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Post by nazerite on Dec 12, 2009 2:22:25 GMT -5
Im a reformed Christian. I believe that 5 points of Calvinism to be Biblically accurate, however, I dont believe that what Jesse Morell preaches in his sermons to be 100% accurate. There are some things that are biblically correct; for instance: Hell, and Christ Atonement. But even in the atonement of Christ, there are somethings that he does not clarify. I would like to list some of the issues that are not clear, or are not accurate in his sermons and give a clear defintion of Perseverance of the saints Doctrine.
1.) Jesse's first question in his sermon is: "'Where is the security?" He says, "There is security is Christ." My question then would be: "How is their security and comfort for a christian, if a Christian can loose his salvation as soon as he sins?" David once said, "If you, O LORD, kept a record of sins, O Lord, who could stand? " If the Lord was still keeping a record of our sins after he has Forgiven them, Adopted us as his children, Reconciled us back to himself and Justified us, through our faith in Christ, our repentance towards God, God's undeserved kindness, and by Jesus atonement, who could stand? If we say that Christians can loose their salvation the moment they sin, then Christ atonment is nulified, and Christianity becomes another works beased religon. When I sin I confess, repent, and trust in Christs work on the cross. I bring nothing to the table except my trust in Christ work, a broken and sincere heart and a willingness to change. I have to admit and am gulty for taking my sins lightly sometimes (be sure of that is not the norm), but until Christ reveals me the truth about my errors their is nothing I can do. If I confess and do that same sin again, Im still saved. Although God will discipline me as a son and get me to change my actions through the conviction of the Spirit, who lives in me, or some kind physical disciplne, I will change; I will never be counted with the transgressors and tossed into hell. I will never loose my Salvation becuase we are those who are "called, beloved in God the Father and kept for Jesus Christ" and God is our Dad, He loves us enough disciplen us, not destroy us.
2.) Jesse says, "that God promises forgivness to those who give up their sins." My question is then where in the Bible does it say that a Christian, as soon as he is regenerated and renewed by the Holy Spirit, he can never sin? Christians sin all the time. They may not sin as much as they did before they were born again, nevertheless, they still sin. They still have sinful nature. Paul acknowledges that we still have a sinful nature when he warns the saints not to " use their freedom to indulge the sinful nature " and when he says, "So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature." From these passages in Galations, we can see that although our sinful nature has been given a death blow and severley weakened, and are no longer slaves, we still have sinful nature. That is why Christians still sin. We are warned not too, but we still do.
3.) Eternal Security or Preseverance of the saints. The perserverance of the saints means that everyone who has been born again will persevere until the end of their lives and are kept by God's power; therfore, those who persvere till the end are truly born again.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Dec 12, 2009 14:07:13 GMT -5
There is no security in sin. The only thing God promises for those who are in sin is wrath and judgment. The Bible never promises Heaven for sinners. Heaven is promised for those who keep the commandments of God. Mercy is promised to those who forsake their sins.
[/b]David once said, "If you, O LORD, kept a record of sins, O Lord, who could stand? " If the Lord was still keeping a record of our sins after he has Forgiven them, Adopted us as his children, Reconciled us back to himself and Justified us, through our faith in Christ, our repentance towards God, God's undeserved kindness, and by Jesus atonement, who could stand? [/quote]
The Lord remits the sins of those who repent of their sins. But those who continue in their sins do not have the remission of sins.
If we say that Christ covers us while we continue in our sin, then we make the atonement a license to sin. Hebrews 10:26 says that the blood does not cover us if we continue in sin. The blood covers those who go and sin no more.
The atonement is not nulified. The atonement was never intended to be a license to sin. The atonement was meant to purify us from sin, to save us from sin, and to bring the remission of sins to those who repent. Repentance is not a work, it is a change of heart and mind
If all your future sins are forgiven when you are converted, you don't need to repent if you sin.
Me too. If I sin, I repent and trust in God's undeserved mercy through Jesus Christ.
If you do what sins you are still saved? Was David still saved when he committed adultery and murder? The Bible says adulterers and murderers will not inherit the kingdom of God. Was Peter still saved when he denied the Lord? Jesus said if you deny me, I'll deny you.
