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Post by HDmatt on Apr 24, 2006 8:27:08 GMT -5
I cor 6:9-10 was preached in its entirety at a bar here lately and I was asked to define drunkard & wine Biblically. Wasn't sure if my answer was very good or convincing...wonder what yall think?
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Post by HDmatt on Apr 24, 2006 8:28:46 GMT -5
Or excuz me how are you supposed to deal with those questions?
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Post by Josh Parsley on Apr 24, 2006 10:53:39 GMT -5
A drunkard is one who gets drunk. Wine in those times were usually 3 parts water and 1 part wine, not 100% wine.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Apr 24, 2006 11:08:08 GMT -5
You're a liar if you lie once, a theif if you steal once, a murderer if you murder once, and a drunkard if you get drunk once. That is, until you become made a new creature in Christ Jesus.
It's also good to clarify that getting "buzzed" is not a term in the bible, but that getting "buzzed" is in fact being drunk as well.
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Post by cervyy on May 4, 2006 18:21:57 GMT -5
But I've gotten buzzed off of cough syrup before. And I was only trying to get rid of colds.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on May 4, 2006 20:22:23 GMT -5
Well, a drunkard is one who intentionally gets drunk for reasons that are not medicinal purposes.
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Post by Rodgers on May 7, 2006 22:13:13 GMT -5
Isa 1:21 How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers. Isa 1:22 Thy silver is become dross, thy wine mixed with water: Isa 1:23 Thy princes are rebellious, and companions of thieves: every one loveth gifts, and followeth after rewards: they judge not the fatherless, neither doth the cause of the widow come unto them.
They did not mix water with wine. In fact the prophet here lists it as an example of how the Nation had become unfaithful. Is God really concerned with food and drink? No! However, meritocracy says a lot about a nation of people. If you accept junk, you're most likely junk yourself. Our God is a God of excellence, whether is be wine, car repair, teaching, music or whatever else you can think of. The Nation of Israel had become a nation of slackers and their slackness showed in what they did with their wine, by mixing it with water.
Paul said the Kingdom of heaven is not about food and drink. All things are lawful for the pure in heart and we shall not be brought under the power of anything. As soon as a person is brought under the power of beer or wine, as in it becomes a craving and they allow it to alter their state of being, then I believe we are dealing with drunkenness. And being drunk is most definitely a sin.
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Post by Josh Parsley on May 8, 2006 9:05:54 GMT -5
Do you advocate drinking wiskey and beer as long as you don't feel drunk? Or do you feel that it is fine?
Did Jesus promote getting drunk when he made water into wine? How do you answer that common heckle?
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Post by Rodgers on May 8, 2006 12:28:03 GMT -5
I believe drunkenness is sin. For two reasons. It is selfish and harms not only yourself but the people around you. Two, it is a fleshly desire and we know that if we live by the flesh we shall die. Jesus drank wine and so did the apostles. Jesus never got drunk. Although I believe he was tempted to get drunk just like we are. For some they can not handle a drink because it is to great of a temptation, others can have a drink and not be as tempted to take it to the next step of drunkenness. In American culture at least, being drunk is some what of a right of passage. In other parts of the world, Europe, for example, drunkenness is still a very shameful act and they consume more alcoholic beverages than America per capita. John the baptist did not eat or drink, Jesus did both and the people still wanted to damn them both. But you know what, wisdom is justified by her children. Jesus was no drunk because he drank wine and John the Baptist had no demon.
Regarding the common heckler who tries to make excuse for his drunkenness by quoted the miracle at Cannon, well I guess their is nothing new under the sun. Sinners have been making excuses from the beginning. I would just tell that person that they know drunkenness is bad by the feeling they have when they wake up in their own puke. There own body is telling them that this is not something they should be doing.
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Post by Josh Parsley on May 8, 2006 12:38:53 GMT -5
What if the person doesn't feel bad the next morning? Some people don't really get hangovers. Then is their body telling them its ok to get drunk? I am just curious how you answer people.
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Post by Josh Parsley on May 8, 2006 12:45:00 GMT -5
A heckler would tear that answer up. They would say it doesn't harm anyone for me to get drunk if I don't drive. A matter of fact I help people make money by buying it ,coming to the bars, and getting a taxi home. So I can drink all I want as long as I don't get really drunk? Great. I wish Jesus was here to make some more wine.
They would say something similar to that. Many will say, I don't get drunk so I am fine.
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Post by Rodgers on May 8, 2006 13:11:41 GMT -5
Regarding the common heckler who tries to make excuse for his drunkenness by quoted the miracle at Cannon, well I guess their is nothing new under the sun. Sinners have been making excuses from the beginning. I would just tell that person that they know drunkenness is bad by the feeling they have when they wake up in their own puke. There own body is telling them that this is not something they should be doing.
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Post by biblethumper on May 8, 2006 17:46:07 GMT -5
What about Nytol (sleeping aids), percacet etc etc for pain? My knee cap came out after two drunks were killed when they hit me on my way to church.That hurt.I was quite literally out of my mind for weeks on medication.I do not believe I was in sin or sinning.Some say otherwise.any thoughts on drugs such as those and for thoise reasons?
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Post by ejuliot on May 9, 2006 2:31:28 GMT -5
I had to take vicodine after a surgery. The hospitol gave me too much demerol and then they told me to take vicodine when I got home. I was so messed up from that stuff that I was hallucinating. I will never in my right mind take vicodine again. I might as well have been on LSD. So, I just won't take it any more.
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Post by Jeffrey Olver on May 9, 2006 9:24:31 GMT -5
Well, the greek word for sorcerer in the Bible is pharmesutika (sp?) which basically means drug ABUSER. I would not say it's a sin if you suffer side effects involuntarily of something you've taken for medicine. I think using pot to get high, booze to get drunk, etc. is sinful.
