh anymore than you can have a sinful rock or a sinful stick. What part of our flesh is sinful? The eye, the ears, the hair, etc?
Sinfulness relates to sin. Sin is violating the law. God's law tells us what types of choices to make, not what type of nature to have or what type of body to have. Therefore our choices can be sinful, but our flesh or our nature cannot be. Morality relates to the will. Moral attributes or qualifies cannot be prescribed to matter, but only to states of the will. Sinfulness is a state of the heart, not a state of the flesh. Sin is a rebellious state of mind, not a corrupted state of our nature. Sinfulness is nothing more than disobedience to God’s law. Only our choices can violate God’s law. Our body, flesh, or nature cannot violate God’s law, because God’s law does not say anything about them.
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Post by boldforchrist on Apr 2, 2009 16:53:43 GMT -5
Sinfulness is the state of ones mind. You are exactly right. Unfortunately, every single person who has ever lived other than Jesus Christ, has had a sinful mindset. If you claim that you do not, or that you have not for any amount of time, (more than a few seconds), than you in essence are saying You and Christ are the only sinless men to have ever lived. Does this seem blasphemous to you? It should! What you are preaching is what is called "Theology of the glory of man" where you are responsible for your salvation, you earned by your works. Instead of preaching a "Theology of the Cross", where you admit you are sinful (if you have sinned once, you are a sinner) you admit "you are saved by grace alone and not of your works", in which case, God gets all the Glory for your salvation, to say otherwise is to give your salvation to YOU!
If you are sinless, if you can save yourself, then tell me one thing please.... why do you need a Savior? Why did Christ die on the cross if Jesse can save himself?
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Post by Jeffrey Olver on Apr 2, 2009 18:10:15 GMT -5
I am not for division at all. I was discussing theology with a friend of mine when I said this; "In Christianity, it doesn't matter what one believes as far as theology. The truth of God is lived out in their life." Calvinists who love the Lord preach repentance. Armenians who love the Lord thank the Lord for His ultimate sovreignty. The Westboro Baptist Church is better known as the "God Hates F*gs" people. Let me be clear: I am NOT saying all Calvinists are like that. I AM saying that their position is the logical end of straight Calvinism. I used to have a very sinful mindset! Thank God for the cross of Christ! I got "brainwashed." And I can renew my mind everyday, according to scripture! I have sin on my account - to say I didn't, I'd be a liar. But glory to God, I can choose to take the escape from temptation as provided by God when temptation comes! To say we cannot make that choice, or that we must choose sin, or that we will eventually choose sin is a lie. It doesn't matter if from now till Judgment day that everyone decided to sin - it will never change the fact that we all have the choice: sin or righteousness. This doesn't reduce the glory of the Cross, but lifts up God's wisdom and providence and patience towards us! It is the glorious truth proclaimed that God is NOT a slovenly tyrant who would demand His subjects do what they cannot. But a loving and kind God who only demands of his subjects what is possible. God bless!
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Post by boldforchrist on Apr 2, 2009 18:41:50 GMT -5
Very well put! One of the few people to see this! But, Calvinist do not say we must choose sin. We should avoid sin like our lives depend on it! But we do all fall back into sin from time to time, and when we do fall into it, we should feel contrite and repent of that sin. For one to say they do not sin is putting himself at the right hand of Jesus and God. This is the point I am making here. I get very defensive when people let their pride elevate them above others, and you were not doing this, I admit that. If we get nothing else from scripture, in my opinion, it should be this...that we all need to humble ourselves and that pride is what is of the evil one, saying "I don't sin" is nothing more than pride, and how is that humbling oneself?
You must agree that division gets the message of Christ no where. Discussing theology is great, I am sorry for jumping on you if that was your agenda.
I have a question for you here, if God chooses us, or if we choose Him, what difference will it make when we all get to Heaven? Can we change the truth one way or the other? There is scripture that points to both being right, I do not deny that at all. We, as students of the Bible can interpret it the best we can, but it will make little difference.
Can we choose not to sin? Of course, He gives us the choice to sin or not to sin! He even gives us the gift of the Holy Spirit to help fight the temptation of sin. Do we still sin even with this gift of the Spirit? Unfortunately yes, sometimes. Does this mean that if we sin even once after we are saved that we are damned to Hell? If so, Heaven will be almost empty. If we are truly saved, we will not want to sin, the very thought of sinning will make us sick to our stomachs! But, we are still weak humans, we are not divine. We are not glorified yet.
