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Post by logic on Jul 30, 2009 17:01:51 GMT -5
As for me and my house, I will serve the Lord with MMIs Not in the name of the Lord. Yep: Eph 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the LordI can do this with MMIs Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. 17: And whatsoever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father by him.I will use MMIs in deed in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father by him.
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Jul 30, 2009 17:08:39 GMT -5
Not in the name of the Lord. Yep: Eph 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the LordI can do this with MMIs Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. 17: And whatsoever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father by him.I will use MMIs in deed in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father by him. You cannot speak with an instrument You cannot admonish or build up someone with an instrument. In order to admonish and build up a person you must speak the words of Christ. Sir, you can pretend that you're worshiping God all you want but God has not authorized the use of MMI's and you can't show me where He has. Shame on you because as the Pharisees, you are teaching for doctrines the commandments of men and making your worship toward God in vain.
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Post by steve spidell on Jul 30, 2009 17:32:28 GMT -5
It seems that you left out part of Eph. 5:19, it's psalms which means: G5568 ψαλμός psalmos psal-mos' From G5567; a set piece of music, that is, a sacred ode (accompanied with the voice, harp or other instrument; a “psalm”); collectively the book of the Psalms: - psalm. Compare G5603. So, there ya go, at least one example. The passage authorizes the form of Instrument to be used. Thus Mechanical Musical Instruments are purposely left out and unauthorized. Singing and making melody in your hearts.This is your own definition: To define the term "Mechanical Musical Instruments." --
"Mechancial" in the sense that this has been created by man.
"Musical" in the sense that this thing created by man is used for music, noise, sound, etc.
"Instrument" A tool to be used.
A harp is an instrument made by man, but this passage commands us to use a harp to sing along with. Or are you saying we can't even sing, because this passage says "in your hearts"?
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Jul 31, 2009 5:51:51 GMT -5
The passage authorizes the form of Instrument to be used. Thus Mechanical Musical Instruments are purposely left out and unauthorized. Singing and making melody in your hearts.This is your own definition: To define the term "Mechanical Musical Instruments." --
"Mechancial" in the sense that this has been created by man.
"Musical" in the sense that this thing created by man is used for music, noise, sound, etc.
"Instrument" A tool to be used.
A harp is an instrument made by man, but this passage commands us to use a harp to sing along with. Or are you saying we can't even sing, because this passage says "in your hearts"? Sir, the definition you posted doesn't even agree with you. The definition says "Harp OR OTHER MUSICAL INSTRUMENT". As I said before, the musical instrument used to make melody is the one that God created. The heart. Thus, all other instruments are excluded. The passage says sing AND make melody in your heart.
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Post by steve spidell on Jul 31, 2009 8:16:18 GMT -5
Sir, the definition you posted doesn't even agree with you. The definition says "Harp OR OTHER MUSICAL INSTRUMENT". As I said before, the musical instrument used to make melody is the one that God created. The heart. Thus, all other instruments are excluded. The passage says sing AND make melody in your heart. So, are you saying we can't sing out loud? we have to do it in our hearts? Cause, in case you don't know, "AND" is a conjunction, it connects "sing" and "make melody". Oops, i almost forgot, it connects "psalms" too, which says we can use a musical instrument made by man. How can we use a musical instrument or sing in our hearts? AAhh, i see, we can make the melody in our hearts, and then express it with musical instruments and our voices.
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Jul 31, 2009 16:51:59 GMT -5
AAhh, i see, we can make the melody in our hearts, and then express it with musical instruments and our voices. You can't bring MMI's into the assembling of the church any more than you can incense, dancing, polygamy, animal sacrifices, etc. Sir, the passage specifies the instrument to be used. Had God said "Play a trumpet" you'd insist that you must play a trumpet. However, when God says "Use your voice" you insist that you can use anything. How do you find the liberty to choose an alternate means in a direct commandment of God? Please answer my question.
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Post by steve spidell on Jul 31, 2009 18:30:00 GMT -5
You can't bring MMI's into the assembling of the church any more than you can incense, dancing, polygamy, animal sacrifices, etc. Sir, the passage specifies the instrument to be used. Had God said "Play a trumpet" you'd insist that you must play a trumpet. However, when God says "Use your voice" you insist that you can use anything. How do you find the liberty to choose an alternate means in a direct commandment of God? Please answer my question. Jonathan, i do not find an "alternate" means, the word "psalms'" allows a harp or other instruments. What is so hard to understand about that? How can you play a harp in your heart? And, actually, here is the definition of "making melody"; G5567 ψάλλω psallō psal'-lo Probably strengthened from ψάω psaō (to rub or touch the surface; compare G5597); to twitch or twang, that is, to play on a stringed instrument (celebrate the divine worship with music and accompanying odes):
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Post by anchor on Aug 1, 2009 15:23:11 GMT -5
You can't bring MMI's into the assembling of the church any more than you can incense, dancing, polygamy, animal sacrifices, etc. Sir, the passage specifies the instrument to be used. Had God said "Play a trumpet" you'd insist that you must play a trumpet. However, when God says "Use your voice" you insist that you can use anything. How do you find the liberty to choose an alternate means in a direct commandment of God? Please answer my question. Wow, you mean we cant "dance" before God while praising Him? Then why did God accept David's dancing before him? I believe that WE CAN dance if we so choose to because it is Scripturally supported. Just as playing musical instruments in our worship to God is Scripturally supported. Read the last few Scriptures of Psalms and you will see that God likes all sorts of musical intruments. David played the harp when he sang Psalms to God didn't he? Anchor707
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Aug 1, 2009 21:52:24 GMT -5
You can't bring MMI's into the assembling of the church any more than you can incense, dancing, polygamy, animal sacrifices, etc. Sir, the passage specifies the instrument to be used. Had God said "Play a trumpet" you'd insist that you must play a trumpet. However, when God says "Use your voice" you insist that you can use anything. How do you find the liberty to choose an alternate means in a direct commandment of God? Please answer my question. Wow, you mean we cant "dance" before God while praising Him? Then why did God accept David's dancing before him? I believe that WE CAN dance if we so choose to because it is Scripturally supported. Just as playing musical instruments in our worship to God is Scripturally supported. Read the last few Scriptures of Psalms and you will see that God likes all sorts of musical intruments. David played the harp when he sang Psalms to God didn't he? Anchor707 Show me where God has ever approved of Mechanical Musical Instruments. Show me where David's dancing was approved of God.
