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Post by benjoseph on Nov 22, 2009 11:31:25 GMT -5
Does Jesus' atonement make it so that murderers don't always have to be executed? Has God ever given men permission to not execute capital criminals?
If so.. What would be the conditions of pardon? Who would judge whether those conditions were met?
If not.. Should we promote that people (whether strangers, friends, family, or ourselves) who deserve the death penalty be executed?
For example, if I had been an accomplice to an abortion, should I refuse not to be executed?
Is it unjust for someone who has done something deserving of death to hope to escape the penalty?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Nov 22, 2009 15:24:15 GMT -5
There is no atonement system for civil government. A court simply seeks to know whether the law has been violated or not. If it has been, the penalty is executed. There is no atonement in civil court through which the penalty can be remitted or withheld.
The atonement only applies to God's moral government. The atonement makes it possible for our penalty of eternal hell to be remitted, but it does not save us from any civil penalties which we deserve for crimes against the society.
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Post by logic on Nov 22, 2009 19:54:12 GMT -5
There is no atonement system for civil government. A court simply seeks to know whether the law has been violated or not. If it has been, the penalty is executed. There is no atonement in civil court through which the penalty can be remitted or withheld. The atonement only applies to God's moral government. The atonement makes it possible for our penalty of eternal hell to be remitted, but it does not save us from any civil penalties which we deserve for crimes against the society. In regards to man sinning against God, we are not sinning against any moral governmental judicial structure. There is no atonement for sinning against such. All sin is against God personally. His law is only to show us what and how we accomplished by breaking it. There is no possible way that anyone to have a substitute for punishment of a crime such as murder in a moral government judicial system as we have in society; For example, a father could never take a son's place in his execution for murder. Furthermore, a King could never let a law breaker go free as in the case of Daniel and the lion's den. However, Jesus purchased/redeemed/ransomed us with His blood. However, Jesus represented us in judgment through His sacrifice that He might satisfy the law as our proxy. We actually die and fulfill our punishment of death IN CHRIST. We acknowledge this by baptism, which symbolizes our death and resurrection in Christ, not by the removing of outward filth of the flesh but by providing us with a good and clear conscience (inward cleanness and peace) before God through the [death and] resurrection of Jesus Christ 1Peter 3:21. The Atonement incorporates the concepts of: 1: propitiation (appeasement, satisfaction) Of God/His law 2: forgiveness of the offender 3: reconciliation between God and the offender God was & still is offended at sin. We offended God in our past. Jesus is whom God has set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God (Rom 3:25) What is the purpose of HIS Blood if the atonement is only for an example to prevent sin & to stop the spread of rebellion; for God to expresses His regard for His law? What is the Faith in His blood? We have been as Adam & Eve in the garden, our faith in His blood is that animal's blood was poured out & slaughtered to clothe them is as Jesus was crucified to cloth us in rightousness (Gen 3:21). We have been as stubborn as Pharaoh, our faith in His blood is that we know God will see it as He did at Pesach (Passover) on Israel's door posts (Exo 12:7). Jesus' blood is on us as Israel cried, “His blood be on us and on our children.” (Matthew 27:25). We are the one's who made Him to be crucified.
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Post by benjoseph on Nov 23, 2009 20:48:44 GMT -5
Jesse, what you said is something I have already been considering. If that is the case then I have more questions.
To what extent are civil penalties at the discretion of the government?
For example: I thought the death penalty for murder was required by God. Is our government sinning by not executing women who have knowingly killed their babies?
Or, in other words, does the civil government have the authority to decide to not execute murderers?
What about other crimes: Adultery, cursing or striking parents, homosexuality, bestiality, idolatry, etc.? Does God require that all civil governments penalize each of these crimes with death?
Is there a difference between murder and those other crimes because it was addressed prior to the laws given to Moses?
Does the government have the right to NOT execute former homosexuals, adulterers, etc? Or are they sinning against society by allowing them to live?
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