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Post by Jesse Morrell on May 1, 2009 11:02:04 GMT -5
When Adam and Eve sinned, God no doubt had failed expectations. God expressed disappointment over sin: Genesis 6:5-6 Disappointment arrises from failed expectations. Failed expectations requires contingent possibilities. God had expectations upon man to obey. God was disappointed when man did not obey. By giving man a free will, their loyalty was not certain but contingent. Therefore God created beings that were capable of dissappointing His expectations.
God "miscalculated the outcome" in his dealings with Israel. God expected grapes from His vineyard but instead they gave Him wild grapes. God did all that He could to make sure it gave Him grapes. But despite His hard work and His expectations, He did not get the outcome He was aiming at.
"And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes. And now, O inhabitances of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt me and my vineyard. What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? Wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?" Isaiah 5:2-4
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Post by dmatic on May 1, 2009 11:55:55 GMT -5
Jesse wrote:
Actually, God has prophesied and spoken that man will obey. This will happen, in His time.
Do you think that God did not know that Adam and Eve would transgress?
Peace, dmatic
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Post by Jesse Morrell on May 1, 2009 20:09:05 GMT -5
God knew it was possible, because of free will. But God tried to influence them not to disobey, which is why He gave them a warning. Why else would He give them a warning, unless their disobedience was only a possibility but not a certainty?
Or why would God repent of making mankind because they were sinning (Gen. 6:5-6) if He knew they were going to sin when He created them?
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Post by dmatic on May 4, 2009 14:31:09 GMT -5
Are you suggesting that He should have just tried harder?
Peace, dmatic
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Post by Jesse Morrell on May 5, 2009 11:52:22 GMT -5
I don't believe God needed to "try harder". He gave Adam and Eve all the influence that they needed to obey. Their disobedience is their own fault.
The purpose of a warning is to influence behavior. Punishments and consequences are declared in order to secure obedience to the precept. God warns of punishments for disobedience and He promises rewards for obedience.
In the Garden, God warned that if they ate they would die. To what purpose was this warning if it wasn't to influence their behavior? If God wanted them to sin, why warn them? If God knew their disobedience was already certain, why warn them? Their disobedience was not His plan neither was it something that He foreknew from all of eternity. Their disobedience was a genuine contingency, and God tried to influence them to avoid it.
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Post by dmatic on May 7, 2009 14:49:05 GMT -5
you wrote:
Of course, you make good arguments Jesse, but it seems that you think that God "tried" to influence them, but failed.
It may not make sense to us that God would "create" evil, but He claims to have done so. If that is the case, then He obviously has a purpose for it.
God does not shirk the responsibility to correct the problem, since He could have kept that ol' devil out of the Garden by putting up a fence so high that he couldn't have snuck in, but He didn't. He must have a plan to redeem His whole creation, since His law describes it!
You have noticed, no doubt, that immediately after being baptized, Jesus was led into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil, by the Holy Spirit! Why would the Holy Spirit do such a thing? We even pray that he lead us NOT into temptation....but with the "second Adam", He led Him into the temptation.
Thankfully, Jesus overcame, as we will...eventually!
Peace, dmatic
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Post by Jesse Morrell on May 7, 2009 21:42:05 GMT -5
God allowed Adam to be tempted by the devil for the same reason that God allowed Jesus to be tempted by the devil, so that they could overcome.
God wanted Adam to have an opportunity to genuinely obey Him, to form good moral character.
Also, the Bible does not say that God created "evil" in the sense of "sin", but rather that God creates "evil" in the sense of "calamity". Punishment is considered an "evil", because punishment is pain. Pain is mental misery. Mental misery is an "evil". God punishes sin with pain. God is not the author of sin, but God does create calamities when necessary. But it also says that God repents of the "evil" when sinners repent of their sins.
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Post by dmatic on May 8, 2009 11:02:13 GMT -5
So, the first "Adam" was "destined" to fail, because he was of the earth, earthy, but the second Adam was to succeed, because He is of the Spirit!
Neither probably "happened" by "chance", but was designed by God, according to His plan.
OK?
Peace, dmatic
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Post by Jesse Morrell on May 8, 2009 11:09:19 GMT -5
The first Adam sinned by his free will: that is why God warned him a head of time.
The second Adam obeyed by his free will: that is why he said no man takes his life but he lays it down.
The first Adam could have obeyed God: that is why God warned him and then punished him
The second Adam could have disobeyed God: that is why he was tempted by the devil
Both obedience and disobedience are free will choices. Both Adam and Jesus had free will.
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Post by dmatic on May 8, 2009 11:26:27 GMT -5
They are, by God's design, wonderful examples for us as to what to do and not do aren't they? One wonders why Jesus didn't come first? Peace, dmatic
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Post by jackjackson on Jun 30, 2009 14:52:13 GMT -5
Could it be that God had another audience to these events, namely the angels? Rememeber one of His top angels rebelled and took 1/3 of the rest with them.
Could this have been an object lesson to them to show them their rebellion was not justified? To show them that free will being can actually choose to love and obey Him, and even ask His help to help them obey and love Him?
Just a thought.
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