On a different note, God has placed on this earth the resources for cures and medicines that blow out of the water any pharmaceutical. Garlic is the world's most potent, natural broad-spectrum anti-fungal and anti-biotic. Cayenne pepper (ground) is a super coagulant. If you have a cut to the bone and you pack it with cayenne pepper it congeles the blood and stops bleeding within 1 minute - and has been known to sustain a person suffering a heart attack when mixed with water as a "tea."
There are many, many more remedies that exist naturally in this world that God put here for a reason. But when man has tried to synthesize it, (as in all things) they pale in comparison to God's wisdom!!! Amen! Another amazing thing about God's medicines is that if you "overdose" the worst that will happen to you is vomitting. As we all know, that is not so with many pharmeceuticals. And they always treat your body for good, never for worse. The human body treats these things as food! So there's no risking that immune system will make a mistake.
Praise God!
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Post by Josh Parsley on May 9, 2006 10:06:05 GMT -5
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Post by ejuliot on May 9, 2006 14:15:25 GMT -5
Very interesting, this clears up a lot of confusion because I have been told by fellow college students and professors that the three to one part wine was just a myth. Thank you, thank you, thank you!
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Post by Rodgers on May 9, 2006 14:48:28 GMT -5
I would have to disagree with the gentlemen who wrote that article. I do not think it lines up with what we see in the bible. He even said that one would have a hurt bladder before that type of wine would affect their mind. One part wine and 20 parts water would not get a 10 year old drunk. He would piss it all out before it had a chance to take effect. I go back the earlier verse I posted about people mixing their wine with water as evil in the sight of God.
Here are some Strong words.
WINE H3196 יין yayin yah'-yin From an unused root meaning to effervesce; wine (as fermented); by implication intoxication: - banqueting, wine, wine [-bibber].
Strong Drink H7941 שׁכר shêkâr shay-kawr' From H7937; an intoxicant, that is, intensely alcoholic liquor: - strong drink, + drunkard, strong wine.
WINE H3196 יין yayin yah'-yin From an unused root meaning to effervesce; wine (as fermented); by implication intoxication: - banqueting, wine, wine [-bibber].
Deu 14:26 And thou shalt bestow5414 that money3701 for whatsoever3605, 834 thy soul5315 lusteth after,183 for oxen,1241 or for sheep,6629 or for wine,3196 or for strong drink,7941 or for whatsoever3605, 834 thy soul5315 desireth:7592 and thou shalt eat398 there8033 before6440 the LORD3068 thy God,430 and thou shalt rejoice,8055 thou,859 and thine household,1004 Deu 14:27 And the Levite3881 that834 is within thy gates;8179 thou shalt not3808 forsake5800 him; for3588 he hath no369 part2506 nor inheritance5159 with5973 thee.
Deu 14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,
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Post by Rodgers on May 9, 2006 14:50:40 GMT -5
No one in the ancient world ever mixed the water with wine, at least it was never looked favorably upon. I am a student of history and the bible and this claim that they mixed water with wine does not add up. drinking beer or wine is not a sin, getting drunk is. I appeal to Romans 14 in this situation.
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Post by Josh Parsley on May 11, 2006 20:19:55 GMT -5
I have been looking around at some different opinions and here are some:
The mingling that we read of, in conjunction with wine, may have been designed either to increase or to diminish the strength of the wine, according as spices or water formed the ingredient that was added. The notices chiefly favor the former view; for mingled liquor was prepared for high festivals, Pro_9:2; Pro_9:5, and occasions of excess. Pro_23:30; Isa_5:22. (Smith's Bible Dictionary by Dr. William Smith (1884))
1. Mixed Wine: In Old Testament times wine was drunk undiluted, and wine mixed with water was thought to be ruined (Isa_1:22). The “mixed” or “mingled wines” (see I, 1, (5), above) were prepared with aromatic herbs of various sorts and some of these compounds, used throughout the ancient world, were highly intoxicating (Isa_5:22). Wine mixed with myrrh was stupefying and an anesthetic (Mar_15:23). At a later period, however, the Greek use of diluted wines had attained such sway that the writer of 2 Maccabees speaks (15:39) of undiluted wine as “distasteful” (poleìmion). This dilution is so normal in the following centuries that the Mishna can take it for granted and, indeed, R. Eliezer even forbade saying the table-blessing over undiluted wine (Berākhōth 7 5). The proportion of water was large, only one-third or one-fourth of the total mixture being wine (Niddāh 2 7; Pesòāhòīm 108b).
Note. The wine of the Last Supper, accordingly, may be described in modern terms as a sweet, red, fermented wine, rather highly diluted. As it was no doubt the ordinary wine of commerce, there is no reason to suppose that it was particularly “pure.” (International Standard Bible Encyclopedia)
Among the ancient Jews, Greek, and Romans, wine was rarely drank without being mingled with water; and among ancient writers we find several ordinances for this. Some direct three parts of water to one of wine; some five parts; and Pliny mentions some wines that required twenty waters: but the most common proportions appear to have been three parts of water to two of wine. (Adam Clarke's Commentary on Proverbs 9:5)
Pro 9:2 - Killed - Made provision for the guests. Mingled - With water, as they used to do in those hot countries. Furnished - With all necessaries, and now waits for the guests. (John Wesley's notes on that verse)
I really don't know. I've seen some say that it was mixed commonly and others say it was not. Some say when it was migled it was to make it stronger (those say there were spices instead of water) and some say it was water to make it less strong. Anyone have a time machine?
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