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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Jul 28, 2009 7:22:21 GMT -5
A.) Christ has all authority in heaven and earth
B.) Christ did not authorize the use of Mechanical Musical Instruments in the worship toward God (If so, then where?).
Conclusion: Therefore, Mechanical Musical Instruments are brought into the worship services by the authorization of men.
If your church chooses to do so, how can one advocate that Christ is the head of that church since he obviously only has some or most but definitely not all authority?
Did Christ die for a church to which he is no longer head?
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Post by logic on Jul 28, 2009 11:05:52 GMT -5
A.) Christ has all authority in heaven and earth B.) Christ did not authorize the use of Mechanical Musical Instruments in the worship toward God (If so, then where?). Conclusion: Therefore, Mechanical Musical Instruments are brought into the worship services by the authorization of men.If your church chooses to do so, how can one advocate that Christ is the head of that church since he obviously only has some or most but definitely not all authority? Did Christ die for a church to which he is no longer head? I had to laugh when I first read this. I can't believe that people actualy think this kind of stuff. [glow=red,2,300]This is a subtle form of leagalism.[/glow] What is wrong with "Mechanical Musical Instruments in the worship"? Christ also did not authorize the use tennis shoes in the church, folding chairs in the place of pews, mother's nursing rooms for privacy, childeren's church, drinking coffee at bible studies, coffee & doughnuts before the service & pot luck afterward, ...ect... Where does it end?
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Post by nazerite on Jul 28, 2009 13:09:13 GMT -5
I agree with logic on this one. Johnathen I told you to not to talk about Doctrine because your just causing trouble. Go to church and learn and love Christ, but dont teach. Maybe you can serve Christ another way. Your going to incur some guilt on your behalf and God is going frown down on you because your not handeling the word of truth correctly.
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Jul 28, 2009 13:33:09 GMT -5
A.) Christ has all authority in heaven and earth B.) Christ did not authorize the use of Mechanical Musical Instruments in the worship toward God (If so, then where?). Conclusion: Therefore, Mechanical Musical Instruments are brought into the worship services by the authorization of men.If your church chooses to do so, how can one advocate that Christ is the head of that church since he obviously only has some or most but definitely not all authority? Did Christ die for a church to which he is no longer head? I had to laugh when I first read this. I can't believe that people actualy think this kind of stuff. [glow=red,2,300]This is a subtle form of leagalism.[/glow] What is wrong with "Mechanical Musical Instruments in the worship"? Christ also did not authorize the use tennis shoes in the church, folding chairs in the place of pews, mother's nursing rooms for privacy, childeren's church, drinking coffee at bible studies, coffee & doughnuts before the service & pot luck afterward, ...ect... Where does it end? Whatsoever we do in word or deed must be done in the name of Christ. That is, with his approval. Paul told us about eating during worship services "What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God..." As for pews, shoes, and children classrooms these can all be authorized in the scriptures. Sir, why do you believe that a direct commandment constitutes as liberty on behalf of the recipient? BTW perhaps you should study the history of MMI's in the worship services. You'd be surprised.
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Jul 28, 2009 13:34:56 GMT -5
I agree with logic on this one. Johnathen I told you to not to talk about Doctrine because your just causing trouble. Go to church and learn and love Christ, but dont teach. Maybe you can serve Christ another way. Your going to incur some guilt on your behalf and God is going frown down on you because your not handeling the word of truth correctly. Your favorite preacher despised MMI's. Martin Luther said that the Organ in the worship service was an instrument of baal. Perhaps you should read what John Calvin wrote on the subject. I meet with the church on every occasion. The church does not use MMI.
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Post by nazerite on Jul 28, 2009 13:41:27 GMT -5
Sorry bro ... thats your loss. Yes, I did here some things about that. I never said I agree with them on evry aspect. However I do know some instance where instruments can get in the way of true song worship, thats a problem, but others, where it is not the center of the worshp. I worship at reform church and we have instruements that play on the side of the congregation, but there are still instruments that are played, and sounds great.
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Jul 28, 2009 14:08:18 GMT -5
Sorry bro ... thats your loss. Yes, I did here some things about that. I never said I agree with them on evry aspect. However I do know some instance where instruments can get in the way of true song worship, thats a problem, but others, where it is not the center of the worshp. I worship at reform church and we have instruements that play on the side of the congregation, but there are still instruments that are played, and sounds great. By what authority have you brought MMI's into your worship services? BTW, why reform the church? Is Christ's church not good enough?
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Post by logic on Jul 28, 2009 16:06:33 GMT -5
What's an MMI?
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Post by Melmoth on Jul 28, 2009 17:31:11 GMT -5
Mechanical Musical Instrument I would assume. Did Jesus authorize cars, electric lighting, planes, computers, etc. ...? If not, does that then make them tools of Satan?
