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Post by benjoseph on Jan 12, 2010 19:36:14 GMT -5
Is it ok for me to say this? "It is ridiculous to say that every human has sinned, there are probably many young people or children who have become morally accountable and have not done anything wrong. It is not inevitable that they WILL either. Hopefully they won't." To be consistent, I would have to allow for righteous old men and such as well.
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Post by logic on Jan 12, 2010 23:13:00 GMT -5
Is it ok for me to say this? "It is ridiculous to say that every human has sinned, there are probably many young people or children who have become morally accountable and have not done anything wrong. It is not inevitable that they WILL either. Hopefully they won't." To be consistent, I would have to allow for righteous old men and such as well. I would love to believe that there was a man besides Jesus who has never sinned. I like to think that Enoch or even Job never sinned. However, is there any way you can prove this? Especially when we have Solomon say, " For there is not a just man upon earth, that does good, and sins not." (Ecc 7:20) And his rhetorical question, " Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?" (Prov 20:9) Even more than those Scriptures, we Have King David saying, " there is no man that sins not" (1Kings 8:46) And lets not forget 1John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.If you have explainations for these verse, I would love to read them. I love your writing here: sites.google.com/site/benstenson/romans_3_9-30
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Post by benjoseph on Jan 13, 2010 2:02:38 GMT -5
I would love to believe that there was a man besides Jesus who has never sinned. I like to think that Enoch or even Job never sinned. However, is there any way you can prove this? I don't know yet. " For there is not a just man upon earth, that does good, and sins not." (Ecc 7:20) " there is no man that sins not" (1Kings 8:46) 1.1 Kings 8:46, 2 Chronicles 6:36 “...there is no man which sinneth not...”
Here's an adaptation from Finney's Systematic Theology - 1851 - Lecture 71
CLARKE "'If they sin against thee, for there is no man that sinneth not.' The second clause, as it is here translated, renders the supposition in the first clause, entirely nugatory; for, if there be no man that sinneth not, it is useless to say, if they sin; but this contradiction is taken away, by reference to the original ki yechetau lak, which should be translated, if they shall sin against thee; or should they sin against thee, ki ein adam asher lo yecheta; 'for there is no man that may not sin;' that is, there is no man impeccable, none infallible; none that is not liable to transgress. This is the true meaning of the phrase in various parts of the Bible, and so our translators have understood the original, for even in the thirty-first verse of this chapter, they have translated yecheta, if a man trespass; which certainly implies he might or might not do it; and in this way they have translated the same word, if a soul sin, in Lev. v. 1, and vi. 2; 1 Sam. ii. 25; 2 Chron. iv. 22; and in several other places. The truth is, the Hebrew has no mood to express words in the permissive or optative way, but to express this sense it uses the future tense of the conjugation kal.
... it only speaks of the possibility of every man's sinning ... There are too many who are seeking to excuse their crimes ... by stating that their sins are unavoidable."
BARCLAY "....Another objection is from two passages of scripture, much of one signification. The one is 1 Kings viii. 46: 'For there is no man that sinneth not.' The other is Eccl. vii. 20: 'For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good and sinneth not.'....I answer....this whole objection hangs upon a false interpretation; for the original Hebrew word may be read in the potential mood, thus,--There is no man who may not sin, as well as in the indicative; so both the old Latin, Junius, and Tremellius, and Vatablus have it, and the same word is so used, Ps. cxix. 11: 'Thy word have I hid in my heart, that I might not sin against thee'--in the potential mood, and not in the indicative; which being more answerable to the universal scope of the scriptures, the testimony of the truth, and the sense of almost all interpreters, doubtless ought to be so understood, and the other interpretation rejected as spurious." I wish I had shared that bit from Finney with you sooner. I was rejoicing in the Lord when I first read it. " Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?" (Prov 20:9) How then does James say "purify your hearts"?
Everybody knows they are able to make their heart clean from actual sin in the sense that they can remove sin from their heart by repenting. However, no man can remove the guilt of his sin by merely repenting. No man can make his heart clean (of guilt) once it has been defiled by sin. Only the blood of the Lord Jesus can do that! This shows that we need an atonement if we sin. The verse only applies to someone whose heart has already been defiled by their own sin. A silly analogy is if I asked "Who can wash automotive grease out of their jeans once they have been stained?" Not me, I need a saviour to buy me a whole new pair. But of course I could have avoided getting the stains. It wouldn't make the proverb any less valid or meaningful.
This proverb makes me think of the verse "without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins." It's like the mystery of Christ's atonement was hidden in this proverb.
This also shows the amazing faith that the saints had before Christ came. They were somewhat in the dark as to the answer to this question. We have the answer that they longed to know. Does our response compliment their patience and hope? And lets not forget 1John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.I'm sure someone will inevitably remind us. The standard interpretation of this makes it absolutely necessary that the very first moral choice a child makes is sinful. If they make their first choice lovingly they better not tell anyone 'cuz then they'll be a sinner for making God a liar. I've had the hardest time with this verse. More than any other. It's mainly because I'm not sure what the alternative (real) interpretation is. How exactly did John intend it? If I were to rephrase it to allow for other righteous people, how exactly would it read? I've got a few other notes on this verse that were encouraging to me: This passage shows that it is possible to obey God. (by definition of sin and need for forgiveness) It assumes and emphasizes the justice of God's requirements. (because sin needs forgiveness and we are instructed not to sin) It serves as a warning or judgment to people who have sinned.
If we say that our nature made us sin, we are saying that we have not sinned. (by definition of sin) If we say that our nature made us sin, we make God unjust. If we say that sinning was unavoidable or inevitable, we make him a liar. If we make excuses for our sin, his word is not in us. The intention of the text is to prevent sin “My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.” (1Jn2:1) This verse does not teach that sin is unavoidable. John implied the possibility of not sinning “And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:” (1Jn2:1) This passage does not say that everyone will sin in the future. (It does not say - if 'anyone ever' says they have not sinned)
I wish I had a better view of the 1 John passage. I think it's the only one I've got in the back of my mind now as far as inevitable sin goes. I have to say though, the idea that a child ALWAYS chooses evil before good really does seem stupid to me. What if their first moral action was to share something? Or to be careful not to hurt themselves? Or console a friend? or anything good basically? What would we tell them? "Now don't you dare tell anyone from our church that you just did a good job sharing your toy with your brother! I don't want little heretics for children!"yuck...right?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jan 13, 2010 16:51:22 GMT -5
I would say that nobody ever had to sin, and infants haven't sinned yet, but I have never met anyone who has come of age who hasn't sinned.
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