|
Post by Jesse Morrell on Apr 3, 2009 18:32:55 GMT -5
My last newsletter talked about how two sinners prayed for salvation in Miami. A brother emailed me about whether or not the idea of sinners praying for salvation (sinners prayer) was biblical. This was my answer:
I am glad that you have been enjoying the newsletters and that we agree on so many theological issues.
Regarding a "sinners prayer", the closest that you could come to that in Scripture is:
"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?" Romans 10:13-14
The word "call" here means to cry out upon, to appeal to, to call out to. It is when sinners call or cry out to Jesus Christ for salvation.
It is clearly biblical for sinners to call upon the name of the Lord in order to be saved. Calling upon Jesus, and praying to Jesus, in my understanding is one and the same thing. Therefore it is biblical for sinners to pray to Jesus Christ for salvation.
I am not against the idea of a "sinners prayer". A "sinners prayer" is simply when a sinner prays to God for forgiveness. The Bible says that we are to confess our sins in order to be forgiven (Prov. 28:13; 1 Jn. 1:9). Who are we supposed to confess our sins to if not God? If we want forgiveness of sins from God, we should confess our sins to God. And how can sinners confess their sins to God without praying? Therefore again it is biblical for sinners to pray to God (a sinner's prayer, or the prayer of a sinner) confessing sin and asking for pardon.
A Biblical sinners prayer is when a sinner:
1. Calls upon the name of the Lord 2. Confesses their sins to God
God Bless,
Jesse
|
|
djpray
Junior Member
"Filipino" Preacher Man!
Posts: 86
|
Post by djpray on Apr 3, 2009 19:39:21 GMT -5
Hey bro, As soon as I saw the title of your newsletter, I knew someone would question you about it Sinners crying out to God for salvation - ie. as you mentioned 1) Calls upon the name of the Lord 2) Confesses their sins to God - seems to be okay. But actually leading someone in a "sinners prayer" (pray the following prayer after me....etc. etc. etc.) would seem to be wrong and not scriptural - seeing as how there are no instances of that taking place in the Bible (the repeat after me formula). I can't imagine Ruben doing a repeat after me prayer....so I guess the person he talked with was really crying out to the Lord. In the second case, it wasn't very clear. But anyway, hopefully and prayerfully they were sincere. And on a side note, as far as I can tell, baptism was the normal or standard first step of faith - or act of confessing and calling on the Lord - in the New Testament. Maybe y'all should have had a baptism service on the beach DJ
|
|
|
Post by Jesse Morrell on Apr 4, 2009 18:01:02 GMT -5
There is certainly nothing wrong with sinners praying to God for forgiveness. Ps 51 is a sinners prayer. So is Matt 6:12
|
|
|
Post by jonathandwhitehead on Apr 5, 2009 15:41:56 GMT -5
There is certainly nothing wrong with sinners praying to God for forgiveness. Ps 51 is a sinners prayer. So is Matt 6:12 It's not biblical when dealing with the conversion of an alien sinner.
|
|
|
Post by goodtidings on Apr 5, 2009 20:43:00 GMT -5
THE ONLY PRAYER GOD WILL HEAR IS THE PRAYER THAT GOD INSPIRES!
Romans 8:26-27
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. KJV
Man does not know what to pray for, and even if he did have a head knowledge (knosis) it would do no good!
God requires a willingness to submit to His will and when that threashold is reached in a fallen sinner, then the Holy Spirit will accept that person as truly repentant!
In fact this is what the Holy Spirit has been leading men and women to do: Jer 31:3! God is wooing us to oopen our heart to the power and influence of the Holy SPirit! When we do this the plan God has for man can become realized! If man never submits! Then the wonderful plan God has provided (predestinated) is lost and man stays in wicked darkness!
Man cannot change the future! Man can only seek God in true heart felt repentance (which is the work of the Holy SPirit IN MAN) and allow GOd to open up the pre-ordained plan that God has seen from the beginning for that person!
Prayer is heaven initiated! It is not something man thinks up! It is alway a lifeline from heaven to man, in order for him to conform to the will of God! That is why the Holy Spirit has to do the intercession, because man is stupid and ignorant, and cut off from any intelligence or wisdom that God can appreciate! We must be perfect humble and allow God to do all for us!