The Bible says that he chastens us so that we will not perish with the world. That implies that if we do not heed his chastening, but continue in our sins, we will perish with the world.
The Bible says we can lose our salvation over and over again. We have to turn from sin to get saved and we must stay away from sin to stay saved. We must turn to Christ to get saved and we must remain in Christ to stay saved.
When did I say that we can never sin? Free will is not removed at regeneration. We have the ability to sin and we have the ability not to sin. All I said is that God only forgives those who repent (give up their sins) and we remain saved so long as we stay away from our sins. If we return to our sins, we once again return to the wrath of God. [/b][/b]Christians sin all the time. [/quote]
The Bible says that "we keep his commandments". If we sin all the time, we are not regenerated or born again. The Bible says that he that is born of God does not commit sin.
A Christian might backslide back into sin, but as long as a person remains a Christian they are obedient to God. If they are disobedient, they are no longer following Christ and are therefore no longer Christians.
Nobody has a sinful nature. The law only tells us what type of choices to make, not what type of nature to have. Therefore we can only have sinful choices but we cannot have a sinful nature. And Christians are new creatures. It says that the old has past and the new has come. Even if we did have a sinful nature, we wouldn't anymore because all things are new.
The NIV mistranslates the word "flesh" into sinful nature. The Gnostic's viewed the flesh as sinful, which is why they denied that Jesus came in the flesh. Sin is a choice, not a substance. It is not sinful to have a flesh, since Jesus had one, but it is sinful to live after the flesh. That is why we should not live after our flesh, because that is sin, that is selfishness.
The word is flesh. Sinful nature is a Gnostic view of the flesh. Why doesn't the NIV be consistent and translate "he that denies that Jesus Christ came in the flesh (sinful nature) is an antichrist". If they consistently translated the word "flesh" into "sinful nature" they would be saying that Jesus Christ had a sinful nature! This shows how they translated their theology into the Bible.
We still have a flesh, but our flesh is not sinful. We no longer live to gratify our flesh, and therefore we are no longer sinful.
Stop sinning. Paul said awake unto righteousness and sin not. Jesus said go and sin no more. If it were not possible to be perfect, we wouldn't be commanded to. If we were not commanded to repent (give up our sins) we wouldn't be required to.
Perseverance, as taught by Jesus, is that if we choose to continue to the end we will be saved. The Bible does not promise that we will continue to the end. The Bible says that we can "fall away" or fail to abide in Christ. Just as it is our choice to turn to Christ, it is our choice to stay in Christ.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Dec 12, 2009 14:44:50 GMT -5
Consider the follow:
* Sin separates man from God (Isa. 59:2). Those who are breaking God’s moral law cannot have a relationship with Him (1 Jn. 2:3-4) and consequently cannot have eternal life because eternal life is to know Him (Jn. 17:3).
* The wrath of God is against anyone who is in sin (Rom. 1:18; 2:8-9; Eph. 5:6; Co. 3:6).
* God will not allow anyone who is still sinning into Heaven (Matt. 13:41-42; Rev. 21:27; 22:15). The sin must stop before we die (Rev. 22:11). Only those who are obedient to God’s commandments will be allowed into Heaven (Matt. 7:21; Rev. 22:14).
* Repentance means to give up your sins (Acts 8:22; Rev. 9:20; 16:11).
* All of Heaven rejoices when one sinner repents (Lk. 5:7, 10). That is because when a sinner changes his mind about sinning, God can pardon him.
* God wants all men to repent (Eze. 33:11; 2 Pet. 3:9).
* When a sinner repents, when they depart from iniquity or forsake their sins, when they change their mind about breaking His law, God can extend mercy to them by pardoning their crimes (Isa. 55:7; Prov. 28:13).
* Repentance of sin always comes before the remission of sins (Mark 1:4; Lk. 3:3; Lk. 24:47; Acts 2:38). Repentance comes before salvation (2 Cor. 7:10).
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Dec 12, 2009 15:22:15 GMT -5
Justification by works of the law and repentance through the remission of sins must not be confused.