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Jul 28, 2009 17:42:45 GMT -5
Mechanical Musical Instrument I would assume. Did Jesus authorize cars, electric lighting, planes, computers, etc. ...? If not, does that then make them tools of Satan? Yes they are authorized.
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Jul 28, 2009 17:44:51 GMT -5
Mechanical Musical Instruments Will you answer my honest question? "Sir, why do you believe that a direct commandment constitutes as liberty on behalf of the recipient?"
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Post by Josh Parsley on Jul 28, 2009 21:04:57 GMT -5
Mechanical Musical Instrument I would assume. Did Jesus authorize cars, electric lighting, planes, computers, etc. ...? If not, does that then make them tools of Satan? Yes they are authorized. Scripture?
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Jul 28, 2009 21:19:28 GMT -5
Cars --> Matthew 28 "Go ye therefore..." Jesus told us to "Go". Since Christ said Go we have the liberty to chose the means by which we "Go." Had Jesus said "Walk ye therefore...' Then we would have to walk everywhere we went. Lighting, --> We can find approved examples within the scriptures of the apostles and disciples using lighting. We can therefore also use lighting. Computers --> Instruments can be used to spread the gospel. We can find an approved example --> Jesus used visual presentations - Matthew 18. Computers can also be used as entertainment so long as the entertainment is not ungodly.
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Post by logic on Jul 28, 2009 21:39:00 GMT -5
"Sir, why do you believe that a direct commandment constitutes as liberty on behalf of the recipient?" Where's the commandment against MMIs
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Post by logic on Jul 28, 2009 21:42:19 GMT -5
Cars --> Matthew 28 "Go ye therefore..." Jesus told us to "Go". Since Christ said Go we have the liberty to chose the means by which we "Go." Had Jesus said "Walk ye therefore...' Then we would have to walk everywhere we went. Lighting, --> We can find approved examples within the scriptures of the apostles and disciples using lighting. We can therefore also use lighting. Computers --> Instruments can be used to spread the gospel. We can find an approved example --> Jesus used visual presentations - Matthew 18. Computers can also be used as entertainment so long as the entertainment is not ungodly. Make a joyful noise unto the Lord; MMI could make a joyfull noise, therefore they are acceptable by the authorization of God.
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Post by nazerite on Jul 28, 2009 22:26:42 GMT -5
Johnathen go home, nobody wants to here your faulty doctrine.
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Jul 28, 2009 22:33:27 GMT -5
"Sir, why do you believe that a direct commandment constitutes as liberty on behalf of the recipient?" Where's the commandment against MMIs You've proved my point. So many denominations today have a lack of respect for the word of God. They say "The Bible doesn't say we can't do it, therefore we can." How rediculous is this? If the Bible contained all of the "Thou Shalt not's" That are in the world then the bible would weigh too much to carry. God prescribed a method of worship and all other method's are banned. Cain thought he could off God what he wanted to offer him too, but it didn't work.
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Jul 28, 2009 22:35:14 GMT -5
Cars --> Matthew 28 "Go ye therefore..." Jesus told us to "Go". Since Christ said Go we have the liberty to chose the means by which we "Go." Had Jesus said "Walk ye therefore...' Then we would have to walk everywhere we went. Lighting, --> We can find approved examples within the scriptures of the apostles and disciples using lighting. We can therefore also use lighting. Computers --> Instruments can be used to spread the gospel. We can find an approved example --> Jesus used visual presentations - Matthew 18. Computers can also be used as entertainment so long as the entertainment is not ungodly. Make a joyful noise unto the Lord; MMI could make a joyfull noise, therefore they are acceptable by the authorization of God. David's psalm's do not authorize MMI's. Not to mention you're returning to the Old Testament to find your New Testament authorization. Do you understand those consequences?
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Post by logic on Jul 29, 2009 9:04:53 GMT -5
I am so confused about this thread. What is so wrong with Mechanical Musical Instruments?
Please give me your example of a Mechanical Musical Instrument.
Here is a list of MMIs according to the definition of being mechanical: An organ or piano would be an MMI, so would a set of high-hat cymbals, brass instruments (because of the vales, accept for the bugle), guitar (because of the knobs that tighten the strings; or if it is electric, the amplifyer would mostly be the mechanical part), some wind instruments like the saxaphone (because of the vales).
Any instrument that has moving parts would be excluded from Church.
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Post by steve spidell on Jul 29, 2009 23:43:31 GMT -5
God prescribed a method of worship and all other method's are banned. So, just what is the prescribed method according to your view?
