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Post by Jesse Morrell on Apr 30, 2009 10:22:20 GMT -5
This is a questioneer to attend a Ray Comfort evangelism trainning, To bad his ministry has taken this position. Do you deny... 1) ... the belief system known as Moral Government Theology (A theological error that maintains that God is not immutable but changes His mind, that He does not exercise sovereign control over earthly matters, that He does not know all future events - particularly the free-will choices of individuals, etc.. It denies that the atonement pays for our sins, denies Jesus’ substitutionary death, and denies the imputed righteousness of Christ to the believer. It asserts that people are capable of keeping the whole Law of God, that there is no depravity of human nature, and that salvation is up to a person’s free will choice.) Yes No 2) ... the doctrine known as Sinless Perfectionism (the belief that Christians can attain or have attained a state of completed sanctification or moral perfection in this earthly life) Yes No 3) ... the doctrine of known as Open Theism (the belief, in part, that God does not have exhaustive foreknowledge of the future) 6) ... the requirement of speaking in tongues as evidence of authentic salvation (this does not pertain to whether or not this particular gift of the Spirit is available to and/or active among Christians today) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- www.ambassadorsalliance.com/app_associate.shtml
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Post by Jeffrey Olver on Apr 30, 2009 10:45:27 GMT -5
Oh man. That is sad. I think someone may have stirred the pot up a little?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Apr 30, 2009 10:58:03 GMT -5
It seems we really have stirred things up. There are only a few groups I can think of that are very public about these beleifs. But this will help bring more attention to these questions.
This part really stood out:
A lot of people beleive that. They are really going to isolate themselves. Only Calvinists don't beleive that, so I guess only Cavinists can go to these events.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Apr 30, 2009 11:00:39 GMT -5
Their explaination of mg theology is not even accurate. We do beleive in substitution and depravity.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Apr 30, 2009 11:09:43 GMT -5
I will write a public responce to this in my facebook.
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Post by Jeffrey Olver on Apr 30, 2009 11:57:03 GMT -5
Well... I'm trying to remain optimistic in that if you answer yes to some of those, it won't bar you from attending the event.
Perhaps they know that there are many who don't understand or even oppose those views and just trying to see what beliefs will be represented?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Apr 30, 2009 12:08:46 GMT -5
They equate moral government and open theism with baptismal regeneration, purgatory, and annihilationism!
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Post by steve spidell on Apr 30, 2009 16:13:15 GMT -5
I think those questions are fairly new, too.
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Post by tonyholland on Apr 30, 2009 21:19:17 GMT -5
Mixed feelings on this.....
One one hand, I could see Ray not wanting to people to attend that are going to take the focus away of evangelism training by spending a lot of time talking about open theism/Sinless perfection, etc. I think a better question would have been, "if you believe in these things, can you keep it to yourself during the program.
I'm kind of baffled on the speaking in tounges things though. I don't personally believe it is for today, but I do have some dear Brothers that do, and while we have had some good conversations, it is has never been anything that would ever come between us.
Jesse, I agree with you about the quote concerning free will and salvation. I personally believe that a person must make a choice to be saved. The Cross was a gift and one can choose to either accept or decline a gift. I think that the Holy Spirit works in attracting a person to the Lord (don't think I said that very well, but you get what I mean) but its still up to the person.
I do question why you feel the need to "respond" to the questions. Were you planning on attending the training? Its clear that the questions could have just been combined into, "What are your doctrinal beliefs?" but it may be a simple matter of wanting to identify the position of those who are coming which could be followed by making sure that people attending understand that the class/retreat/whatever it is, will be for evangelism training and doctrine will not be discussed. Might want to give them the benefit of the doubt first time around.
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on May 1, 2009 8:59:22 GMT -5
What is with the religious world and tolerating divisions? Though, Ray Comfort is wrong in 90% of his doctrinal beliefs, at least he's dividing what he sees to be the truth from error.
We are commanded in the scriptures to mark out those who cause division and have no fellowship with them.
I want to see scriptural justification for doctrinal divisions. (That is, doctrinal difference being permissable.)
At least someone in this nation is standing up for doctrinal unity. It's just too bad that it has to be those who have divided themselves from the truth. Moreover - Why would anyone be offended that they cannot attend this meeting if they doctrinally disagree with Ray Comfort? Why would anyone want to attend this meeting if they doctrinally disagree with Ray Comfort?
Have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on May 1, 2009 10:28:12 GMT -5
If these things would keep someone from an event, the following people would not be allowed:
- John Wesley: he believed in free will and perfection - Charles Finney: he believed in free will, perfection, moral government - William Booth: he believed in free will and perfection - Catherine Booth: she believed in moral government and mg atonement - Duncan Campbell: he believed in perfection - Leonard Ravenhill: he believed in free will, perfection, and mg atonement - A. W. Tozer: he believed in free will, perfection, and did not believe in the "payment" atonement
Don't forget the Early Church Fathers who taught free will and perfection as well.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on May 1, 2009 10:35:03 GMT -5
Only because it misrepresents Moral Government. For example, we do believe that God controls many earthly events, that Jesus did die as our substitute, and that human nature does have depravities.
If I respond, it would be like this:
- Quote what they wrote - Write an explaination or clarification - Present Scriptures in Support - Quote from Early Church and Theologians on that particular point
If I respond, it will be very thorough, scholarly, and intelligent. It won't be just a "heated emotional" reaction type of a response.
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on May 1, 2009 10:37:20 GMT -5
If these things would keep someone from an event, the following people would not be allowed: - John Wesley: he believed in free will and perfection - Charles Finney: he believed in free will, perfection, moral government - William Booth: he believed in free will and perfection - Catherine Booth: she believed in moral government and mg atonement - Duncan Campbell: he believed in perfection - Leonard Ravenhill: he believed in free will, perfection, and mg atonement - A. W. Tozer: he believed in free will, perfection, and did not believe in the "payment" atonement Don't forget the Early Church Fathers who taught free will and perfection as well. I didn't say I agreed with his doctrinal views. It's refreshing seeing someone taking a stand against doctrinal divisions.
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Post by tonyholland on May 1, 2009 14:12:16 GMT -5
Only because it misrepresents Moral Government. For example, we do believe that God controls many earthly events, that Jesus did die as our substitute, and that human nature does have depravities. If I respond, it would be like this: - Quote what they wrote - Write an explaination or clarification - Present Scriptures in Support - Quote from Early Church and Theologians on that particular point If I respond, it will be very thorough, scholarly, and intelligent. It won't be just a "heated emotional" reaction type of a response. My apologies.....I thought you meant that you were going to respond to the fact that they are asking these questions on their application. I misunderstood.
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Post by debonnaire on May 2, 2009 12:27:56 GMT -5
Seems that Ray Comfort has sound theology.
The part with the tongues is weird though, as not all born again Christians has this gift.
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