Justification by works of the law is the idea that:
- You are pronounced innocent becaus you have never sinned - You can atone for your own sins by your obedience - You have to obey the Torah, Mosaic law, and be circumcised to be saved - You need to perform some type of "work" to earn your salvation
Repentance through the remission of sins is when you:
- Change your mind about sinning or breaking God's law so that you can be pardoned by God's grace and mercy. Repentance is unmeritious, the repentant still deserve to go to hell, but they are pardoned by God's grace and mercy.
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Post by nazerite on Dec 12, 2009 17:10:01 GMT -5
I still cant find any difference from what you believe to be different from a work based religion. First, you claim that a person can only recieve forgivnees as along as he continues to repent. Although repentance is the characteristic of Christian's life, it can not atone for sins. A Christian should and will continue to repent through out their lives as: David, Moses, Samson and Peter; neverthless, a person with out the Spirit, will not repent. Furthermore, Christians who sin can not be placed in the same category as non believer. For instance, David when he sinned was never considered a non beliver, God treated him as a son and disciplened as a son. Although it was pretty severe, God never threatned to send him to Hell.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Dec 12, 2009 19:30:42 GMT -5
Are you saying that when David committed adultery and murder he was not going to hell, and even if he didn't repent of those sins he would have still gone to Heaven? That sounds like easy believism and antinomianism to me.
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Post by nazerite on Dec 12, 2009 21:13:44 GMT -5
David was not going to Hell. Consider the context and the tone of the passage. God, through Nathan, was rebuking David. First, Nathan used a parable to descibe Davids sin to show him his error. Then, in responce, David agrreed that the person who sinned against poor man in the story, deserved to die. After he was told that the man who sinned was him, was rebuked, and was told how he was going to pay dearly for that sin, David, with a broken heart, said, "I sinned against the Lord." Immediatly, Nathan replied, "The Lord has also put away your sin; you shall not die."
Conclusion: 1.) From God'd revealed will we understand that those who humble themselves will be exalted, as seen in the Old testament: "If my people who are called by my name HUMBLE THEMSELVES, and PRAY and SEEK my face and TURN from their wicked ways, THEN I will HEAR from heaven and will FORGIVE their sin and heal their land." David obeyed this commandment; thus, his fellowship was restored back to God. Lastly becuase David was repentant and sincerly grieved over his sin, God forgave his sin, though, God did not relent from disciplining him. Nowhere in the context did God ever threaten to send him to hell or eternal destruction; although God was angry, God still loved him, as it says, "The LORD, the LORD, a God MERCIFUL and GRACIOUS, SLOW TO ANGER, and ABOUNDING IN STEADFAST LOVE and faithfulness, keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, but(M) who will by no means clear the guilty" All in all, it must be understood that David was not considered as an enemy of God, but as a son. If he was an enemy of God, he would not have heeded nathan's rebuke unlike the othe Isralites who disobeyed every prophet God sent them. The proof that he was a legitamete son was that he was disciplened and his repentance. 2.) From God's secret will understand that before David sinned, it was decreed that David would turn follow the Lord. God already knew that David was going to repent just as he knew Pharoh would hardened his heart. I would also say that like Pharoh, whos heart was hardened by God, Davids heart was softened by God so that he would respond the way he did.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Dec 12, 2009 22:19:39 GMT -5
The Bible is clear that adulterers will not inherit the kingdom of God and murderers do not have eternal life abiding in them.... That is what Paul and John said. But if adulterers and murderers repent, they can be forgiven. If a believer becomes an adulterer or a murderer, they can be restored through repentance.
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Post by nazerite on Dec 14, 2009 23:15:30 GMT -5
When a person is born again and sealed with Holy Spirit, they will presevere untill the End becuase the Bibles says that they will. Although there are warnings of people in the Christian community falling away, it does mean that Christians can fall away from God's Love, for God keeps them. John 10 says that it is impossible for Christians to fall away. So to try to address the miscommunication an interpretation of whether a Christian can lose their salvation, I writen down the verses with explanations to show you that it is not possible for a Christian to loses his salvation.
The book of Hebrews warns us about failing to enter Gods rest as the Isaralites did when they disobeyed and disbelieved God in the wilderness.
1) God destroyed them many times becuase of Idol worship, grumbling, sexual immorality, and disbelief. If he didnt destroy them he punished them. Therfore they failed to enetr God's rest.
2.) First reason they failed: Hebrews says "they were unable to enter because of unbelief."