Psalms 25:9
9 The meek will he guide in judgment: and the meek will he teach his way. KJV
Tidings
|
|
|
Post by jonathandwhitehead on Apr 5, 2009 21:23:25 GMT -5
THE ONLY PRAYER GOD WILL HEAR IS THE PRAYER THAT GOD INSPIRES! Romans 8:26-27 26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. KJV Man does not know what to pray for, and even if he did have a head knowledge (knosis) it would do no good! God requires a willingness to submit to His will and when that threashold is reached in a fallen sinner, then the Holy Spirit will accept that person as truly repentant! In fact this is what the Holy Spirit has been leading men and women to do: Jer 31:3! God is wooing us to oopen our heart to the power and influence of the Holy SPirit! When we do this the plan God has for man can become realized! If man never submits! Then the wonderful plan God has provided (predestinated) is lost and man stays in wicked darkness! Man cannot change the future! Man can only seek God in true heart felt repentance (which is the work of the Holy SPirit IN MAN) and allow GOd to open up the pre-ordained plan that God has seen from the beginning for that person! Prayer is heaven initiated! It is not something man thinks up! It is alway a lifeline from heaven to man, in order for him to conform to the will of God! That is why the Holy Spirit has to do the intercession, because man is stupid and ignorant, and cut off from any intelligence or wisdom that God can appreciate! We must be perfect humble and allow God to do all for us! Psalms 25:9 9 The meek will he guide in judgment: and the meek will he teach his way. KJV Tidings I would encourage you to use this website to dissect Calvinism.
|
|
|
Post by jonathandwhitehead on Apr 9, 2009 21:28:26 GMT -5
I guess no one wants to touch this subject with a ten foot pole. hehe
|
|
|
Post by messengermicah on Apr 12, 2009 21:16:15 GMT -5
What is an "alien" sinner?
A sinner from another planet?
Who calls upon the name of the Lord to be saved (Romans 10:13)?
What is the context of Romans 10?
|
|
|
Post by debonnaire on Apr 13, 2009 5:50:43 GMT -5
a sinner of another planet . ahaha ;D
i suppose that Jonathan meant someone who does not belong to the people of God ?
The context of Romans 10 implies that those who "invoke the name of the Lord" , are those who have received and believed in their heart the Gospel of Salvation which has been preached to them, so obviously people who did not belong to the Lord yet but are on the point to become His.
|
|
|
Post by jonathandwhitehead on Apr 13, 2009 6:07:01 GMT -5
a sinner of another planet . ahaha ;D i suppose that Jonathan meant someone who does not belong to the people of God ? The context of Romans 10 implies that those who "invoke the name of the Lord" , are those who have received and believed in their heart the Gospel of Salvation which has been preached to them, so obviously people who did not belong to the Lord yet but are on the point to become His. Agreed.
|
|
|
Post by messengermicah on Apr 16, 2009 16:26:16 GMT -5
The context of Romans 10 is preaching the Word of God to those who have not heard (in case you are unsure these would be "alien sinners").
How can they believe on Him in whom they have not heard? How can they hear without a preacher? (Romans 10:14)
The ones who are calling on the Lord to be saved are those not saved.
|
|
|
Post by jonathandwhitehead on Apr 16, 2009 17:35:22 GMT -5
The context of Romans 10 is preaching the Word of God to those who have not heard (in case you are unsure these would be "alien sinners"). How can they believe on Him in whom they have not heard? How can they hear without a preacher? (Romans 10:14) The ones who are calling on the Lord to be saved are those not saved. Agreed, how are you equating this to the sinners prayer?
|
|
|
Post by messengermicah on Apr 18, 2009 11:34:07 GMT -5
Show me where I ever mentioned any "sinners prayer"?
|
|
|
Post by jonathandwhitehead on Apr 18, 2009 21:06:51 GMT -5
Show me where I ever mentioned any "sinners prayer"? So, how are you saying one calls upon the name of the Lord?
|
|
|
Post by steve spidell on Apr 19, 2009 13:04:03 GMT -5
Better yet, Jonathan, why don't you tell us how someone gets saved. Because you really have me confused over on the other thread that we have been discussing. So, can you explain how someone comes to salvation/saved/forgiven, (how ever you want to say it, you know what i mean)
|
|
|
Post by jonathandwhitehead on Apr 19, 2009 15:24:45 GMT -5
Better yet, Jonathan, why don't you tell us how someone gets saved. Because you really have me confused over on the other thread that we have been discussing. So, can you explain how someone comes to salvation/saved/forgiven, (how ever you want to say it, you know what i mean) Hear Believe Repent Confess Be Baptized I'm sure we can agree on most of those. However, if we disagree one a few, we can discuss it. Take Care, Jonathan
|
|
|
Post by steve spidell on Apr 19, 2009 21:34:52 GMT -5
Better yet, Jonathan, why don't you tell us how someone gets saved. Because you really have me confused over on the other thread that we have been discussing. So, can you explain how someone comes to salvation/saved/forgiven, (how ever you want to say it, you know what i mean) Hear Believe Repent Confess Be Baptized I'm sure we can agree on most of those. However, if we disagree one a few, we can discuss it. Take Care, Jonathan Thanks for the civil reply, Jonathan Do you mean to be baptized in water? And do you believe baptism (in water if that's what you mean) is a requirement to be saved, or in other words, that no one can be saved unless they are baptized?
