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Post by joemccowan on Apr 16, 2009 14:02:42 GMT -5
Below is a chapter of Justin Martyrs First Apology that accurately depicts the Open View. Given the unreasonable response of various folks using various aliases, I would rather respond to any questions you may have via PM. I'm really not interested in casting pearls, so we will try to keep this off the main board and out of the muck.
Justin Martyr Chapter CXLI.—Free-will in men and angels.
“But that you may not have a pretext for saying that Christ must have been crucified, and that those who transgressed must have been among your nation, and that the matter could not have been otherwise, I said briefly by anticipation, that God, wishing men and angels to follow His will, resolved to create them free to do righteousness; possessing reason, that they may know by whom they are created, and through whom they, not existing formerly, do now exist; and with a law that they should be judged by Him, if they do anything contrary to right reason: and of ourselves we, men and angels, shall be convicted of having acted sinfully, unless we repent beforehand. But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so. So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God: and the Scripture foretells that they shall be blessed, saying, ‘Blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputeth not sin; that is, having repented of his sins, that he may receive remission of them from God; and not as you deceive yourselves, and some others who resemble you in this, who say, that even though they be sinners, but know God, the Lord will not impute sin to them.
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Post by goodtidings on Apr 17, 2009 3:38:52 GMT -5
Joe Mccowan,
Thank you for your response! However, Jesus Chrsit did nothing in secret! He was ever open and forth right about the truths He proclaimed. Praise God for openness!
Are you now saying that the Open Theism should be discussed in "CLOSED" theological circles?
What happened to the Openness of OPEN THEISM (DEISM)?
If your pearls of wisdom are so strong than let's here them, because Open Theism (Deism) has been officially destroyed and is now discredited as worthless man made wisdom that does not represent the Bible or Jesus Christ. It is false thoelogy!
Open Theism (Deism) is dead! It does not make sense, and is illogical! We are not supprised you want to take this doctrine into the secret chambers as it will not bear the test of God's searching truth, THE WORD OF GOD!
Please let no Bible loving Christian shed a tear for this false doctrine!
Goodtidings
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Post by joemccowan on Apr 17, 2009 8:57:51 GMT -5
Joe Mccowan, Thank you for your response! However, Jesus Chrsit did nothing in secret! He was ever open and forth right about the truths He proclaimed. Praise God for openness! Are you now saying that the Open Theism should be discussed in "CLOSED" theological circles? What happened to the Openness of OPEN THEISM (DEISM)? If your pearls of wisdom are so strong than let's here them, because Open Theism (Deism) has been officially destroyed and is now discredited as worthless man made wisdom that does not represent the Bible or Jesus Christ. It is false thoelogy! Open Theism (Deism) is dead! It does not make sense, and is illogical! We are not supprised you want to take this doctrine into the secret chambers as it will not bear the test of God's searching truth, THE WORD OF GOD! Please let no Bible loving Christian shed a tear for this false doctrine! Goodtidings Case and point. Your ignorance is annoying. 1) This post was not a response to you, I started the thread, you didn't. 2) As usual, you did not attempt to respond intelligently to the passage posted and add nothing positive to the conversation. You are wasting peoples time. I have shown Open Theism to be logical, philosophically coherent, historically accurate and scripturally sound. You changed your name and proceeded to ramble on without reason. 3) For you to believe that you have single handedly won the world over to fatalism speaks volumes about your ability to even discuss such matters. 4) I don't come on this board to interact with people who are unwilling to think. This is supposed to be a Christian message board, and this section is supposed to be reserved for Christians wishing to discuss theology. Some folks, such as dmatic, have asked sincere questions. Their posts deserve a response. Your posts do not. If you would stop spamming the board with your nonsense and wait until you have something substantial to say before you speak, a productive conversation would be possible on the forum. If you don't have anything substantial to say, don't speak. Read and learn. Study to show yourself approved. Investigate what you hear, study it, gain the necessary insight to be able to intelligently discuss it.
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Post by debonnaire on Apr 17, 2009 13:24:56 GMT -5
For me, Goodtidings recent posts were a breathe of fresh air. Spaming ? What about the constant and recurrent propaganda for OpenTheism on this board. Joem, you say to Mathew "Read and learn. Study to show yourself approved". And you post quotes from a man who also promoted the Catholic mass ?
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Post by joemccowan on Apr 17, 2009 14:07:35 GMT -5
For me, Goodtidings recent posts were a breathe of fresh air. Spaming ? What about the constant and recurrent propaganda for OpenTheism on this board. Joem, you say to Mathew "Read and learn. Study to show yourself approved". And you post quotes from a man who also promoted the Catholic mass ? I take it that you are referring to a Roman Catholic mass? The Roman Catholic Church departed from orthodoxy 900 years after Justin Martyr lived. What exactly are you referring to? If you are condemning the Eucharist, you are condemning Jesus, the one who instituted it. Partaking of the bread and cup in communion has been the cornerstone of the Christian communion since the Last Supper. To be declared a heretic in the Early Church, meant you were unable to receive communion. If you voluntarily abstain from taking communion, you are voluntarily abstaining from communing with God in partaking of the bread and cup, you are taking on the punishment of a heretic by your own choosing.
