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Post by logic on Oct 14, 2009 19:40:06 GMT -5
Can you choose when to give a word of wisdom or knowledge? Can you choose when to have uncommone faith? Can you choose when to heal or to do a miracle? Can you choose when to take the gift of prophecy? Can you choose when to discern spirits?
Last question: Are you deciding when you will speak or pray in tongues?
No one can just say, "I'm going to pray in tongues now", as much as they can say that they will take any of the other gifts of the Spirit now; if you do, all you will be truly doing is babbling.
If you, yourself are inducing the so called "tongue", it is not of the Spirit.
The true gift of tongues is like a cup of water filled to the brim (no more room for water), then one comes along and puts a refreshing ice cube into the cup; the water can't help but to over flow and spill out. The same with the gift of tongues, when praying and becoming filled with His Spirit, you will find yourself overflowing and the gift will spill out of you (if you let it).
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Post by debonnaire on Oct 17, 2009 15:19:25 GMT -5
i aggree - it is the gift of the Spirit - we are only vessels
All glory to the Lord.
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Post by Steve Noel on Oct 17, 2009 20:47:22 GMT -5
I disagree with this. How do you understand this text in 1 Co 14:14-19? Paul writes: "For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful. What am I to do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also; I will sing praise with my spirit, but I will sing with my mind also. Otherwise, if you give thanks with your spirit, how can anyone in the position of an outsider say “Amen” to your thanksgiving when he does not know what you are saying? For you may be giving thanks well enough, but the other person is not being built up. I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. Nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue." Paul here says that when he prays in a tongue his spirit prays. He then says, "I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also." It seems to me that Paul is able to "will" to pray with his spirit (in tongues in context) just like he is able to "will" to pray with his mind. What do you think?
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Oct 17, 2009 21:20:03 GMT -5
Can you choose when to give a word of wisdom or knowledge? Can you choose when to have uncommone faith? Can you choose when to heal or to do a miracle? Can you choose when to take the gift of prophecy? Can you choose when to discern spirits? Last question: Are you deciding when you will speak or pray in tongues? No one can just say, "I'm going to pray in tongues now", as much as they can say that they will take any of the other gifts of the Spirit now; if you do, all you will be truly doing is babbling. If you, yourself are inducing the so called "tongue", it is not of the Spirit. The true gift of tongues is like a cup of water filled to the brim (no more room for water), then one comes along and puts a refreshing ice cube into the cup; the water can't help but to over flow and spill out. The same with the gift of tongues, when praying and becoming filled with His Spirit, you will find yourself overflowing and the gift will spill out of you (if you let it). No one can choose to speak in miraculous tongues because they have ceased. 1 Corinthians 13:8-10 "Being filled with the spirit" has a wide range of meanings in the New Testament. This is a very hard post to follow. Would you please supply definitions for: The gift of tongues.
Healing.
Wisdom.
Being filled with the Spirit.
Prophecy.
etc. And Bible verses for many of the things you wrote. To answer your original five questions I would have to know how your defining the terms. For instance: Knowledge --> I can speak a word of wisdom and of knowledge at anytime I want by quoting the New Testament. However, if we're refering to the receiving of miraculous revelation that some received through the laying on of the apostles hands, then no, I cannot choose when to receive or produce this knowledge for many reasons. One being that I do not have an apostle to lay his hands on me. Jon
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Post by Steve Noel on Oct 17, 2009 22:19:08 GMT -5
Can you choose when to give a word of wisdom or knowledge? Can you choose when to have uncommone faith? Can you choose when to heal or to do a miracle? Can you choose when to take the gift of prophecy? Can you choose when to discern spirits? Last question: Are you deciding when you will speak or pray in tongues? No one can just say, "I'm going to pray in tongues now", as much as they can say that they will take any of the other gifts of the Spirit now; if you do, all you will be truly doing is babbling. If you, yourself are inducing the so called "tongue", it is not of the Spirit. The true gift of tongues is like a cup of water filled to the brim (no more room for water), then one comes along and puts a refreshing ice cube into the cup; the water can't help but to over flow and spill out. The same with the gift of tongues, when praying and becoming filled with His Spirit, you will find yourself overflowing and the gift will spill out of you (if you let it). No one can choose to speak in miraculous tongues because they have ceased. 1 Corinthians 13:8-10 "Being filled with the spirit" has a wide range of meanings in the New Testament. This is a very hard post to follow. Would you please supply definitions for: The gift of tongues.
Healing.
Wisdom.
Being filled with the Spirit.