|
|
|
Post by jonathandwhitehead on Apr 20, 2009 7:36:06 GMT -5
Hear Believe Repent Confess Be Baptized I'm sure we can agree on most of those. However, if we disagree one a few, we can discuss it. Take Care, Jonathan Thanks for the civil reply, Jonathan Do you mean to be baptized in water? And do you believe baptism (in water if that's what you mean) is a requirement to be saved, or in other words, that no one can be saved unless they are baptized? Yes sir, that is correct. I believe Water Baptism is calling upon the name of the Lord which is for the remission of sins.
|
|
|
Post by messengermicah on Apr 20, 2009 15:20:41 GMT -5
Where do you preach open air Jonathan?
|
|
|
Post by jonathandwhitehead on Apr 20, 2009 15:58:55 GMT -5
Where do you preach open air Jonathan? Downtown Little Rock, Arkansas. Why do you ask?
|
|
|
Post by messengermicah on Apr 23, 2009 14:47:35 GMT -5
Does anyone ever listen to you?
|
|
djpray
Junior Member
"Filipino" Preacher Man!
Posts: 86
|
Post by djpray on Apr 23, 2009 18:02:14 GMT -5
Suppose Jonathandwhitehead preached in downtown Little Rock, Arkansas and nobody listened to him, but instead walked past and ignored him. Would that automatically mean he was preaching wrong?
|
|
|
Post by jonathandwhitehead on Apr 23, 2009 21:03:16 GMT -5
Suppose Jonathandwhitehead preached in downtown Little Rock, Arkansas and nobody listened to him, but instead walked past and ignored him. Would that automatically mean he was preaching wrong? In fact, it may indicate that I'm preaching the truth. 2 Timothy 4:3-5.
|
|
djpray
Junior Member
"Filipino" Preacher Man!
Posts: 86
|
Post by djpray on Apr 23, 2009 22:14:20 GMT -5
I would agree with that...."In fact, it may indicate that I'm preaching the truth. 2 Timothy 4:3-5"
|
|
|
Post by steve spidell on Apr 23, 2009 22:29:28 GMT -5
Hey djpray, why would you agree with that?
You're a monergism guy aren't you?
that's pretty far from believing that one must be water baptized to be saved, isn't it?
|
|
djpray
Junior Member
"Filipino" Preacher Man!
Posts: 86
|
Post by djpray on Apr 24, 2009 0:39:37 GMT -5
My point would be that having or getting a crowd (ie..people listening) is not necessarily a sign that one is preaching correctly or preaching the truth. Sometimes the truth turns people off and they don't want to listen. Micah was asking "Does anyone ever listen to you?" I am not sure what relevance that question has because having a crowd or not having a crowd does not automatically mean that God is for you and your message or against you and your message. As I reread the posts, I can see that what I wrote might be understood to give the idea that I support what jonathan is preaching. I am sorry for implying that. And I should have made myself clearer. What I agree with is his point that "preaching and nobody listening ...may indicate that a person is preaching the truth." - not that Jonathan is necessarily preaching the truth himself. I guess I am slightly fed up with what seems to me as an overemphasis amongst street preachers in "getting a crowd." I hear that often amongst street preachers and have used that idea as well...in my own street preaching (wow, we had a huge crowd today...etc...etc.....we had a heckler, drunk guy, etc and a crowd gathered....) In fact, it almost seems that in some street preaching circles there is an idea that if you fail to get a crowd, then you must be doing something wrong.....ie....you are failure....you have a problem....etc. . But, hey that is another topic for the board. Maybe I will open it up one day when I have time.