3) Second reason why they failed :Hebrew says "they failed to enter because of disobedience."
4) In contrast, those who have believed haved entered God's rest: a)"For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said,"As I swore in my wrath,'They shall not enter my rest,'" Hebrews 3
b) "But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls." Hebrews 10 :39
Lastly, you may ask why does he Paul encourage them to exhort eachother so that there may not be unbelieving heart, leading them to fall away from the living God.?
2.) Paul, in all his letters, tells Christians to presevere and warns them what will happen if they remain in sin, but he also comments how God is faithful to preserve them, as in this passage : Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. He who calls you is faithful HE WILL SURELY DO IT. 1 Thes 5 23
Although I believe that God will preseve me till the end, I still need the Bible to be encouraged an exhorted or I might harden my heart and sin greatly; thus, causing God to be angry with me so that he disciplens me as he did David. I dont fear hell. Again God will rebuke me as a Son, but not as an enemy.
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Dec 15, 2009 7:53:47 GMT -5
Although I believe that God will preseve me till the end, I still need the Bible to be encouraged an exhorted or I might harden my heart and sin greatly; thus, causing God to be angry with me so that he disciplens me as he did David. I dont fear hell. Again God will rebuke me as a Son, but not as an enemy. God preserves no Calvinists, only Christians!
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Post by nazerite on Dec 16, 2009 0:50:30 GMT -5
"Judge not, that you be not judged. "For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you."
Dont Judge me. God is my Judge not you!! That is not very nice. You put me in the same category as a non believer. I never said anything to you.
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Post by jasoncowan on Dec 26, 2009 17:59:00 GMT -5
perhaps we should consider the view of Paul Washer which I will summarize here....
If a person who believer themselves to be born again sins and continues in his sin....the mark that God has truly saved this person is that God will rebuke him and call him into repentance....but if he just sins, and sins, and sins and God does not go after him then he was never born again in the first place.
I don't know what is true or what I believe at this point as I am still searching the scriptures...but I offer this just as food for thought.
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Dec 26, 2009 19:52:49 GMT -5
If a person who believer themselves to be born again sins and continues in his sin....the mark that God has truly saved this person is that God will rebuke him and call him into repentance....but if he just sins, and sins, and sins and God does not go after him then he was never born again in the first place. It would appear that Mr. Washer is taking a purely shallow approach in judging the validity of this individuals sincerity. I.e. Jim, in his sincerity, believed on the Lord Jesus Christ when he heard the words of the Gospel preached, he then decided to repent of his sins and confess the Lord Jesus Christ before men, repenting and confessing, he was then baptized for the remission of his sin. However, Jim is now sinning so he must not have been sincere.His arguments built on a false premise. He presupposes that you can't lose your salvation. I.e. If Jim's sinning and God doesn't restore him then Jim was never saved The studious Bible student would ask "Why would you suppose that Mr. Washer? Didn't Jim believe, repent, confess and get baptized?" To which he would reply, "Jim couldn't have truly believed because you can't lose your salvation!" I believe this to be a very depressing doctrine. From this statement we can know that: - God's call is irresistible.
- God does not affectionately call everyone (If he did then everyone would repent.)
- God does not want everyone to be saved (If he did, he'd irresistibly call them.)
- Even if I did everything that the Bible said to do in order to be saved, I could still be lost and there's no way for me to know whether or not I am saved until the day that I die and am placed in the Hadean realm to be reserved until the day of judgment.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Dec 26, 2009 21:49:11 GMT -5
The Bible says that a genuine believer can lose his salvation (Eze. 3:20-21; 18:18-31; 33:12-20; Matt. 6:14-15; 10:22; 24:13; 24:48-51; 25:1-13; Mk. 4:16-19; 13:13; Jn. 6:66; 8:31; 15:6; Acts 1:25; 11:23; 13:43; 14:22; Rom. 8:13; 11:20-23; 1 Cor. 3:16-17; 6:9-10; 9:27; 10:5-13; 15:1-2; Gal. 5:4-9; 5:19-21; 6:7-9; Col. 1:21-23; 1 Thes. 3:5; 3:8; 2 Thes. 2:3; 1 Tim. 1:5-6; 1:18-20; 3:6; 4:1; 4:16; 5:15; 2 Tim. 2:12; 4:9-10; Heb. 2:1; 2:3; 3:6; 3:8-15; 3:18-19; 4:1; 4:11; 4:14; 6:1; 6:8; 6:11-12; 6:15; 10:23; 10:26-31; 10:35-39; 12:14-15; 12:25; Jas. 1:13-16; 5:19-20; 2 Pet. 1:9; 2:20-22; 3:17; Rev. 2:4-7; 2:10-11; 2:17; 2:25-26; 3:2-5; 3:10-12; 3:16; 3:19; 3:20; 21:8; 22:15).