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Post by debonnaire on Apr 17, 2009 15:25:40 GMT -5
It is written in The Ante Nicene Fathers, p. 185, chap. LXVI, entitled, " - OF THE EUCHARIST," the prior chapter is entitled, "ADMINISTRATION OF THE SACRAMENTS"
that Justin Martyr taught
And this food is called among us Euvcaristia [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh.
and
At the heart of the Eucharist celebration are the bread and wine that, by the words of Christ and the invocation of the Holy Spirit, become Christ's Body and Blood
See for yourself, wasn't it already departing from the Truth , with 'Babylonian' teaching entering sneakily in the Church ? These guys never really grasped what the Lord supper meant , did they ?
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Post by joemccowan on Apr 17, 2009 17:43:10 GMT -5
It is written in The Ante Nicene Fathers, p. 185, chap. LXVI, entitled, " - OF THE EUCHARIST," the prior chapter is entitled, "ADMINISTRATION OF THE SACRAMENTS" that Justin Martyr taught And this food is called among us Euvcaristia [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. and At the heart of the Eucharist celebration are the bread and wine that, by the words of Christ and the invocation of the Holy Spirit, become Christ's Body and BloodSee for yourself, wasn't it already departing from the Truth , with 'Babylonian' teaching entering sneakily in the Church ? These guys never really grasped what the Lord supper meant , did they ? Luk 22:19 And He took bread, gave thanks and broke [it], and gave [it] to them, saying, "This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me." 20 Likewise He also [took] the cup after supper, saying, "This cup [is] the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you. Which part of that do you believe is departing from the truth? Given that they learned of the Lords Supper from those who were present at the Last Supper, I imagine they had a better handle on it than you do. Jesus also said the bread was His body and the cup was His blood. Does this discredit Jesus? Was He "departing from the Truth , with 'Babylonian' teaching "? Jhn 6:48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world." 52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, "How can this Man give us [His] flesh to eat?" 53 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed, [fn] and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven--not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever." 59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum. 60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard [this], said, "This is a hard saying; who can understand it?" 61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, "Does this offend you? 62 [What] then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and [they] are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father." 66 From that [time] many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also want to go away?" 68 But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 1Cr 11:23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the [same] night in which He was betrayed took bread; 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke [it] and said, "Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me." 25 In the same manner [He] also [took] the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink [it], in remembrance of Me." 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death till He comes. 27 Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks [this] cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. 30 For this reason many [are] weak and sick among you, and many sleep.
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Post by debonnaire on Apr 18, 2009 3:33:16 GMT -5
Read again the words used in the Anti-Nicene text. Yes it is departure from the Truth. It is Transubstantion , practised by the Catholics.
The flesh and the blood of Jesus are not brought to us or in us again and again and again each time we take the bread and the cup.
Taking the Lord's supper is not a magical thing , as practised in the religions of mystery.
Jesus said : you will do this in remembrance of me. And Paul said : each time we take the Lord's supper we announce His death until He comes.
The Lord's supper is remembrance of what He has done at the Cross, where He gave his life for the life of the world, and shed His blood to take away the sin of the world.
He gave His body of flesh so to have a Spiritual body (the Church) purified by His blood and sanctified by His living Word.
So it is good that those who have believed remember again and again what He has done for them. Yes. And discern and love the body of believers He has bought with His own blood. [And repent, if convicted when their life does not match up with the Sacrifice of Jesus].
When we take the bread and cup, it is not that which creates in us His life , it is when by faith we believe what He has done and then follow Jesus and His living Word , that His nature and life becomes our nature and life. Life is in the blood, His life is brought to us by the Holy Spirit by believing Him and His Word. When we take the Lord's supper , turning to Him and what He has done, the Holy Spirit bless us, but we will draw the line here...
Because anyway it is nothing more than that, nothing magic or superstitious as written in this text , and still practised today at the Catholic mass.
The cup and the bread do not transform themselves in Christ 's body and blood, even by prayer. This is an utterly pagan concept.
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Post by joemccowan on Apr 18, 2009 16:14:12 GMT -5
You didn't respond to the words of Jesus;
"Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
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Post by faithbypower on Apr 18, 2009 20:42:37 GMT -5
"Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him -------------
Jesus interpreted this statement for us, so we do not have to question this.
John 6 - V. 63 It is the spirit (Holy Spirit) that quickeneth (that gives us Life); the flesh <-- profiteth --> nothing: the **words** that --> I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Jesus Christ is the Word of God, His Words are life for the Holy Spirit is what gives them the Power and enlightenment (understanding) to performance, His Flesh is His Words, We are to Eat His Words (study) and apply them by Faith by the Power of the Holy Spirit (Eph 3:20). The Blood states we are to have an experience of His Power which is simply victory over sin, and to live without that confessed sin giving Glory to God by doing His Will. Ps 40:8
Jer 15:16 Thy words (flesh) were found, and --> I did eat them <--; and **thy word** (flesh) was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: (mind) for I am called (a witness of performance) by thy name, (Character) O LORD God of hosts.