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Post by christiansoldier on Apr 2, 2009 19:11:42 GMT -5
I am not for division at all. I was discussing theology with a friend of mine when I said this; "In Christianity, it doesn't matter what one believes as far as theology. The truth of God is lived out in their life." Calvinists who love the Lord preach repentance. Armenians who love the Lord thank the Lord for His ultimate sovreignty. The Westboro Baptist Church is better known as the "God Hates F*gs" people. Let me be clear: I am NOT saying all Calvinists are like that. I AM saying that their position is the logical end of straight Calvinism. I used to have a very sinful mindset! Thank God for the cross of Christ! I got "brainwashed." And I can renew my mind everyday, according to scripture! I have sin on my account - to say I didn't, I'd be a liar. But glory to God, I can choose to take the escape from temptation as provided by God when temptation comes! To say we cannot make that choice, or that we must choose sin, or that we will eventually choose sin is a lie. It doesn't matter if from now till Judgment day that everyone decided to sin - it will never change the fact that we all have the choice: sin or righteousness. This doesn't reduce the glory of the Cross, but lifts up God's wisdom and providence and patience towards us! It is the glorious truth proclaimed that God is NOT a slovenly tyrant who would demand His subjects do what they cannot. But a loving and kind God who only demands of his subjects what is possible. God bless! Yes, but Jesse compared Calvinist to satanist and now Calvinism to gnosticism. why not call me a Nazi? why not call Calvinism communism? as Bold said earlier there are no Calvinist whom use their doctrine as a reason to sin. and yes, Jesse, flesh is sinful, Romans 7:18 says: "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not." There are some points of Calvinism I do not agree with, and there is a lot of Armenian points I do not agree with, but I do not walk up to Armenians and start calling them Satan worshipers. I watched a documentary on satanist a few months ago, and it was very disturbing. To compare a fellow brother in Christ to these sick people is nothing short of stupidity. Maybe Jesse should follow this advice sometime.. "It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, then to open your mouth and remove any doubt"
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Apr 2, 2009 22:04:31 GMT -5
That is right! All men have chosen to be sinners except Jesus Christ.
We could have lived sinless like Jesus did. Jesus could have lived sinful like we have. But Jesus choose sinlessness while we have all chosen sinfulness.
Who is preaching that?
How can we be responsible for our salvation? It is GOD who pardons us and it is GOD who influences us to repent. All we do is forsake sin and trust in Jesus.
And how can salvation be earned by works? Works cannot merit salvation. Good works can never make up for bad works, there needs to be a blood atonement.
I used to be sinful but then JESUS got all the sin out of my life. All glory to God!
It was GOD who provided the atonement. It was GOD who pardoned me of all my sins. It was GOD who influenced me to repentance. The only thing that WE are supposed to do is decide to turn from sin and trust in Christ.
We need Jesus because we have all chosen to sin. Not because we were born with a sinful flesh, but because we have made sinful choices.
Through Jesus Christ, we can be perfect. No man can be perfect on their own. We need the help of God. We need the free will that Jesus created us with, the conscience the Holy Spirit gives us, etc, in order to be morally perfect.
If we decide to forsake sin and trust in Christ, GOD will pardon us through the atonement that HE has provided. Our salvation is from Him.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Apr 2, 2009 22:08:13 GMT -5
My flesh is not sinful. My flesh is a holy sacrifice unto the Lord. My flesh is wholly sanctified. My flesh is an instrument of righteousness. Where does the Bible ever say that the flesh is "sinful" There is no doubt that our flesh is depraved and fallen. But it certainly cannot be called "sinful" because sinfulness is nothing more than disobedience to God's law. Was the flesh of Eve sinful because she desired the fruit? Was the flesh of Jesus sinful because he was hungry and tempted to turn the stones into bread? Is a person weighs 150 pounds, are they less sinful then a person who weighs 155 pounds? If sinfulness is matter, the person with more matter has more sinfulness. If the flesh is sinful, you don't need Jesus, you just need a diet or liposuction! Isn't it GOD who forms us in the womb? We get our flesh from God. Why would God give us sinfulness? Is God the author of our sinfulness or do sinners author their own sinfulness? If the flesh is sinful, God is the author of sin. If only choices are sinful, sinners are the authors of sin.
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Post by markgavin on Apr 5, 2009 19:35:52 GMT -5
Jesus came in the likeness of sinful flesh. maybe that is what they are refering to. romans 8:3
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