Prophecy.
etc. And Bible verses for many of the things you wrote. To answer your original five questions I would have to know how your defining the terms. For instance: Knowledge --> I can speak a word of wisdom and of knowledge at anytime I want by quoting the New Testament. However, if we're refering to the receiving of miraculous revelation that some received through the laying on of the apostles hands, then no, I cannot choose when to receive or produce this knowledge for many reasons. One being that I do not have an apostle to lay his hands on me. Jon Jon, I have a challenge for you: Show me ONE text that is intended to show that the gifts of the Spirit would cease. 1 Corinthians 13:8-10 teaches that these gifts will cease at the return of Christ. Steve
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Oct 17, 2009 22:46:08 GMT -5
No one can choose to speak in miraculous tongues because they have ceased. 1 Corinthians 13:8-10 "Being filled with the spirit" has a wide range of meanings in the New Testament. This is a very hard post to follow. Would you please supply definitions for: The gift of tongues.
Healing.
Wisdom.
Being filled with the Spirit.
Prophecy.
etc. And Bible verses for many of the things you wrote. To answer your original five questions I would have to know how your defining the terms. For instance: Knowledge --> I can speak a word of wisdom and of knowledge at anytime I want by quoting the New Testament. However, if we're refering to the receiving of miraculous revelation that some received through the laying on of the apostles hands, then no, I cannot choose when to receive or produce this knowledge for many reasons. One being that I do not have an apostle to lay his hands on me. Jon Jon, I have a challenge for you: Show me ONE text that is intended to show that the gifts of the Spirit would cease. 1 Corinthians 13:8-10 teaches that these gifts will cease at the return of Christ. Steve If "That which is perfect has come" is refering to the return of Christ then you have a problem. This passage clearly teaches that when "that which is perfect" comes; Faith, hope, and love will continue (Verse 13). Faith and hope will not exist after the return of Christ. Romans 8:24 "For we are saved by hope but hope that is seen is not hope..." Hebrews 11:1 "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not see."
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Post by debonnaire on Oct 18, 2009 12:41:02 GMT -5
So then when did they ceased ?
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Oct 18, 2009 17:12:48 GMT -5
So then when did they ceased ? When the revelation of God was brought into completion.
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Post by Steve Noel on Oct 18, 2009 17:17:04 GMT -5
Jon, I have a challenge for you: Show me ONE text that is intended to show that the gifts of the Spirit would cease. 1 Corinthians 13:8-10 teaches that these gifts will cease at the return of Christ. Steve If "That which is perfect has come" is refering to the return of Christ then you have a problem. This passage clearly teaches that when "that which is perfect" comes; Faith, hope, and love will continue (Verse 13). Faith and hope will not exist after the return of Christ. Romans 8:24 "For we are saved by hope but hope that is seen is not hope..." Hebrews 11:1 "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not see." Consider this: Verse 12 is speaking of the same time of the cessation of these gifts as verse 9. This is indicated by the contrast between the "now" and "then" in verse 12. What does verse 12 say about that time when the gifts will cease? It says then we will see "face to face". This is an O.T. expression for seeing God personally (see Gen 32:30; Ex 33:11; Dt 34:10; Jdg 6:22; Eze 20:35). If you believe this is talking about the completion of the canon (?), then I ask, when did the canon get a face? Also when Paul says in verse 12 that at this time "I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." it seems evident that this is a reference to the Lord's return (see 1 Jn 3:2; Rev 22:4) Dr. D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones said this about the view that connects "when the perfect comes" with the completion of the N.T.: It means that you and I, who have the Scriptures open before us, know much more than the apostle Paul of God's truth....It means that we are altogether superior...even to the apostles themselves, including the apostle Paul! It means that we are now in a position in which...'we know, even as also we are known' by God...indeed, there is only one word to describe such a view, it is nonsense." (Prove All Things, pp. 32-33) Let me throw in one more text from 1 Corinthians that I think is relevant. It 1 Co 1:7 "so that you are not lacking in any spiritual gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ". Here Paul connects the gifts in the church as Corinth with the return of the Lord. Surely, the Corinthians would understand Paul to be speaking of this as well in chapter 13. Question: If you do not believe this is speaking of the return of Christ, then what do you believe it is speaking of? Steve
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Oct 19, 2009 6:22:28 GMT -5