John 6- V.54 Whoso eateth my flesh, (Word of God) and drinketh my blood, (Physical, applicaton, worked out in the Flesh) hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Note: Jesus is stating unless you are a witness in the flesh, of His Power His Words abiding in you, (His Character) you do not believe are will perish or die in your sins.
The Words have the Spirit (Grace, Heb 10:29) when applied in the Physical actions (by their fruits you will know them) which shows the Work of redemption by Jesus Christ.
John 6:51 *I am* --> the living bread <-- which came down from heaven: if any man *eat of this bread *, --> he shall live for ever: and the **bread** that I will give **is my flesh,** which I will give for the life of the world.
The Bread of Life is the Word of God, just that simple
Proverbs 2 1 My son, if thou wilt *receive my words*, (flesh) and hide my commandments (ps 119:11 - character) with thee; 2 So that thou *incline thine ear* unto wisdom,
(receiving His Words is wisdom) or (His Words in Action)
and *apply* (application, which is faith) thine heart (mind) to understanding; (Willingness by discernment)
3 Yea, if thou criest (Matt 5:3-6) after knowledge, (Hos 4:6) and liftest up thy voice for understanding;
4 If thou seekest her as silver, (scriptures) and searchest (study – searching) for her as for hid treasures; (Doctrines, Deut 32:34)
5 --> Then <-- shalt thou understand the fear (His Voice, Name, Righteousness, His Majesty, Lovingness, kindness, mercy) of the LORD, and find the knowledge (how to apply it, Ps 119:96) of God. 6 For the LORD --> giveth wisdom: out of his mouth (Voice of God) cometh knowledge and understanding.
Prov 2:9 Then shalt thou understand Righteousness and Judgment (discernment), and equity. Equity = prosperity, things that are rightly - evenness
Note: If you apply your mind, an open heart a willinness to listen to His voice (word of God, His Flesh) He will give you the Holy Spirit (Power) to understand the Character of God, and the power to apply it to have ‘His mind in you’.
This is Eating His Flesh, not a ceremonial act which means nothing, but to apply the Word of God in our lives the promise of Power (Grace) to overcome all sin confessed and forsaked and to eternal life.
Complete Character refromation, or sanctification, eating the eucharist does not one of this things, but to trick the mind to thinking we are saved and in a relationship with Jesus, nothing could be further from the truth.
Anybody can eat a Eucharist and act all pious and holy by profession, the outward look. But really how many have the Holy Spirit (His Power) by faith by having complete victory over confessed sins by studying (Have His Wisdom) and applying (are Humble) The Word of God.
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Post by joemccowan on Apr 19, 2009 16:17:27 GMT -5
"Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him ------------- Jesus interpreted this statement for us, so we do not have to question this. John 6 - V. 63 It is the spirit (Holy Spirit) that quickeneth (that gives us Life); the flesh <-- profiteth --> nothing: the **words** that --> I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. Jesus Christ is the Word of God, His Words are life for the Holy Spirit is what gives them the Power and enlightenment (understanding) to performance, His Flesh is His Words, We are to Eat His Words (study) and apply them by Faith by the Power of the Holy Spirit (Eph 3:20). The Blood states we are to have an experience of His Power which is simply victory over sin, and to live without that confessed sin giving Glory to God by doing His Will. Ps 40:8 Jer 15:16 Thy words (flesh) were found, and --> I did eat them <--; and **thy word** (flesh) was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: (mind) for I am called (a witness of performance) by thy name, (Character) O LORD God of hosts. John 6- V.54 Whoso eateth my flesh, (Word of God) and drinketh my blood, (Physical, applicaton, worked out in the Flesh) hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. Note: Jesus is stating unless you are a witness in the flesh, of His Power His Words abiding in you, (His Character) you do not believe are will perish or die in your sins. The Words have the Spirit (Grace, Heb 10:29) when applied in the Physical actions (by their fruits you will know them) which shows the Work of redemption by Jesus Christ. John 6:51 *I am* --> the living bread <-- which came down from heaven: if any man *eat of this bread *, --> he shall live for ever: and the **bread** that I will give **is my flesh,** which I will give for the life of the world. The Bread of Life is the Word of God, just that simple Proverbs 2 1 My son, if thou wilt *receive my words*, (flesh) and hide my commandments (ps 119:11 - character) with thee; 2 So that thou *incline thine ear* unto wisdom, (receiving His Words is wisdom) or (His Words in Action) and *apply* (application, which is faith) thine heart (mind) to understanding; (Willingness by discernment) 3 Yea, if thou criest (Matt 5:3-6) after knowledge, (Hos 4:6) and liftest up thy voice for understanding; 4 If thou seekest her as silver, (scriptures) and searchest (study – searching) for her as for hid treasures; (Doctrines, Deut 32:34) 5 --> Then <-- shalt thou understand the fear (His Voice, Name, Righteousness, His Majesty, Lovingness, kindness, mercy) of the LORD, and find the knowledge (how to apply it, Ps 119:96) of God. 6 For the LORD --> giveth wisdom: out of his mouth (Voice of God) cometh knowledge and understanding. Prov 2:9 Then shalt thou understand Righteousness and Judgment (discernment), and equity. Equity = prosperity, things that are rightly - evenness Note: If you apply your mind, an open heart a willinness to listen to His voice (word of God, His Flesh) He will give you the Holy Spirit (Power) to understand the Character of God, and the power to apply it to have ‘His mind in you’. This is Eating His Flesh, not a ceremonial act which means nothing, but to apply the Word of God in our lives the promise of Power (Grace) to overcome all sin confessed and forsaked and to eternal life. Complete Character refromation, or sanctification, eating the eucharist does not one of this things, but to trick the mind to thinking we are saved and in a relationship with Jesus, nothing could be further from the truth. Anybody can eat a Eucharist and act all pious and holy by profession, the outward look. But really how many have the Holy Spirit (His Power) by faith by having complete victory over confessed sins by studying (Have His Wisdom) and applying (are Humble) The Word of God. Interesting, but none of that has anything to do with the passage I posted. You are inserting something completely foreign to the passage in order to make your interpretation work. Taking verses out of context does answer the question at hand.