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Jul 30, 2009 6:46:53 GMT -5
I am so confused about this thread. What is so wrong with Mechanical Musical Instruments? Please give me your example of a Mechanical Musical Instrument. Here is a list of MMIs according to the definition of being mechanical: An organ or piano would be an MMI, so would a set of high-hat cymbals, brass instruments (because of the vales, accept for the bugle), guitar (because of the knobs that tighten the strings; or if it is electric, the amplifyer would mostly be the mechanical part), some wind instruments like the saxaphone (because of the vales). Any instrument that has moving parts would be excluded from Church. Sir, there's nothing evil about Mechanical Musical Instruments. They are simply not part of God's prescribed pattern for worship. We as humans have not the authority to change or add too God's prescribed pattern. There are many Old Testament examples which were written for our learning that we could study if you're willing. (Not to mention the New Testaments call for a "pattern".) To define the term "Mechanical Musical Instruments." -- "Mechancial" in the sense that this has been created by man.
"Musical" in the sense that this thing created by man is used for music, noise, sound, etc.
"Instrument" A tool to be used.There is in fact, an instrument prescribed by God for the New Testament church to use. Yet this instrument is neither "mechanical" in nature for it has been created by God. We are to sing and make melody in our hearts. The perscribed form of worship is to admonish or build up one another with songs hymns and spiritual songs --> Singing, making melody in our hearts. All other methods are restricted.Take for example Peter. When he was told to go to Cesarea and preach to a gentile the things concerning the kingdom of God. Did he have the liberty to choose a different town other than Cesarea? Or maybe a different Gentile other than Cornelius? If not, then why do we have the liberty to add too, or change God's command to worship him?Remember: - Remember Abel's sacrifice was greater than Cain's because his was done by Faith. - Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. - Abel knew what God had perscribed and offered what God desired. - Cain was deffinitly zealos about his offering. After all, he became jealous and slew his brother. However, his sacrifice was not according to faith. Thus, God was not pleased.
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Post by logic on Jul 30, 2009 8:17:04 GMT -5
This whole thread is garbage. I will use anything that make a musical sound in singing prase to God.
According to you, you can't even sing from a pre-recorded CD as back-up music.
Sheesh, some people & their subtle forms of legalism.
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Post by tonyholland on Jul 30, 2009 8:57:46 GMT -5
Sheesh, some people & their subtle forms of legalism. Not sure I would call it a subtle form of legalism
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Post by steve spidell on Jul 30, 2009 9:58:25 GMT -5
The perscribed form of worship is to admonish or build up one another with songs hymns and spiritual songs --> Singing, making melody in our hearts. All other methods are restricted. It seems that you left out part of Eph. 5:19, it's psalms which means: G5568 ψαλμός psalmos psal-mos' From G5567; a set piece of music, that is, a sacred ode (accompanied with the voice, harp or other instrument; a “psalm”); collectively the book of the Psalms: - psalm. Compare G5603. So, there ya go, at least one example.
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Jul 30, 2009 10:16:12 GMT -5
The perscribed form of worship is to admonish or build up one another with songs hymns and spiritual songs --> Singing, making melody in our hearts. All other methods are restricted. It seems that you left out part of Eph. 5:19, it's psalms which means: G5568 ψαλμός psalmos psal-mos' From G5567; a set piece of music, that is, a sacred ode (accompanied with the voice, harp or other instrument; a “psalm”); collectively the book of the Psalms: - psalm. Compare G5603. So, there ya go, at least one example. The passage authorizes the form of Instrument to be used. Thus Mechanical Musical Instruments are purposely left out and unauthorized. Singing and making melody in your hearts.
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Jul 30, 2009 10:17:13 GMT -5
This whole thread is garbage. I will use anything that make a musical sound in singing prase to God. According to you, you can't even sing from a pre-recorded CD as back-up music. Sheesh, some people & their subtle forms of legalism. Sir, does the New Testament utilize the word "pattern"? If it does not, does that by force of circumstance, rule out the idea of a pattern? If it does, then why is it used if there is no pattern? If it does, then why do we have to rebuttal the idea of a pattern? Friend, your attitude toward God's pattern is "garbage."
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Post by Rhema Seeker (Guy) on Jul 30, 2009 11:33:45 GMT -5
This boy needs deliverance.
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Jul 30, 2009 11:44:28 GMT -5
This boy needs deliverance. If it seems evil unto to serve the pattern of the Lord, choose ye this day whom ye will serve.
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Post by logic on Jul 30, 2009 15:36:49 GMT -5
This boy needs deliverance. If it seems evil unto to serve the pattern of the Lord, choose ye this day whom ye will serve. As for me and my house, I will serve the Lord with MMIs
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Jul 30, 2009 16:15:44 GMT -5
If it seems evil unto to serve the pattern of the Lord, choose ye this day whom ye will serve. As for me and my house, I will serve the Lord with MMIs Not in the name of the Lord.
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