|
|
|
Post by jonathandwhitehead on Apr 24, 2009 8:35:30 GMT -5
My point would be that having or getting a crowd (ie..people listening) is not necessarily a sign that one is preaching correctly or preaching the truth. Sometimes the truth turns people off and they don't want to listen. Micah was asking "Does anyone ever listen to you?" I am not sure what relevance that question has because having a crowd or not having a crowd does not automatically mean that God is for you and your message or against you and your message. As I reread the posts, I can see that what I wrote might be understood to give the idea that I support what jonathan is preaching. I am sorry for implying that. And I should have made myself clearer. What I agree with is his point that "preaching and nobody listening ...may indicate that a person is preaching the truth." - not that Jonathan is necessarily preaching the truth himself. I guess I am slightly fed up with what seems to me as an overemphasis amongst street preachers in "getting a crowd." I hear that often amongst street preachers and have used that idea as well...in my own street preaching (wow, we had a huge crowd today...etc...etc.....we had a heckler, drunk guy, etc and a crowd gathered....) In fact, it almost seems that in some street preaching circles there is an idea that if you fail to get a crowd, then you must be doing something wrong.....ie....you are failure....you have a problem....etc. . But, hey that is another topic for the board. Maybe I will open it up one day when I have time. Hey DJPray, I don't think anyone had the idea that you agree with me on many things seeing as your name is "DjPray". However, this is the thread to discuss Prayer and what roll it plays in the conversion process. Maybe this can be your shot to defend the doctrine of Faith-only. Or whatever it is that you believe. Since no one else has chosen to voice their opinions.
|
|
djpray
Junior Member
"Filipino" Preacher Man!
Posts: 86
|
Post by djpray on Apr 24, 2009 9:22:49 GMT -5
This might open up a can of worms, but Church of Christ folks do have some good points on the conversion accounts in the Book of Acts. I have been challenged quite a bit by the writings of a Church of Christ guy named Mark Copeland (executableoutlines.com) As far as I can tell, baptism is either mentioned or implied in just about every account of the preaching of the Gospel in Acts. In fact, it seems that in every case of conversion described in detail in the Book of Acts, baptism is mentioned. You don't see people being commanded to "pray and receive Christ" or anything like that, but you do see people being commanded to "repent and be baptized." It would seem almost that an act of faith is initially shown by a person being baptized - not by praying a prayer. More on another time.....
|
|
|
Post by messengermicah on Apr 24, 2009 15:26:26 GMT -5
Who ever said anything about people agreeing with you?
The Holy Ghost comes to lift up Jesus and if Jesus is lifted up then all men will be drawn (John 12:32).
If no one is ever drawn to the preaching then it is evidence the Holy Ghost is not at work.
Does the Holy Ghost repel people away from listening to preaching?
I have found the more people disagree the more they will be drawn to it.
Do you ever have anyone listening to you Jonathan? Do crowds ever gather to listen?
This was never answered.
It is important because we are discussing the Holy Ghost.
The Holy Ghost can be resisted or yielded to but not ignored.
If you are always ignored then it is evidence the Holy Ghost is not in operation.
Someone show me where in the New Testament people were full of the Holy Ghost and no one was ever converted.
Acts 2:47
Acts 5:14
Acts 6:7
Acts 9:31
Acts 11:21
Acts 11:24
Acts 12:24
Acts 19:20
Matthew 28:19-20
1 Thessalonians 1:5-10
Luke 1:15-17
Acts 26:18
Luke 4:14
Was Jesus ignored after He was baptized in the Holy Ghost?
Luke 4:14
|
|
|
Post by jonathandwhitehead on Apr 24, 2009 17:07:32 GMT -5
Oh boy. Your liberal use of scripture gives me a headache. This is not the thread to speak of the Holy Spirit, nor is it the thread to speak of street preaching. In fact, there are specific threads for evangelism. Someone show me where in the New Testament people were full of the Holy Ghost and no one was ever converted. Are you serious? Stephen was full of the Holy Spirit and instead of converting, they stoned him. We're commanded to be filled with the Holy Spirit all the time (Ephesians 5:18) yet you don't convert every person you encounter. (I would also add that you have never converted anyone because you preach error.) If no one is ever drawn to the preaching then it is evidence the Holy Ghost is not at work. So now there has to be a mystical operation on someones heart in order for them to listen to what is being preached. You're such a Calvinist. Are you a Billy Graham fan? (Billy Graham is a false teacher BTW) It is important because we are discussing the Holy Ghost. This thread is entitled "The Sinners Prayer." If you are always ignored then it is evidence the Holy Ghost is not in operation. So if people listen to me, then the Holy Spirit is in operation through me? That's funny because there's a lot of power pastor's on television who draw massive crowds, making merchandise of men. BTW none of them teach the same thing. Since the majority of America listened to President Obama, does that mean the Holy Spirit was operating in him? You're ridiculous. But, if you're willing to question what I believe, I'm willing to defend it. I'm always willing to engage in a civil debate.
|
|