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Post by faithbypower on Apr 21, 2009 12:08:47 GMT -5
You are inserting something completely foreign to the passage in order to make your interpretation work ------------
Nothing foreign here, just foreign to you to understand Jesus inserted His own truth to those who hear His Voice.
John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Jesus Explains His own Words
What is the Flesh,
John 1:14 And the **Word** was made --> flesh, and dwelt among us,
So when we eat His Flesh, which is His Word and have a will to humble ourselves to apply which is receiving His Words into our minds (heart) we receive the Holy Spirit of promise to have power to performance. Acts 5:32; Heb 5:9
What then is the Blood
Genesis 9:4 But flesh *with* the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat
Flesh without the blood, which is the river of life, the Holy Spirit the flesh is nothing. We must drink of His experience, live His Life by His power (The Holy Spirit) or a witness (a Testimony) of His Character. Phil 4:9; 1Jn 2:6;1 Pet 2:21;Jn 12:35;Jn 15:10
John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living (the Blood) water.
Which Jesus Explained in verse Jn 6:53 in V. 63
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: **the words** that --> I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are **life.**
A deeper understanding of this is found in 1 Tim 3:16
..was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit
Why? Rom 8:4-5
That the righteousness of the law (Christ) might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Which this teaching was truth in the Old Testiment as well.
Jer 15:16 Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts.
We are to eat His Words, which is His flesh, which if applied we receive power from the Holy Spirit to performance. Which is John 7:17
Which a deeper meaning of His Words are His Doctrines, (teachings) to learn of His Character
Deut 32;1 Give ear, O ye heavens, and *I will speak*; (Word of God) and hear, O earth, the --> words of my mouth.
2 (Which is What?) --> *My doctrine* (His Flesh) shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:
3 Because *I will publish* the name (Character) of the LORD (The Gospel, by a witness): ascribe ye greatness unto our God.
4 He is the Rock, (Jesus, Ex 24:10) his work (His Salvation) is perfect: (Ps 18:30;19:7) for all his ways are judgment:(Mal 3:16-18) a God of truth (Ps 119:142,151) and without iniquity, just and right is he.
A true witness, witnesses the true Gospel so that the doctrine of God is not blasphemed, 1 Tim 6:1
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Post by debonnaire on Apr 21, 2009 14:51:26 GMT -5
Amen, faithbypower i agree.
Praise to the Lord who has regenerated us not with corruptible seed but with the the word of God, which lives and abides for ever, and redeemed us not with corruptible things from our vain conversation received by tradition from our fathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. [1 Peter 1] and He saved us according to His mercy , through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit [Titus 3] That's what we want to celebrate, every now and then. All is from Him , by Him , and His glory remains forever.
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Post by joemccowan on Apr 21, 2009 19:40:49 GMT -5
By your reasoning, we can then interchange Word with flesh at will also. Since the word was made flesh, eating the word would also mean eating the flesh, correct? That is a circular argument. If Jesus is the Word and we are told to eat the Word and the Word became flesh, you are back at square one. When Jesus raised the bread, He said this is my flesh, not my word. When He raised the cup, He said this is my blood.
The early church, along with the Apostles, testified of the Eucharist as being the central act of worship and communion with God. Unless you are going to completely ignore the testimony of the Church for 2000yrs, the Apostles, the Fathers and Jesus Himself, you can't pretend that the Eucharist is a mere ceremony.
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Post by faithbypower on Apr 21, 2009 20:06:28 GMT -5
The Word of God is not reasoning when it answers itself, just traditions which blind the mind to truth which think pious religious service is righteousness.
The reasoning we do is surrender self and humble our pride, making God Not our servant, to the whims of the unconverted mind.
Faithful Christians follow the Bible, which is Jesus Christ the Word made FLESH, not traditions of Apostle (catholic system made up) which change the Word of God to none effect.
Paul never made any tradition which cannot be backed up by the Inspired Word of God in the King James Bible, not the false translations of Rome called the NIV which is a Jesuit Bible to bring people back to Roman catholic church.
Catholism and its traditons is not chrisitanity, and is a cult, for it is nothing more that paganism of Roman empire which came from Greece from Medo Persion empire of Mithraism. Sun worship
It teachings have infiltrated all levels of Christiandom today, they do not have to be called catholic to have its teachings in it. Just its doctrines.