If "That which is perfect has come" is refering to the return of Christ then you have a problem. This passage clearly teaches that when "that which is perfect" comes; Faith, hope, and love will continue (Verse 13). Faith and hope will not exist after the return of Christ. Romans 8:24 "For we are saved by hope but hope that is seen is not hope..." Hebrews 11:1 "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not see." Consider this: Verse 12 is speaking of the same time of the cessation of these gifts as verse 9. This is indicated by the contrast between the "now" and "then" in verse 12. What does verse 12 say about that time when the gifts will cease? It says then we will see "face to face". This is an O.T. expression for seeing God personally (see Gen 32:30; Ex 33:11; Dt 34:10; Jdg 6:22; Eze 20:35). If you believe this is talking about the completion of the canon (?), then I ask, when did the canon get a face? Also when Paul says in verse 12 that at this time "I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." it seems evident that this is a reference to the Lord's return (see 1 Jn 3:2; Rev 22:4) Dr. D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones said this about the view that connects "when the perfect comes" with the completion of the N.T.: It means that you and I, who have the Scriptures open before us, know much more than the apostle Paul of God's truth....It means that we are altogether superior...even to the apostles themselves, including the apostle Paul! It means that we are now in a position in which...'we know, even as also we are known' by God...indeed, there is only one word to describe such a view, it is nonsense." (Prove All Things, pp. 32-33) Let me throw in one more text from 1 Corinthians that I think is relevant. It 1 Co 1:7 "so that you are not lacking in any spiritual gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ". Here Paul connects the gifts in the church as Corinth with the return of the Lord. Surely, the Corinthians would understand Paul to be speaking of this as well in chapter 13. Question: If you do not believe this is speaking of the return of Christ, then what do you believe it is speaking of? Steve "For now we see in a mirror darkly but then face to face..." 1 Corinthians 13:12 My dear friend. May I dare ask what you see in a mirror? The scriptures do not have a face. We will see ourselves face to face. He continues: "Then shall I know fully even as also I was fully known." James compares the revelation of God to being a mirror. James 1:22 As for your quote: I have no clue who this dude is and it makes no difference. Also, let us not make the mistake of adding the word "miraculous" into every passage that speaks of gifts. Furthermore, will you chose to counter my rebuttal on verse 13?
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Post by Steve Noel on Oct 22, 2009 11:45:05 GMT -5
I haven't left I just have a newborn and am getting little time right now. I'll respond when I get some sleep!
Steve
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Post by dmatic on Oct 22, 2009 15:50:52 GMT -5
Ephesians 4 speaks of giftings...for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry...and that these gifts would be here "TIL" we ALL come in the unity of the faith, unto a perfect man....
Obviously, after reading this thread, this has not yet occurred!
Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers are still for today.
As well as the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
Good questions for thought and prayer logic....
Peace, dmatic
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Oct 22, 2009 19:18:21 GMT -5
Ephesians 4 speaks of giftings...for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry...and that these gifts would be here "TIL" we ALL come in the unity of the faith, unto a perfect man.... Obviously, after reading this thread, this has not yet occurred! Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers are still for today. As well as the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Good questions for thought and prayer logic.... Peace, dmatic Verse 7 makes it very clear that this passage is refering to the miraculously gifted Apostles, prophets, evangelists, etc. I believe that we can come into the unity of the faith. Why wouldn't you believe that? I guess you would take the position that we cannot know what the Bible says. If that is so, then what are you doing on a religious forum discussing the scriptures?
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Post by dmatic on Oct 23, 2009 16:25:48 GMT -5
OH....please don't misunderstand. I do believe that we WILL one day come into the unity of the faith! Indeed. But, we haven't yet. This is apparent. So, I conclude that Apostles, Prophets...etc. are for today....and probably for tomorrow too!
You also wrote:
Your guess would be wrong of course.....sorry.
Doesn't it amaze you that, after claiming to know what the One Bible says, so many denominations are in disagreement with each other and, in fact, teach the exact opposite of what others teach about the same subject? Peace, dmatic
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Oct 23, 2009 19:06:20 GMT -5
OH....please don't misunderstand. I do believe that we WILL one day come into the unity of the faith! Indeed. But, we haven't yet. This is apparent. So, I conclude that Apostles, Prophets...etc. are for today....and probably for tomorrow too! You also wrote: Your guess would be wrong of course.....sorry. Doesn't it amaze you that, after claiming to know what the One Bible says, so many denominations are in disagreement with each other and, in fact, teach the exact opposite of what others teach about the same subject? Peace, dmatic I'm sorry sir. I don't agree with anything you've said. I don't believe any denominations are in the faith. All denominations are an abomination toward God (1 Corinthians 1:10). No denominations will be saved. If you want me to believe that a denomination will be saved show me a denomination in the Bible that will be saved. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Unless I can find a saved denomination within the scriptures I cannot have faith that they will be saved. We can all come to the unity of the faith by believing what the Bible says. Departing from man made creeds and strictly believing what the Bible says: Nothing more and nothing less. Take care, Jonathan
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