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Aug 1, 2009 22:25:02 GMT -5
You can't bring MMI's into the assembling of the church any more than you can incense, dancing, polygamy, animal sacrifices, etc. Sir, the passage specifies the instrument to be used. Had God said "Play a trumpet" you'd insist that you must play a trumpet. However, when God says "Use your voice" you insist that you can use anything. How do you find the liberty to choose an alternate means in a direct commandment of God? Please answer my question. Jonathan, i do not find an "alternate" means, the word "psalms'" allows a harp or other instruments. What is so hard to understand about that? How can you play a harp in your heart? And, actually, here is the definition of "making melody"; G5567 ψάλλω psallō psal'-lo Probably strengthened from ψάω psaō (to rub or touch the surface; compare G5597); to twitch or twang, that is, to play on a stringed instrument (celebrate the divine worship with music and accompanying odes): ψάλλω 1. to pluck off, pull out 2. to cause to vibrate by touching, to twang 1. to touch or strike the chord, to twang the strings of a musical instrument so that they gently vibrate 2. to play on a stringed instrument, to play, the harp, etc. 3. to sing to the music of the harp 4. in the NT to sing a hymn, to celebrate the praises of God in song * (William Mounce’s Complete Expository Dictionary): “psallo means to sing” (659). * (New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology): “psallo has the sense to sing hymns of praise” (Bartels 672). * (The New Analytical Greek Lexicon): “in the N.T to sing praises” (Perschbscher 442). * (Vines Expository Dictionary): “in the NT, to sing a hymn, sing praise” (402). * (The Analytical Greek Lexicon): “in the N.T, to sing praises” (Moulton 401). * (The Reader’s Greek New Testament): “psallo: I sing, sing praise” (Goodrich 426). * (A Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament): “in the NT, to sing a hymn, sing praises” (Abbot-Smith 487). * (Abridged Theological Dictionary of New Testament Theology): “does not now denote literally playing on a stringed instrument” (Kittel 1226). * (Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament): “in the N.T, to sing a hymn, to celebrate the praises of God in song” (675). Here's what the Greek authorities have to say about this Greek word. What sort of credentials do you have? Are you saying that your voice is not an instrument? Your voice is the only authorized instrument in this passage. We are to sing, not play.
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Post by steve spidell on Aug 2, 2009 8:02:03 GMT -5
None of that says we cannot use instruments. The definitions for "psalms", making melody", and "songs" are implicit, if not explicit, for using musical instruments.
You've taken one part of that definition, when there are five parts speaking of musical instruments.
No, voices and man made instruments are both allowed here.
There are no verses forbidding us from using man made instruments in the NT.
And, how do you interpret the verses in Revelation that says they use harps in Heaven?
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Post by anchor on Aug 2, 2009 13:26:04 GMT -5
Hello brothers :-)
Whew! Even Yeshua said that all the law and the prophets are fulfilled in this: Love your neighbor as yourself.
And apostle Paul counseled against anyone who would be trying to take away our freedom in Christ.
Now lets reason about this a bit. Since King David will be resurrected and will be with Christ in the kingdom, does anyone really think or believe that Christ will tell him to put away his harp because he can no longer use it to worship and praise God? Hardly.
Funny thing. Some men will always try to lay down NEW LAWS AND NEW COMMANDMENTS. Since God put his law in our hearts, and nothing in our hearts says that worshiping God cannot be accompanied with musical instruments, NOR is there a NEW LAW in the New Testament which clearly SAYS NOT TO USE them, then WHY TRY TO INSIST THAT THERE IS A NEW LAW about musical instruments?
"All the law is fulfilled in this; "love your neighbor as yourself" MMMMM no law against musical instruments here. So love allows our neighbor to make music with a musical instrument if his heart so desires when worshiping and praising God.
The pharisee way of adding to God's law are a thing of the past. Sorry Jonathan, your brothers and sisters in Christ do not subscribe to your *new law* you want to bind the church to. No where is Scripture does it say that using musical instruments in our worship is A SIN. Not in the Hebrew Scriptures NOR in the Christian Scriptures.
Why oh why do men tend to always want to control people and to bring them into bondage to their own consciences?
If it bothers your conscience to play musical instruments, THEN DONT!
But since it doesn't bother others consciences, then ALLOW THEM to keep their freedom of conscience, as apostle Paul says. It does not show love when a person forces their own personal conscience upon others, and insist that everyone else have to do things THEIR WAY, according to THEIR conscience.
Why strain the knat but swallow the camel? What your new law is doing is causing divisions in the house of God. Could this be a NEW STUMBLING BLOCK to God's Congregation?
I personally believe that it is.
Anchor
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Post by anchor on Aug 2, 2009 13:30:26 GMT -5
Steve Spidell wrote:
" how do you interpret the verses in Revelation that says they use harps in Heaven?"
Hey Steve! Hahaha, THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION!
Anchor
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