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Post by steve spidell on Apr 21, 2009 23:01:11 GMT -5
Sorry i'm butting in guys, but this is interesting.
The topic started out as open theism and now is about the Eucharist, lol
I'm just curious Joe, can you define the Eucharist?
Do yo believe that the bread actually turns into Jesus' body?
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Post by joemccowan on Apr 22, 2009 8:00:28 GMT -5
The Word of God is not reasoning when it answers itself, just traditions which blind the mind to truth which think pious religious service is righteousness. The reasoning we do is surrender self and humble our pride, making God Not our servant, to the whims of the unconverted mind. Faithful Christians follow the Bible, which is Jesus Christ the Word made FLESH, not traditions of Apostle (catholic system made up) which change the Word of God to none effect. Paul never made any tradition which cannot be backed up by the Inspired Word of God in the King James Bible, not the false translations of Rome called the NIV which is a Jesuit Bible to bring people back to Roman catholic church. Catholism and its traditons is not chrisitanity, and is a cult, for it is nothing more that paganism of Roman empire which came from Greece from Medo Persion empire of Mithraism. Sun worship It teachings have infiltrated all levels of Christiandom today, they do not have to be called catholic to have its teachings in it. Just its doctrines. First of all, it seems you have very limited knowledge of Church History. You are equating the first 1500 years with the present day Roman Catholic Church. You then go on to write off the Early Church which consists of the people who decided what our Bibles would contain, preserved the books and passed them on to us. The Roman Catholic Church is the Latin strand of Christianity that Protestants come from. The American Protestant movement is little more than a Roman Catholic schism. The entire Church did not accept the infallibility claims of the pope and those that didn't were never part of what we call the Roman Catholic Church. The Orthodox Church is the Eastern strand of the Church and separated from what we call the RCC in 1054. Prior to this time, they were already operating as a separate entity. They, like the Early Church, hold the Eucharist as a central part of Church life and the Christian experience. They understand that God sent His Son, in real flesh, and His Son shed His real blood, in order to redeem us from death, sin and hell. God didn't send just His word, He sent the Word in the Flesh. Saying that the Eucharist is not representative of the real flesh and blood of Jesus is like saying Jesus did not come in flesh and blood. By your logic, the incarnation wasn't even necessary and God could had just sent some more scripture or words from heaven. Jhn 5:39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. As far as the translations rant, the Greek Orthodox read directly from the Septuagint and from the Greek manuscripts as they have for 2000yrs, so I don't think a new English translation has had any bearing on their position. Steve, I agree with the Orthodox that the Eucharist is a mystery. The bread is the Body of Christ because Jesus said it is. The cup contains the blood of Christ because Jesus said it does. This has nothing to do with transubstantiation, it just has to do with perception/sanctification. To us, it is the body and blood of Christ, because it is such to Jesus. The elements are not holy in and of themselves, nor do they need to become another type of element to be holy. They are holy because God makes them holy. Such is the reason the Church has historically invoked the transformation of the elements; not to change their physical composition, but to ask God to set them apart and make them holy. This is the teaching of scripture and the witness of the Early Church, long before Roman Catholics or Protestants. I'm not a fan of Roman Catholicism. I believe they left Orthodoxy 1000yrs ago. I am also not a fan of reinventing the Christian faith as a protestant splinter of the Roman Catholic Church. Beyond the Charismatic movement, the Reformation and the Roman Catholic Church lies a purer expression of our faith; the Early Church. The Orthodox Church holds the remnant of the Eastern Church and the traditions of the Early Church. They have collected some baggage along the way, but they have wisely decided to abstain from reinventing Christianity every generation or two like Protestants. They have abstained from granting a patriarch power over the Church and declaring him infallible like Roman Catholic Church. The Orthodox understand that the Church consists of the saints of old as well as the present faithful. We would do well to learn our history and make the proper connections to the Early Church as well. Blessings, Joe
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Post by steve spidell on Apr 22, 2009 8:22:50 GMT -5
Thanks Joe, that makes sense.
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Post by Kerrigan on Apr 22, 2009 9:47:46 GMT -5
Amen Joe, well said...
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Post by faithbypower on Apr 22, 2009 20:41:00 GMT -5
First of all, it seems you have very limited knowledge of Church History ----------
Praise God, nothing wrong in studying The History of the Church, but if church history (traditions) rules as God in His Place, (Teaching false Doctrines) I thankful I will have nothing to do with it.
The Word of God is the authority found in english in the KJB, not history of many unconverted souls! As they have changed the Word of God to bring us back to Rome. You may not be found of Rome, but it is found of you.
And then Joe the opposite is true, sad you appear to know so little of God's Truth to obey His Voice in all religious matters.
The so called Church is not the Word of God or does it have the right to rule the conscience in the matters of faith.
The Church finds it orders From God to do what:
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; (missionaries) and some, prophets; (Bible Prophets Today & teach Daniel and Revelations) and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
(God's church has the 5 fold ministry) Why?