The Bible speaks of Christians who have departed from the faith (Matt. 18:21-34; 24:10; Mk. 4:17; Lk. 8:13; Jn. 6:66; Acts 1:25 w. Matt. 19:28; 2 Thes. 2:3; 1 Tim. 1:19; 4:1; 2 Tim. 3:8; 4:10; Heb. 3:12-15; 4:1-11; 6:6; 10:29; 2 Pet. 2:20-22; Jud. 1:5).
We have the example of the unforgiving servant who was forgiven of his unpaid debt, but then later had his debt reinstated because of his immoral conduct (Matt. 18:23-35). This parable clearly shows how the Lord can graciously pardon an individual and then later execute the punishment that they deserve.
We also see the example of the Apostle Judas who lost his salvation. Judas was a disciple of the Lord and therefore he left all to follow Jesus (Lk. 14:33). He picked up his cross (Lk. 14:27) and even loved Jesus more then his own family (Lk. 14:26). Judas was picked by Jesus specifically to cast out devils, heal, and preach (Matt 10:1-27). Judas was a friend Jesus trusted (Ps. 41:9; Jn 13:18), so Judas kept the money (Jn. 12:6; 13:29). Jesus told Judas that He was shedding His blood for him (Lk. 22:14-20), and previously said that His name was written in the Lambs book of life (Lk. 10:20). Jesus even said that Judas was one of His sheep (Matt. 10:1-4, 16), who received His truth (Matt 10:1-4, 8), who’s Father was God (Matt 10:1-4, 20), who even had a throne in Heaven upon which he would judge Israel (Matt. 19:28; Lk. 22:30). But then later we see that Judas became a devil (Jn. 6:70) and therefore it would have been better for him to have never been born (Mk. 14:21). He even began to steal money from the group (Jn. 12:6). Judas fell from his apostleship by his transgression (Acts 1:25) because He failed to do what Jesus picked him for. His name was blotted out of the book of life (Ex. 23:33; Rev. 3:5). So we can see that the atonement does not automatically or unconditionally save anyone. Many of those for whom Christ died will ultimately perish for their sin (1 Cor. 8:11) because they choose to continue in their sin (Heb. 10:26-31). Though Christ died for all, many are on the broad road (Matt. 7:13). It’s possible to deny the Lord that bought us and thereby fall into condemnation (2 Pet. 2:1).
The wrath of God is impartial (Ex. 32:33; Deut. 10:17; Rom. 2:9; 2 Cor. 10:6; Col. 3:25; 2 Pet. 1:17; 1 Jn. 3:15; Rev. 21:8; 22:15), so anyone who consciously or knowingly transgresses or revolts is under condemnation (Jn. 3:19; Rom. 1:18; 2:6-11; Heb. 10:26-31; 1 Jn. 3:8; 3:15; 3:20; 2 Jn. 1:9) because God must uphold and enforce His laws as long as He is loving and caring, as long as He hates sin because He’s benevolent. But if backsliders repent (Lk. 13:3; Jas. 5:19-20) and seek forgiveness (Matt. 6:12; 1 Jn. 1:9), they can be restored (Ps. 51:9; Jer. 3:22; 4:1; Lk. 15:20; 22:32; Rom. 11:23; Jas. 5:19-20) unless they are apostates (Heb. 6:4-6; 2 Cor. 13:5; 2 Tim. 3:8; Titus 1:14-16), having grieved away the Spirit (Matt. 12:31-32; Eph. 4:30), having resisted (Acts 7:51) all possible influence (Heb. 6:4-6; 2 Tim. 3:8).
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