12 --> For the perfecting of the saints, (Eating God's Word, not Eucharist) for the work of the ministry, for the edifying (Not ruling) of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the **fulness** (walking without sin) of Christ:
The Perfect man is complete victory over Sin thought faith in Christ, which is the fulness of Christ. The Lord came to give power to save sinners and to give power to walk without sin before He Comes.
Church false doctrine keeps people in sin and not to prepare themselves for eternity with Christ.
For the only Sin Forgiven is the one Forsaken (given up) in Christ.
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Post by debonnaire on Apr 23, 2009 6:59:20 GMT -5
I agree with the Orthodox that the Eucharist is a mystery. The bread is the Body of Christ because Jesus said it is. The cup contains the blood of Christ because Jesus said it does. This has nothing to do with transubstantiation, it just has to do with perception/sanctification. To us, it is the body and blood of Christ, because it is such to Jesus. The elements are not holy in and of themselves, nor do they need to become another type of element to be holy. They are holy because God makes them holy. Such is the reason the Church has historically invoked the transformation of the elements; not to change their physical composition, but to ask God to set them apart and make them holy. This is the teaching of scripture and the witness of the Early Church, long before Roman Catholics or Protestants. The fact that you are saying that the eucharist is a MYSTERY , is very telling that you don’t know what it really is. NOWHERE in the Scriptures, it is said that the taking of the bread and cup is a mystery. There is quite a few ‘mysteries’ throughout the New Testament, which now are (or should be) revealed to the saints. The mystery of how the dead will resurrect , the mystery of the hardening of Israel, the mystery of the Gospel announced to the Gentiles, the mystery of Christ in you for those who have believed, etc….all these are now revealed to those who have believed in Jesus and him crucified. The only mysteries that are left for the believers are eschatological, with the Return of Jesus-Christ and how the kingdoms of this world will pass to the kingdom of Christ, for we don't know all the details of that But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. [Revelation 10:7] Except for the coming events, all the rest can be explained/revealed. NOWHERE IN THE SCRIPTURES, IT IS SAID THAT THE TAKING OF THE BREAD AND CUP IS A MYSTERY. In LUKE 22 , Jesus explained to the disciples that this has to do with the New Covenant For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God. And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves: For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come. And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. It was necessary that Jesus died , for where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. [Hebrew 9:16-17] Jesus had to died , giving His flesh and blood , so that men who believe in the glorious Gospel may enter in this New Covenant It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. [1 Corinthian 15:44-46] JESUS has become for those who believe a quickening Spirit, that is what He said in Luke 22 When he said “I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come”.The kingdom of God has already came in Spirit for those who have believed. The kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit [Romans 14] He said, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He takes away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. [Hebrews 10:9-10] WE ARE SANCTIFIED BY ONLY ONE SACRIFICE. THE Sacrifice at Golgotha where the prince of Gloryy and of our salvation has given His life, flesh and blood, for the believers to enter His kingdom.So how do some say that the chruch invoke the transformation of the elements , so that God make them holy ? AS IF THE SACRIFICE of JESUS WAS NOT HOLY ? What is this Cult, invokation and all , when Jesus only said that the disciples will take the Bread and Cup in remembrance of His Sacrifice ? But I fear that some have still a veil before their eyes, not seeing that The Veil of separation between the Presence of God and the believer has been torn asunder, and we have a living access to and through Him. Why People are adding practises and beliefs to what the Word of God say , thus muddying the waters of what has ALREADY been accomplished ? Do believers have to make rituals and take comfort in the traditions of men , to feel they are in the Truth ? You say This has nothing to do with transubstantiation But Justin, just like the Catholics after, believed it was. so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh At the heart of the Eucharist celebration are the bread and wine that, by the words of Christ and the invocation of the Holy Spirit, become Christ's Body and Blood These doctrines are utter rubbish. Justin said that our flesh and blood by transmutation are nourished . What a rubbish ! Fristly Jesus has not come for our flesh and blood !!!!!! Those who are called the "church fathers" have fought against the gnostics etc… , but it is not because they were Christians that their doctrines can be trusted. Don’t follow men , follow the Word of God, open your understanding to what Jesus has made. We are supposed to be ministers of the New Covenant ; not of the letter, but of the Spirit [2 Corinthians 3:6] Brethren , the next time you take the bread and the cup, do it considering the great Sacrifice of our Lord. Do it by faith in the grace of God , not by beliefs that profit not.
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Post by joemccowan on Apr 23, 2009 8:45:27 GMT -5
I doubt you have ever read the King James translation. What you refer to as the KJB has changed many times over the years. It originally had the Deutero-canonical books and didn't resemble what you have today until about 175yrs ago. The OT was based on the Masoretic text which was the Hebrew NIV of their day. While denying that the Eucharist has any place in the Church and claiming that the Early Church was comprised of heretics you claim a translation that didn't exist in it's current form until a few generations ago is the only thing keeping the faith alive? That's really ridiculous. I don't care if you read from a KJV, but the KJVO dogma and corresponding doctrinal positions are a reinvention of the faith, not a continuation of it. The Bible outside the context of the Church, is just a book. It's very existence today has to do with the faithfulness of the Church to pass it on to us.
So now the Church is not the Body of Christ? God is redeeming the Church. If you find yourself outside the Church, you are yet in your sins. The Church is comprised of the saints of old along with the present faithful. If you are completely at odds with the saints of old, you are not functioning as a member of the Body.
A mystery in the Bible is an open secret. In other words, it is something that insiders understand and outsiders don't. Insiders understood the Eucharist to be a time where we commune with God and the Church as a hole. Outsiders didn't get it. They still don't.
JESUS said;
Luk 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake [it], and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. 20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup [is] the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
This was JESUS speaking. He said the Bread was His Body. He said the Cup contained His Blood.
Again;
Mat 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed [it], and brake [it], and gave [it] to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. 27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave [it] to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; 28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
And Again;
Mar 14:22 And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake [it], and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body. 23 And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave [it] to them: and they all drank of it. 24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.
And then we have the words of Paul;
1Cr 11:25 After the same manner also [he took] the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink [it], in remembrance of me. 26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come. 27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink [this] cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of [that] bread, and drink of [that] cup. 29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. 30 For this cause many [are] weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
Now either Jesus knows what the Bread and Cup are or He doesn't. Either Paul knows what the Bread and Cup are or He doesn't. Paul hardly paints a picture of the Lord's Supper being a mere "tradition of men". Either Jesus and Paul spoke correctly or they are being corrected by Protestants 2000yrs after they spoke these words.
This is a gnostic concept. Jesus came to redeem creation, including Flesh and Blood. That is the purpose of the resurrection. Salvation isn't about getting people into Heaven to play harps and eat grapes, it is about redeeming creation; this includes redeeming our bodies. He wants to redeem all of us, not just a piece of us.
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Post by debonnaire on Apr 23, 2009 13:07:44 GMT -5
Funny how people call gnostic everything that they do not understand.
trying to minister the New Covenant but with the letter only , and not according to the Spirit.
Tell me, how and when did Jesus came for your flesh and blood ?
At the new birth, the Holy Spirit came to dwell in our spirit, right ? And the Lord purifies our heart and conscience by the Spirit and the blood, right ? And what he wants after that, is that we attain sanctification by obeying His commandments, so that our soul be redeemed , for it is only our spirit which is saved at conversion, our soul (will, intelligence, emotions, imagination) has to be redeemed as well, and it takes faith and perseverence.
So WHY JUSTIN MARTYR DID NOT PREACH THAT ? ...
... but preach that the Lord has come for our flesh and blood !
Oh , and the bread and the cup have little to do with our own resurrection in the first place, but with the Sacrifice of Jesus.
Did Jesus told to his disciples to pray over the bread and the cup, so that something happens ?
Do you see the ridicule of that ?
Why praying that God makes holy what is already holy ? Either believers believe in the perfect sacrifice of Jesus and when they take the bread and cup remembering what He has done, it is a spiritual blessing ; for those who believe have entered beyond the veil. The veil of separation between God and man through a NEW and LIVING and HOLY WAY (Jesus' flesh and blood) is NO MORE ! But people who add stuff , or prayer so that the bread and cup become holy don't even understand what they are doing.
If a man beleive that the Lord has come for his flesh and blood, you know what ? : This man is the Gnostic ! Because there is nothing evil in my body and blood. Ask Jesse , he will agree.
Sure God can bless our body and heal diseases, and He will resurrect the body incorruptible at the last day , but if we preach that taking the bread and the Cup is for our flesh and blood, it is a foolish heresy.
May God gives you wisdom and revelation.
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Post by joemccowan on Apr 23, 2009 17:17:10 GMT -5
Gnostics believed that material things (like flesh) were evil and unredeemable. God created flesh and the material world, not inherently evil, but good. He is in the process of redeeming both the material and immaterial, contrary to gnostic musings.
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Post by debonnaire on Apr 24, 2009 0:08:04 GMT -5
Gnostics believed that material things (like flesh) were evil and unredeemable. God created flesh and the material world, not inherently evil, but good. I agree He is in the process of redeeming both the material and immaterial, contrary to gnostic musings. Yes. It won't start before His 2nd coming though. The Creation awaits the manifestation of the sons of God, when they shall have their heavenly bodies. At the Coming of the Lord/Resurrection/Rapture God bless,
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Post by dmatic on Apr 28, 2009 9:48:45 GMT -5
joe, you wrote... Hopefully, those who wished to argue, for its sake, have been diverted by now... I would like to discuss this openly, if possible, so that those who do wish to contribute to our, hopefully, ever increasing true knowledge of God, may do so. If it doesn't work to simply ignore the posts of those who really don't have much to say, then I'll pm you my questions, if it be God's will. I was thinking this morning about prayer again. Does prayer have the possibility of "changing things", or not? Obviously, we are not smarter than God, nor are we, through prayer, trying to tell Him what to do. Prayer, by defintion, is a petition, or asking....not necessarily for our will to be done, (for indeed, that may be a foolish prayer), but rather for the grace to understand, and, if possible, for things to change! Jesus, Himself, prayed thusly....that, if possible, there would be another way, than the one the Father had "ordained"...yet, He showed that He was willing to do it His way, when He said, "Yet, not my will, but Thine be done!" The examples in scripture that seem to show that God does listen to prayer, and even may change His "mind", if He wills, are very very interesting! Anyway, if any of those places is a good place to start, please feel free to dialog. I am interested in knowing truth, and growing in true knowledge of God, so any thoughts that may direct me to greater understanding would be appreciated. Mr. Martyr wrote: I'm not sure that he is right here. My wife and I read Jesus' comments about the father of lies being a murderer "from the beginning" just this morning! This tells me that God probably created him to be that way! God has purpose for the evil He does create! Anyway... peace, dmatic
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Post by joemccowan on May 1, 2009 10:21:13 GMT -5
I think you are confusing terms. Evil, in the sense of consequence, was instituted by God. Evil, in the sense of acting contrary to God's will (sin), was not instituted by God. For evil, in the latter sense (sin), to be instituted by God, evil (sin) would be acting in accordance with God's will, not contrary to it. In other words, there would be no such thing as evil (sin), or anything contrary to God's will. If this were the case, the former sense of evil, consequence, would be purely arbitrary as the Calvinists assume. Not all evil (distress, trouble) is sinful, but all sin is evil (distressful, troublesome). This is why there is a different term for sin and evil in Hebrew and Greek. The Hebrew word for evil is never translated as sin;
rah — evil 442, wickedness 59, wicked 25, mischief 21, hurt 20, bad 13, trouble 10, sore 9, affliction 6, ill 5, adversity 4, favoured 3, harm 3, naught 3, noisome 2, grievous 2, sad 2, misc 34
The Greek word for evil is never translated as sin either;
po-nâ-ro's - evil 51, wicked 10, wicked one 6, evil things 2, misc 7
We mistakingly equate evil with sin, but that is a product of our language and culture, not the language of the Scriptures or the Early Church.
From the beginning, simply means from the start, not "prior to creation based upon God's unchangeable decree" as some proponents of fatalism have contended.
In this verse; Mar 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation, God 'made them male and female. - we don't assume that God made male and female at the exact same time because we know that God made man first. We don't assume that man and woman were the first things God created either, we understand that He is just talking about from the beginning, as in early on in creation. We are given context in Genesis and understand the verse in Mark by keeping it in that context. The same principle applies to the verse you quoted, only we get the context from Genesis and Ezekiel.
Gen 1:31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed [it was] very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
and for the origin of Satan's sin;
Eze 28:14 "You [were] the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones. 15 You [were] perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you. 16 "By the abundance of your trading You became filled with violence within, And you sinned; Therefore I cast you as a profane thing Out of the mountain of God; And I destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the fiery stones.
Satan was perfect until iniquity was found in him.
Eze 28:17 "Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor; I cast you to the ground, I laid you before kings, That they might gaze at you. 18 "You defiled your sanctuaries By the multitude of your iniquities, By the iniquity of your trading; Therefore I brought fire from your midst; It devoured you, And I turned you to ashes upon the earth In the sight of all who saw you. 19 All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you; You have become a horror, And [shall be] no more forever." ' " Justin rightly concluded that there is such a thing as reprobation and that Satan, fallen angels and unrepentant people who do not fear God are in that category. They are condemned because of the choices they have made, not by God's eternal decree. The evil or punishment that they will face is brought upon them by God, but their sin is there own and was not originated by God.
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Post by dmatic on May 1, 2009 11:50:34 GMT -5
You're certainly giving me much to think about joe!
Regarding evil and the adversary's origins.....I'm not convinced that Ez. 28 is speaking of "the devil", but rather the ruler of Tyre? I'll do some more research though.
When God put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil within the garden, had "evil" been created yet? Just asking....
As for using "evil" as consequence for sin....if the evil ("bad" things) is given by God to return us to the right path, then it could be said that the "evil" was actually good! Indeed, my affliction for my sin was good for me, because it caused me to seek God.
I do believe that God created evil. But for His good purpose. How else would people learn how to love enemies if there were none?
I gotta go for now, but will ponder your words. Thanks friend!
Peace, dmatic
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Post by joemccowan on May 2, 2009 20:30:48 GMT -5
Fallen angels in general all began as angels of light;
Jud 1:6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;
Ezekiel makes a comparison between the King of Tyre and Lucifer, the fallen angel.
Then you still have the law of first mention in Genesis claiming all that God made was good.
Of course, I also rely heavily on Early Church writings when studying the origin of Satan.
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Post by dmatic on May 4, 2009 14:28:56 GMT -5
joe, wrote:
Are you referring to the sons of God who mated with the daughters of men? Having left their rightful domain, or habitation in the spirit and invaded physical bodies?
Do you have scripture to back up this statement?:
Where did darkness come from? Was it here before the light that God first created?
I don't remember reading that the term "the fallen angel" is within that book, but I'll try to re-check it.
Does this include the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? Was the tree of the knowedge of good and evil good? Where was the evil? Why wouldn't it simply be referred to as the tree of the knowledge of good?
I'm not sure that that is wise. depends on how early you're talking about, I suppose. Paul said that immediately after he was gaone that wolves would enter and introduce deceiving doctrines of demons and heresies etc.
Peace, dmatic
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